Will AT soldier AI ever be fixed?

[Trase 10]

I'm not the one to get mad at videogames, but this does make me mad quite a lot. How can a company make a complete campaign, update the map, add new vehicles, and still leave AT soldiers completely broke since alpha? The only related issue I found on the bug tracker is from mid 2013 and it's closed by the developer without any acknowledgement of the actual problem. Any mission where AI squad has to take out armor, or even a simple car, while detected, are impossible, unless that car is far away, and has not detected the squad. When spotted, they just run in circles, constantly going prone and standing up, not not even thinking about selecting their AT launcher for the first minute. Even if you spawn a "blind" enemy car, and a single AT soldier, he will spot it, run around on an open field like a moron for 20 seconds, and only then decides to shoot it. Right now I'm working on a mission that begins with an AI, 5 men AT team taking down a single ifrit gmg in a town. They all get confused and die to it without launching a single rocket, no matter how I placed my waypoints. Bohemia, please, I beg you! Mark this as a major problem in your list and fix it finally! Not everyone likes to play multiplayer exclusively.

[froggyluv 2136]

Shame this still exists as this can be an utter mission breaker and watching your 1 shot at defeating an enemy that will surely kill you drift off in indecisive ambiguity lists at the very top of gaming frustration. OFP most definitely handled this better and its high time for a "DO IT NOW!!!" command to override AI indecision.

[rübe 127]

While I'm not familiar with the AI in ArmA3 yet...

OFP most definitely handled this better and its high time for a "DO IT NOW!!!" command to override AI indecision.

...I'm not sure that this would already do the trick (or could even be implemented in the fashion you imagine).

Sure, sure, I get you:

AI run there NOW! :cry2:

AI shoot this - NOW! :936:

AI enter that vehicle - NNOOOWWW! :banghead:

But I don't think the real problem is that AI isn't doing, what they're supposed to do fast enough. Isn't the problem rather the fact, that (still) every single AI virtually runs the exactly same FSM, no matter if Grenadier, Machinegunner, AT-Dude or Pilot? While I can see the necessarity/appeal of a single, universal FSM, my guess is that this single FSM simply has grown way too complex. And then handling specific problems (such as AT vs tank) in a timely manner is extremely hard or even simply out of question.

I'm not sure how a units skills are implemented in or reflected by that universal FSM. But I can imagine that things could be much better with a more modular AI, if we could somehow stack FSM ontop of each other (say for single units, groups or even factions), starting with that universal FSM, but then switching to more appropriate/specific FSMs (depending on some kind of master/control FSM, ha). Which, of course, would need to be fully transparent/extensible.

Hm... pretty sure I've suggested something like this already a year (or two) ago. But I'm still convinced that ArmA needs a more modular AI that can be adapted/extended depending on the needs of your scenario or in general (think of general AI mods).

[sgtsev3n 12]

the AI will NEVER be fixed.

AI still sucks at driving and that since OFP.

there are so many things the AI can not use properly and that for 13 years, now you ask when the AT soldier AI will be fixed? answer is simple: no.

[froggyluv 2136]

Yes Ruebe are indeed correct on the all purpose FSM being an overbloated cover all systems solution while ignoring the nuances needed for individual patterns needed.

That said, the "Do it nao!!" Has merit as a short term solution as well. GL4 mod had that very command qualifier to get said troops where they needed to be with the quickness in a pretty efficient manner. I could see the "fire that at rocket NAO" saving many a frustrated gamer in those moments and more so their sanity.

Edited April 22, 2014 by froggyluv

[scajolly 14]

Is there no way to create more stylized, narrow-minded FSMs for when the mission editor truly isn't a raging baboon? I'd love a civilian driving AI that knew how to stay on the road, the right side of the road, observing signs and everything - even if it meant that once a shot was fired the behaviour would no longer seem 'realistic'. Safe-Aware-Danger-Stealth-Careless, perhaps it's sufficient for every day use, but it's so often not. A militia FSM that works differently to a conventional force-FSM, or an SF FSM, there are so many ways we could customize our way out of these horrid rabbitholes that the AI get stuck on!

[bullhorn 18]

I'll just leave this here

Edited April 22, 2014 by BullHorn

[Furret 0]

Trase, have you made a repo mission on the bug tracker we can vote up?

[Bouben 3]

Yes, AI AT sucks a lot. I am also getting tired of it.

Moreover, there is another bug that adds to this problem. Check my signature.

[Tankbuster 1746]

You people aren't seriously suggesting this should take priority over such gems from the recent changelogs such as recoloured fishing nets, the specularity of phone booths, the reversing of Bobcat suspension, a new rooster animal and the hours of work that went into naming a jet 'Wipeout'?

[Bouben 3]

You people aren't seriously suggesting this should take priority over such gems from the recent changelogs such as recoloured fishing nets, the specularity of phone booths, the reversing of Bobcat suspension, a new rooster animal and the hours of work that went into naming a jet 'Wipeout'?

It surprises me that a veteran forum member with 4600 + posts is unaware of the fact, that 3D artists, physX programmers and game designers are not able to fix AI issues.

But I understand that reading such a changelog while serious issues are still waiting to be fixed can be frustrating (it is frustrating for me too).

[Furret 0]

It surprises me that a veteran forum member with 4600 + posts is unaware of the fact, that 3D artists, physX programmers and game designers are not able to fix AI issues.

But I understand that reading such a changelog while serious issues are still waiting to be fixed can be frustrating (it is frustrating for me too).

Exactly, if you were building a house you wouldn't ask the plumber to wire up the house, or the decorator to install the plumbing.

[Tankbuster 1746]

It's sarcasm borne out of frustration, soldier. As you were.

