DirecxtX 12 for ArmA 3?

[PuFu 4600]

I'm fairly certain it's confirmed at least for Arma 3.

You don't seem to grasp what "confirmed" means. It means someone from BI development stating - we have DX12 succesfully implemented into the game (or in fact we have succesfully ported RV engine to DX12). It isn't the case.

I don't get why some of you lads create this sort of "confirmed" status for stuff that isn't.

Otherwise, they wouldn't have mentioned it the way they did.

and what is this way they did?

Nailing it down means getting it seemlessly integrated, which would be great.

Is there any other way to integrate something like DX12? What is the alternative of not "seemlessly"? DX 11.72?

They have plenty of time to do that, as the Expansion, which their main focus for DX12 is centered on, is scheduled for next year first half.

No one else ever said they don't have the time, or the experience or the workforce for it. But that doesn't mean it is confirmed....

[mr_centipede 31]

Is there any game out there already with DX12? is DX12 already out? Does my vid card support DX12? Is there anything a user need to prepare for this DX12?

[PuFu 4600]

all dx11.x ready gfx cards are also dx12 ready. You need windows 10 though

[Brisse 78]

Is there any game out there already with DX12? is DX12 already out? Does my vid card support DX12? Is there anything a user need to prepare for this DX12?

Dx12 is included in Windows 10 Technical Preview, and Windows 10 is close to being released. Both AMD and Nvidia have implemented Dx12 in their Win10 drivers. The only way to test Dx12 right now is with 3DMark benchmark software, but some games currently in development with Dx12 will go beta or early access close to Win10 release. There are plenty of games with Dx12 set for release later this year or early next year. Looks like Dx12 is being adopted pretty fast by game developers.

[vegeta897 13]

and what is this way they did?

BI have repeatedly said that they no longer want to mention any features or enhancements that they are not sure of, due to past disappointments, such as Java as you've pointed out. Java falling through was part of the reason why they are more careful with what they announce now. So using it as an example of how things they announce are not confirmations is kind of flawed logic. It's an outdated precedent that completely ignores the new information we've had since then. Anything they announce at E3 is going to be put under a microscope and they know that. They were reckless in the past and have learned from that mistake, and have repeatedly told us they do not want to repeat that mistake. This is as confirmed as confirmed can be without actually having it running in our clients.

Is there any other way to integrate something like DX12? What is the alternative of not "seemlessly"? DX 11.72?

How about bugs? A seamless integration would be one with no bugs or issues. Are you aware that it is possible to have a buggy or problematic implementation of DX12 (or any technology/API, for that matter)?

[linuxmaster9 101]

Is there any other way to integrate something like DX12? What is the alternative of not "seemlessly"? DX 11.72?

The excellent alternative to DX12 is/was Vulkan which btw, does not require WinX and works across multiple architectures and operating systems.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

You don't seem to grasp what "confirmed" means. It means someone from BI development stating - we have DX12 succesfully implemented into the game (or in fact we have succesfully ported RV engine to DX12). It isn't the case.

I don't get why some of you lads create this sort of "confirmed" status for stuff that isn't.

Well i suppose your right. But how do you know the preview of Tanoa wasn't secretly filmed on a secret internal build of Arma 3 running on Windows 10? =P (it's possible)

I do however think there's a 99.9% chance we will get DX12 anyway, as BIS is indeed working to get it integrated with the Expansion, and the Expansion isn't standalone, it'll be just another Arma 3 Update, meaning that DX12 will be entire Arma 3 platform integrated if everything goes as planned. So technically Confirmed. =P

[PuFu 4600]

Well i suppose your right. But how do you know the preview of Tanoa wasn't secretly filmed on a secret internal build of Arma 3 running on Windows 10? =P (it's possible)

i don't. On the other hand, i am pretty sure it won't be DX12 exclusive, since i doubt everyone will make the transition to windows 10 in 1 year, and since i am certain that DX12 will be kept windows 10 exclusively (as an incentive to attract the flock to upgrade), it doesn't matter if that video is on DX12 or 11 tbh.

Besides, although i usually don't link VBS3 vids, it is still the same core engine beneath, even if it is run by a different company nowadays -

- this is surely not dx12 btw Edited June 19, 2015 by PuFu

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

i don't. On the other hand, i am pretty sure it won't be DX12 exclusive, since i doubt everyone will make the transition to windows 10 in 1 year, and since i am certain that DX12 will be kept windows 10 exclusivly (as an incentive to attract to flock to upgrade), it doesn't matter if that video is on DX12 or 11 tbh.

Besides, although i usually don't link VBS3 vids, it is still the same core engine beneath, even if it is run by a different company nowadays -

- this is surely not dx12 btw

Ahh, good points.

[windies 11]

How is DX12 gonna be a kick in performance since we're majority limited by the engine and not by the API? Didn't they say the same thing about DX11 in ArmA 3? Highly doubt a new API is the savior to A3's woe's, be happy if I'm wrong I just seriously doubt it.

