Ukraine General

[astral4eg 10]

Starts again Stalin-gulag-repression :plain:

significant to say is that Sweden exported steel for Hitler too

also some US corporations have collaborated with Hitler, even during the war, such as Henry Ford.

so it is just Soviet propaganda that they fought with Hitler , yes, they fought ... from June 1941

before 1941 it was different, Czechoslovakia was attacked in 1938, Poland in 1939, France and Benelux 1940, and there was cooperation between Third Reich and USSR which later build their education on "fight with nazis"

yet was the Munich Agreement (1938), before Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (1939)by results of which the British have given Czechoslovakia to Hitler.

Edited April 19, 2015 by astral4eg

[ProfTournesol 956]

You cannot compare what happened in Munich with the cooperation between USSR and Nazi Germany before 1941.

In France in 1940, for example, the communist party was favoring the lack of resistance against the Nazis, and several communists were arrested by the French police because they were trying to stop the French soldiers from fighting against the Nazis. What's ironic is that after the French defeat, some of those communists have been executed along with "real" resistance guys by the Nazis.

Edited April 19, 2015 by ProfTournesol

[Rydygier 1309]

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (1939)

But how do you think, astral4eg, was this collaboration of Stalin/USSR with Hitler/Nazi Germany good thing, or bad thing?

[astral4eg 10]

But how do you think, astral4eg, was this collaboration of Stalin/USSR with Hitler/Nazi Germany good thing, or bad thing?

as history has shown - very bad

[Rydygier 1309]

OK, but why "history has shown"? If history wouldn't turn that way, it would be a good thing, so USSR allied with Nazis? I was asking in moral/ethical meaning, not political - no matter, how it turn out, was this good or bad, to help such a criminals (Nazi ideology was known in 1939, it wasn't really any surprise, that turn out later, although some didn't wanted to believe, they was serious). Question is rhetorical of course, as obviously disgraceful and stupid was alike, what western govs did in Munich (and what they didn't a year later) and what USSR government did in 1939 and later, until Germans attacked them. Problem is, when one is asking a Russian about the latter, often instead of clear answer on the question there is only an immediate distraction, shifting the topic to the other countries to avoid the answer, like you did above, which is tiring and annoying, to be honest. I may be mistaken, but seems to me, Russians may have even bigger difficulties than other nations in acknowledgement of dark parts of own nation's history. Wanted to check this.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Rydygier

[Dwarden 1125]

I would not be shocked if Hitler and Stalin actually for time being planned invasion of Turkey, North Europe and Uk/France together as 'allies'

hence why Stalin issued order to seal all archives for 100 years ...

[mistyronin 1181]

Another new Dispatch is out (105). Can't link to it again.

Really interesting one.

Specially the dialog between the old lady and the Russian officer.

[Sub-Human 10]

yet was the Munich Agreement (1938), before Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (1939)by results of which the British have given Czechoslovakia to Hitler.

The Molotov-Ribbentrop catalysed WW2 as we know it - the deadliest war in history. The Munich Agreement simply postponed it. Big difference. If Stalin co-operated with the Allies from the get-go the Nazis wouldn't have established strong friendship in Europe and the war wouldn't last nearly as long.

[Tonci87 163]

The Molotov-Ribbentrop catalysed WW2 as we know it - the deadliest war in history. The Munich Agreement simply postponed it. Big difference. If Stalin co-operated with the Allies from the get-go the Nazis wouldn't have established strong friendship in Europe and the war wouldn't last nearly as long.

Without the assurance that they are safe from the east the nazis wouldn´t even have invaded Poland and risked a war with France and the UK

[Dwarden 1125]

and w/o Munich the Nazis would think way longer about invading CSR :)

[vilas 477]

Without the assurance that they are safe from the east the nazis wouldn´t even have invaded Poland and risked a war with France and the UK

and Poland knowing danger had very serious rising budget for army and preparing for war ca. 1940 plus planning military shopping in France for late 1939/early 1940

war in 1939 was unexpected , it was of course much harder when Poland get backstabbed by USSR 2 weeks after (Hitler invaded 1st Sept, USSR 17th Sept)

there were plans for big modernization of Polish army for late 1939, simply Hitler acted faster and Poland fought on 2 fronts - USSR and Third Reich

[Tonci87 163]

and Poland knowing danger had very serious rising budget for army and preparing for war ca. 1940 plus planning military shopping in France for late 1939/early 1940

war in 1939 was unexpected , it was of course much harder when Poland get backstabbed by USSR 2 weeks after (Hitler invaded 1st Sept, USSR 17th Sept)

there were plans for big modernization of Polish army for late 1939, simply Hitler acted faster and Poland fought on 2 fronts - USSR and Third Reich

Poland was in an impossible position. I think that without the Soviet interference the Polish army might even have been able to fight the germans to a standstill if the British and French put some serious pressure on them from the west. However they simply could not fight a war on two fronts. As it was, the rapid victory in Poland allowed Germany to transfer experienced troops to France and beat them quite fast, leaving Britain quite alone in Europe.