[valnwt 11]

Like Furret said, do you have a repro mission. I've tried to recreate this behaviour but, in my game, the Ai does what it should.

[oukej 2911]

There are issues with target prioritization and switching we are aware of that may cause the AT guys look indecisive and disobedient or even cause a misfire.

[.kju 3245]

The biggest problem is that AI go into combat behavior when they become under fire/become aware of enemies nearby

AND

it takes often way too long for them to return to their normal behavior

AND

even as group leader you have no way to disable this (or via scripting).

It was a design choice introduced with micro AI by Suma back for A2 as far as I can tell.

Unfortunately despite the many good tickets in the CIT and high votes, he/BI was never willing to look into it.

I can only suspect it such deep rooted in the system that they don't feel comfortable to make any changes there.

[rübe 127]

;2673077']

it takes often way too long for them to return to their normal behavior

AND

even as group leader you have no way to disable this (or via scripting).

...so there is still no "All clear!" command in ArmA(3)? :confused:

This has always struck me as odd, how you have to (indefinitely) wait for some AI loon to yell "All clear" and things - finally - went back to normal (i.e. out of combat behaviour). Yet you, as player or even leader (or by means of scripting for that matter), have no option to do so at all.

[f2k sel 164]

You can force a sort of all clear but it's messy as it breaks waypoints or any group dependent commands we really should have a simple command that forces the AI to forget about the current situation and make a fresh evaluation of the current situation.

Basically you have to store the original group then have them all join grpnull and then reform the original group.(I did say it was messy but it's the only way I know to clear the Knowsabout and fix dotarget bug)

[st_dux 26]

;2673077']The biggest problem is that AI go into combat behavior when they become under fire/become aware of enemies nearby

AND

it takes often way too long for them to return to their normal behavior

AND

even as group leader you have no way to disable this (or via scripting).

It was a design choice introduced with micro AI by Suma back for A2 as far as I can tell.

Unfortunately despite the many good tickets in the CIT and high votes' date=' he/BI was never willing to look into it.

I can only suspect it such deep rooted in the system that they don't feel comfortable to make any changes there.[/quote']

You hit the proverbial nail on the head here. It baffles me that there is no way to override the auto-danger-mode behavior. It makes it very difficult to accomplish some very basic things.

Any devs want to chime in here? Why is there no way to force an "Aware" behavior mode for AI units?

[froggyluv 2136]

Any devs want to chime in here? Why is there no way to force an "Aware" behavior mode for AI units?

Would be nice if this was tied to troops and/or squad leader skill ie... "Get back in line!"

Either way, this issue is really big to some (ok, me!) as nothing kills your enjoying your tactical assault when a perfectly placed AT soldier just refuses to fire on a vulnerable tank facing the other way. It's this exact reason I quit playing the game for good during the 2nd mission or so of the second campaign chapter. Clear shot from under 50m out with all my men well placed but not only does he refuse to take the shot, he wanders a strange 100m circumventing and actually places himself in plain view, alerting the tank to him and the rest of my squads existence. :(

I know they had no plans for an AI overhaul but was sure the "streamlining" would include enormous,fundamental issues such as this.

[down8 30]

Either way, this issue is really big to some (ok, me!) as nothing kills your enjoying your tactical assault when a perfectly placed AT soldier just refuses to fire on a vulnerable tank facing the other way. It's this exact reason I quit playing the game for good during the 2nd mission or so of the second campaign chapter. Clear shot from under 50m out with all my men well placed but not only does he refuse to take the shot, he wanders a strange 100m circumventing and actually places himself in plain view, alerting the tank to him and the rest of my squads existence. :(

This. It's very frustrating. I'm not even asking that AI to take the initiative, but at least obbey your commands, taking them the higher priority. With this simple overhaul, the SP would be much more enjoyable.

[pooroldspike 129]

I find it's often best to just let your AI's get on with the job without confusing them too much with orders like Stealth, Aware, Cautious etc etc.

There are also facts to be taken into consideration like whether we're playing in High Command mode, and what the chain of command is, etc.

If I knew how to recreate the exact setup that's giving some people trouble, I'd run some tests.

All I know is that if I order my bots to move to a point from where they'll be able to see an enemy tank or vehicle, they'll kneel and fire their AT missiles at it within seconds.

On the defensive you don't even have to order them to move anywhere because they'll fire missiles as soon as they see the enemy.

[DMW 10]

Here's one,

Made a D-Day like mission setup, amphibious sea assault from Gordons and Hunters etc, setup a load of enemy AT on the beach, expected - and hoped to see carnage.

What actually happens is the AT missiles still go for centre-mass even though the vehicle is in the water and floating, thus all the missiles hit the water before any amphibious vehicle - and explode, thus all vehicles in water are invulnerable to locked on AT missiles.... (not tested ATGMs from aircraft though)

[pooroldspike 129]

..the AT missiles still go for centre-mass even though the vehicle is in the water and floating, thus all the missiles hit the water before any amphibious vehicle - and explode, thus all vehicles in water are invulnerable to locked on AT missiles..

Yeah bots are dumb shits but I try to look on the bright side and regard it as a challenge to my commanding ability to get the bots under my command to perform halfway intelligently.

But if we're attacking against a bot army, it's a piece of cake to trash them and not much of a challenge.

I played hundreds of play-by-email Combat Mission games over the past 10 years against human enemies, but with realtime games like Arma3 we have to play singleplayer against stupid bots most of the time, so I'm trying to find a server to hop into where my teammates and the enemy will all be human..:)

"Those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, care for nothing else thereafter"- Ernest Hemingway

Edited April 24, 2014 by PoorOldSpike