[fareast 20]

How is DX12 gonna be a kick in performance since we're majority limited by the engine and not by the API? Didn't they say the same thing about DX11 in ArmA 3? Highly doubt a new API is the savior to A3's woe's, be happy if I'm wrong I just seriously doubt it.

dx11 does boost arma 3 fps..switch to dx9 mode and try it yourself

[calin_banc 19]

Is there any game out there already with DX12? is DX12 already out? Does my vid card support DX12? Is there anything a user need to prepare for this DX12?

From nvidia you need at least a GPU from Fermi upwards, from AMD any GCN + win 10.

Edited June 20, 2015 by calin_banc

[mr_centipede 31]

Thanks guys. I just upgraded my gfx card to R9 280, and then this DX12 and new R9 300 series comes out.... I thought I was a bummer for sure. Glad I just need WinX to be able to use DX12

[Brisse 78]

Thanks guys. I just upgraded my gfx card to R9 280, and then this DX12 and new R9 300 series comes out.... I thought I was a bummer for sure. Glad I just need WinX to be able to use DX12

Don't worry, you are not missing out on much. The R9 300 series is just old GCN cards with a new package and in some cases more memory, and slightly higher clocks.

Here's an overview of DX12 compatibility on the red team:

Radeon HD 7000 series GCN 1.0 DX12, feature level 11_1

Radeon HD 7790 GCN 1.1 DX12, feature level 12_0

Radeon R7 260 (X) &360 GCN 1.1 DX12, feature level 12_0

Radeon R9 270 (X) & 370 GCN 1.0 DX12, feature level 11_1

Radeon R9 280 (X) GCN 1.0 DX12, feature level 11_1

Radeon R9 285 & 380 GCN 1.2 DX12, feature level 12_0

Radeon R9 290 & 390 (X) GCN 1.1 DX12, feature level 12_0

[I give up 152]

Again, DirectX 12 is merely a marketing action performed by Microsoft motivated by financial and economic reasons.

And a very smart one, I have to say.

After the Windows 8 flop, only 18% of Windows clients are using Windows 8 (that's why is a flop) Microsoft had to do something.

Dam.. what to do now without admitting the failure and lose more money? Simple solution came to their minds (for bright minds there is always a solution).

Let's grab Xbox API and let's call it DirectX 12, let's grab Windows 8 and call it Windows 10. Everyone will be drooling after hearing DirectX 12 reference and they will run to grab Windows 10 and its a win.

Like I said the guy(s) who had this idea deserve a statue in Wall Street, it's just brilliant.

Now for common people, its good or bad? Probably (just probably) in matters of performance will be positive but in matters of quality it will be a pure deception.

The last guy who was able to make miracles (for free) died 2000 years ago.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Bratwurste

[vran. 13]

I think people will never be pleased with performance in ArmA. Add too many AI units, too big view distance, too detailed terrain and you kill performance on any system. DX12 will bring improvements in that more will be possible to achieve on same hardware, but it won't make the game magically perform amazingly. For that, a radical overhaul of the core engine would be needed and I don't think that will happen very soon. Also note that under that 'overhauling' also belong things like more confined (smaller) maps, more scripted (non independant) AI, heavy LOD system and auto adjustable VD. This is what every other developer is doing to keep performance good while maintaining steady framerates with good graphic detail. It's not progressive but it's effective.

[I give up 152]

dx11 does boost arma 3 fps..switch to dx9 mode and try it yourself

This is total biased and fake information. I am sorry.

If you want to compare Chernarus performance between DX9 and DX11, just grab Arma 2 and Arma 3.

This is not cool.

[calin_banc 19]

Again, DirectX 12 is merely a marketing action performed by Microsoft motivated by financial and economic reasons.

And a very smart one, I have to say.

After the Windows 8 flop, only 18% of Windows clients are using Windows 8 (that's why is a flop) Microsoft had to do something.

Dam.. what to do now without admitting the failure and lose more money? Simple solution came to their minds (for bright minds there is always a solution).

Let's grab Xbox API and let's call it DirectX 12, let's grab Windows 8 and call it Windows 10. Everyone will be drooling after hearing DirectX 12 reference and they will run to grab Windows 10 and its a win.

Like I said the guy(s) who had this idea deserve a statue in Wall Street, it's just brilliant.

Now for common people, its good or bad? Probably (just probably) in matters of performance will be positive but in matters of quality it will be a pure deception.

The last guy who was able to make miracles (for free) died 2000 years ago.

The performance difference between DX11.x and Mantle in BF can be quite big (and consider that's one of the most optimized engine out there). Low level APIs have their own advantages and will be faster than "regular" DX11 or prior, in scenarios for which that game is actually made.