[vilas 477]

i do not know how would WW2 look if USSR not attacked Poland

Polish army back than was rather parade-army, because we put too much bureaucracy and officers to army, but they were starting modernization, in first week of war Hitler hit in moment when Polish army was starting production of new rifle that had to replace Mauser and was seting production lines for new tanks

German army was very modern, very good equiped, so they were very strong and had blitzkrieg tactics, probably Hitler would won ,

change of situation would be if France invaded Third Reich on second front with UK, but western press was full of "we will not die for Danzig" articles , and they paid price for their waiting

[oxmox 73]

Double murder of Maidan opponents: Ukrainian nationalists boast with attacks (Spiegel - google. transl)

Two days after the murder of pro-Russian opposition Ukrainian group to the deeds committed - and announces further on. Thus disproving the theory that Russia could be behind the attacks.

A nationalist group called the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) has claimed responsibility for the murder of Ukrainian opposition. This is evident from e-mails to the opposition bloc in parliament were addressed and the Kiev political analyst Vladimir Fesenko.

In the email, the organization threatened to kill more "anti-Ukrainian" people, if they do not leave the country within 72 hours. The ultimatum runs out on Monday night.

On Wednesday, two prominent Maidan critics were killed within a few hours: the pro-Russian journalist Oles Busina and ex-deputy Oleg Kalashnikov , once a leading official of the "Party of Regions" of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych .

In recent months, several former allies Yanukovych had already been killed under suspicious circumstances, the speculation about the perpetrators triggered.

The name of Ukrainian Insurgent Army plays on a nationalist western Ukrainian partisan organization during and after the Second World War. The members were responsible for the massacre of Poles and Jews in 1943 in Volhynia.

-----------

Actually when it comes to the deaths of such oppositionists mostly politicians but also a journalist recently, it is rather not believeable that so many died in such a short time just by suicide. It smells like a political purge.

Edited April 20, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

Double murder of Maidan opponents: Ukrainian nationalists boast with attacks (Spiegel - google. transl)

Two days after the murder of pro-Russian opposition Ukrainian group to the deeds committed - and announces further on. Thus disproving the theory that Russia could be behind the attacks.

A nationalist group called the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) has claimed responsibility for the murder of Ukrainian opposition. This is evident from e-mails to the opposition bloc in parliament were addressed and the Kiev political analyst Vladimir Fesenko.

In the email, the organization threatened to kill more "anti-Ukrainian" people, if they do not leave the country within 72 hours. The ultimatum runs out on Monday night.

On Wednesday, two prominent Maidan critics were killed within a few hours: the pro-Russian journalist Oles Busina and ex-deputy Oleg Kalashnikov , once a leading official of the "Party of Regions" of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych .

In recent months, several former allies Yanukovych had already been killed under suspicious circumstances, the speculation about the perpetrators triggered.

The name of Ukrainian Insurgent Army plays on a nationalist western Ukrainian partisan organization during and after the Second World War. The members were responsible for the massacre of Poles and Jews in 1943 in Volhynia.

-----------

Actually when it comes to the deaths of such oppositionists mostly politicians but also a journalist recently, it is rather not believeable that so many died in such a short time just by suicide. It smells like a political purge.

Yeah I agree, the question is if this is sanctioned by the state or if it´s a bunch of idiots on a rampage.

[vilas 477]

Yeah I agree, the question is if this is sanctioned by the state or if it´s a bunch of idiots on a rampage.

it is simply part of justice

many times in history politicians and servants of regimes, dictators, corrupted bribes-receiving people never met justice,

only after WW2 some nazis get justice, but a lot not,

i call it justice, just revenge,

politicans living from taxes ARE servants of nation in democracy and they must know it ,

it is not feudalism anymore that people are servants of king, nobles, counts,

if nation doesn't show politician his limits - than politician limits society,

Ukraine were maybe the most corrupted country in Europe, more corrupted than Russia, Poland, Italy taken together ,

politicians who led such system must pay bill for their deeds, to be sure than next politicians will not take bribe (not because they are honest, but because they are afraid, because there are no honest politicians , most of politicians have brains like criminals, they only look how to steal you, police shoot bandits who want to steal from you (in ideal world) but politicians piss on people and steal much more than usual bandit from the street )

because of Yanuk Ukraine is almost bankrupted country , it is hard to find any other punishment for destroying country and such scale of corruption (in many countries death is the punishment for crimes against state existence):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Oksana_Makar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

as you know Poland borders with Ukraine, because of war many Ukrainians look for job here in my city, i know personally 2 of them which work cleaning our building, i was talking with them, they all tell similar stories of corruption like "guy drives 120 km/h in town when limit is 50 km/h, kills pedestrian, nothing happens cause he is son of local politician, local judge" or "guy is drunk and shoot someone by mistake and nothing happens" < such things are unforgivable and must be punished , if current rule of Ukraine is also oligarch (Petroshenko is not "voice of nation" , he is simply very very rich businesman) , than people look for justice themselves ,

if state doesn't have functioning justice, than people start to make justice, thats why in soviet block and post soviet block gun control is so strict, to make thieves and murderers from commie services live on good pension,

it was Ukraine in Yanuk rule , in Timoshenko rule, Oligarchy, untouchable cast of rich guys above any law who can rape, murder and all is okay,

to have functioning state and some moral principles - evil must be punished

who will punish corrupted politicians?

Russia ? Yanuk lives there in palace for stolen money

west ? such people in the west move to some country, put stolen money on bank account, and they live as respected rich people happy, how much kids of oligarchs , mafia from Russia, Ukraine live in the west ? a lot , they have no problems, they live good, while people starved because of them,

there must be punishment for corruption , if state doesn't provide it, than people from nation start, cause politicians care only about business, they do not care about feel of justice and punishment

you Tonci once wrote you had accident being struck by car when you driven bike, by someone who due to corruption avoided justice,

you should understand those people

i had burglary, burglar never get prison, i understand those people

Edited April 21, 2015 by vilas

[astral4eg 10]

Double murder of Maidan opponents: Ukrainian nationalists boast with attacks (Spiegel - google. transl)

Two days after the murder of pro-Russian opposition Ukrainian group to the deeds committed - and announces further on. Thus disproving the theory that Russia could be behind the attacks.

Personal details of murdered journalist & ex-MP found posted on Ukrainian 'enemies of state' database [rt]

unfortunately other major pro-Russian english-language media I do not know.

Interestingly, domain is registered on a porn star, and physically located not in Ukraine, in Dallas

This site contains about 20,000 profiles with the names, phone numbers, addresses of residence of Ukrainian citizens, which the government considers enemies of the nation, on it were published profiles of journalists killed.

Edited April 21, 2015 by astral4eg

[oxmox 73]

it is simply part of justice

i call it justice, just revenge,

Are you sure you know what means justice in our democratic rule of laws, your definition of murders sound like from a pitiful extremist....unbelieveable.

Corruption is still a big problem in the Ukraine and it remains as the most corrupt country in Europe dude.....

[vilas 477]

they have to fight with corrupted politicians if state doesn't fight them

state is corrupted cause one oligarch replaced another oligarch to be replaced by another oligarch

Timoshenko > Yanuk > Poroshenko

they all are oligarchs,

democracy is system in which will of nation, will of majority rules,

not will of few businessmen and small group of mafia

democratic law is law that realizes/executes will of majority taxpayers, not system which realize/executes will of few businesmen

it is not democracy when 80% people want to put someone in prison and because of business relation someone is free (although proofs are solid to imprison someone)

read once again wikipedia if you ignore it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Oksana_Makar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

such system is not democratic, in which people's will is completly ignored,

democracy is system in which state realize/executes will of majority of voting taxpayers

those executions are just showing weakness of state organs, weakness of courts

like in Poland, in 1989 nothing changed, system yeeee but people who were stealing - left with stolen money, noone took away stolen goods,

commie intel officers just changed name from "colonel, major, lieutnant, general" to "CEO, director, chairman"

Ukrainians know it

Ukrainians know what happened in Poland 25 years ago, commuism fallen, but communist criminals were never punished,

they died from age with big retirement pensions muuuuuch bigger than usual man have (army pension of general, colonel)

almost noone from communist criminals met justice after 1989

system changed from one to another, people who commited crimes - remained untouched

officers who were ordering to shoot protesters in 1970, 1980 nowadays have pension 5 times bigger than rest of people cause it is general's (military rank) pension (retired after 1989)

crimes must be punished, courts should do it, for commies, for corrupted yanuk officers - there should be what met nazis in 1946, what met Serbian leaders,

but i know how it looks

my mother was in Solidarity, she had court case in 1982 as person from Solidarity,