Edited June 21, 2015 by calin_banc

[das attorney 858]

DX12 looks boring for Arma 3.

They will shoehorn it in for the expansion but I believe it will make bugger-all difference in practical terms as it doesn't address the actual performance problems of Arma. YMMV...

[Brisse 78]

If you think Mantle was good in BF, try Thief! It's amazingly well optimized on Mantle and literally doubled my average framerate compared to Dx11.

And yes, Dx12 is used for marketing purposes, as M$ really want to push Win10 the as many people as possible, even going as far as giving out free keys to 7 and 8 users. However, that does not make Dx12 a bad upgrade. If it's anything like Mantle, then I can tell you it's going to do some magic. It's just sad that it's a Win10 exclusive, and that's 100% marketing reasons. They want to push Win10 down everyone's throat. Otherwise we could have gotten Dx12 on Win 7 and 8. Then again, those who choose to stay on 7 and 8 will still be able to enjoy Mantle and Vulkan which does exactly the same thing as Dx12.

About Dx12 on Arma: I doubt it will give us much of a boost. Graphics isn't the bottleneck in Arma.

[PuFu 4600]

@brisse - what you don't get is that DX12 allows proper multi-thread use, as well as proper "talk" between your GPU and CPU, which is really limited today with DX11. That is also the idea behind Vulkan and Mantle. And due to that, i think ArmA is the perfect game that could really take advantage of it.

The DX12 being kept to Win10 (which is a free update for everyone owning 7 and 8) is a normal move if you ask me. They wanna direct their bussines towards free OS upgrades and updates, similar to both unix and OSX model. Also, allowing everyone (or so far almost everyone, i am not sure of the retail price for win10 so far, but i expect it to be a lot less than 8 is at the moment) is a better strategy, since you can push all updates to everyone, rather than just a small portion of your users.

I really don't see DX12 loosing too much ground anytime soon. Everyone into games and making games uses Windows either way. That comes from someone who uses both OSX and Windows for leisure and building, on a daily basis.

[Wiki 1558]

Will DX12 for the expansion only, or will it also work for ArmA 3 core?

[PuFu 4600]

Will DX12 for the expansion only, or will it also work for ArmA 3 core?

I would assume the expansion will work in similar ways OA worked for A2, minus the fact that it won't be standalone.

In short, in short the exe will be most likely be DX12, and the shaders would suffer an update for the entire thing. (i would assume the material files would stay the same, and only the shaders get an update).

[Brisse 78]

@brisse - what you don't get is that DX12 allows proper multi-thread use, as well as proper "talk" between your GPU and CPU, which is really limited today with DX11

What I don't get? Are you kidding? I think your comment was aimed at Bratwurste, not me. I know exactly what the idea behind Mantle, Vulkan and Dx12 is. You don't have to tell me.

At the surface, it might look like Arma3 is the perfect scenario to employ the new API, but if you dive deeper into the technicalities of it, you will see that it is not so obvious after all. Dx12 will multi-thread the API that feeds information to the GPU, yes, but it cannot magically multi-thread the simulation aspects (physics, ballistics, AI etc.) of the game.

What it will do is a very slight boost to framerate, and perhaps the ability to place more objects in the environment which should come in handy for Tanoa, which has very dense vegetation.

[PuFu 4600]

What I don't get? Are you kidding? I think your comment was aimed at Bratwurste, not me. I know exactly what the idea behind Mantle, Vulkan and Dx12 is. You don't have to tell me.

really? see below:

About Dx12 on Arma: I doubt it will give us much of a boost. Graphics isn't the bottleneck in Arma.

At the surface, it might look like Arma3 is the perfect scenario to employ the new API, but if you dive deeper into the technicalities of it, you will see that it is not so obvious after all. Dx12 will multi-thread the API that feeds information to the GPU, yes, but it cannot magically multi-thread the simulation aspects (physics, ballistics, AI etc.) of the game.

What it will do is a very slight boost to framerate, and perhaps the ability to place more objects in the environment which should come in handy for Tanoa, which has very dense vegetation.

The 2 main issues with ArmA performance comes from 2 things:

1. the inability to multithread independent aspects of the game - from AI simulation to game simulation (physics is a non issue in terms of performanc btw) - this has been explained that is hardly achievable since things get queued up rather than work in tandem

2. the inability to cache the enormous amounts of data that is is use (3d files, textures etc). This is why a SSD helps soo much. because it allows faster read those files. This is something than without some work to the engine, not even a 64bit binary would help with

More objects doesn't always and not necessary means more draw calls. Also, those larger draw calls are not handled ONLY by the GPU, at least not in RV they are not.

I am still waiting to get an updated UE4 engine (seems Q4 2015 - https://trello.com/c/BQFZD0pl/204-dx12-support) to mess with DX12 and make a comparisson in terms of how things are handled. So far both you and myself are speculating numbers based on the information found on the web (from press to tech docs).