judge who sentenced her in 1982, was only promoted to be vice-chairman of court few years ago, now she has 3000 Euro pension, my mother has 6 times less

many of commies who were torturing people in Stalin era - if not emigrated to Sweden (where crimes against humanity lapses after 30 years so from Swedish point of view their crimes lapsed) or Israel - live peacefully with changed names to protect their privacy, some also found hide in UK , and UK refused extradition,

this should not be like that

this should end like Nuremberg Trials , but in conditions of Ukraine noone wants it,

cause corrupted judges first take bribes from Timoshenko, than from Yanuk party members, nowadays probably from current oligarchs who rule in Ukraine

there is far to transparency and good working legal system there - so people start to look for justice themselves like in Africa like in Wild West

human race and UN should have Norimberg on and on and on

for Putin for Chechnya, for Bush for Iraq, for other leaders, for banksters for "Crisis", for whole Wall Street,

it is simply lack of proper function of state and Ukrainians learn from Polish mistakes in 1989-2015 period of time

for them Yanuk made similar stuff which in Poland Jaruzelski made

"joke is" that noone from Jaruzelski government never get any real sentence, all those guys live now like nothing happened, old officers on big retirement which you can only dream (usual salary is 3-4 times lower than their pension), Jaruzelski died from old age, Kiszczak never visits any court, he has "dacha" (cottage) and he lives normally getting pension of general of army

murderers of priest Popiełuszko who were commie agents - get changed personalities , they live under new identities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Popie%C5%82uszko

murderers of other opposition leaders never punished

Ukrainians know it , they are not blind, they can google it

moreover, some Stalin criminals are nowadays "heroes"

http://beatroot.blogspot.com/2006/08/uk-refuses-extradition-to-poland-of.html

http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/polish-victims-of-ida-heroine-speak-up.html

http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/torture-methods-of-ub.html

they never get punished , their historical role is now capsized in some movies winning oscars

will Poroshenko change Ukraine ? or simply another oligarch replaced previous ones (but he is simply pro-west)

so people in Ukraine are desperated seeing this all : fall of state, corruption that probably not ended, previous regime guys in luxury cars while average people are starving, war, conscript , history of Poland's freedom

----- EDIT -----------

now something about Poroshenko from Polish mainstream press :

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/poroszenko-pomimo-wojny-prowadzi-interesy-z-rosja/m0dfx

"in west Poroshenko is shown as shining armor knight but in fact he is simply businessmen, his companies deal with Russian market , while his soldiers are sent to front without helmets and beg abroad to get old helmets, he doesn't touch other oligarchs , oligarchs are untouchable, Ukrainian society see how now Poroshenko doesn't keep pre-voting promisses, he keeps those companies which he promissed to sell before elections, his companies still do business with Russian oligarchs, people in Kiev know about it"

so you see problem is that west and east (Russia, Serbia vs US, EU) see Ukrainian situation as that new government is "bad , facists" or "super, great, freedom defender" etc.

nope, it is not that simple,

it is still problematic, so there you go - far right looks for justice

cause probably one businesman replaced others, or it is like with Saudi Arabia - although they are doing the same what Iran (Sharia), they are shown in media opposite, because one buys Abrams tanks, M4, F16, Bradley, Eurofighters, Eurocopters

--------

so probably those killings are because in Ukraine not too much changed for usual people and their feelings about justice, usual people do not trust new government much more than previous one,

it is all among oligarchs

what changed in Ukraine for usual people from the street ?

so ... thats why seek justice in wild west style - simple

i do not look for conspiracy theories - i see injustice and understand pissed off people who want to make justice- which state won't provide,

state (ruled by oligarhs) will eventually send them without bulletproof vest and without helmet in sneakers to front to fight for resources which Russia or Russian oligarchs want to steal from Ukrainian oligarchs under hide of protecting Russian minority excuse

i will repeat what i told year ago - probably only far right really take care about country and its functioning , rest of guys in gov. are just businesmen

Edited April 21, 2015 by vilas

[astral4eg 10]

Meanwhile, some Ukrainian media reported about the beginning of the preparations for the 5 wave of mobilization.

[Tonci87 163]

You don´t see such a massive dump of bullshit very often.

They had to send in the questions in advance (so that answers can be prepared) and were not allowed to ask anything critical.

And by the way, nowhere in Germany you will find a picture of Merkel in a official office, they abandoned that practice after Hitler.

[mistyronin 1181]

You don´t see such a massive dump of bullshit very often.

It's a funny video, Zakharchenko wasn't even trying to be creative with his lies (with the exception that he saw the fighter jets that shot down the Boeing).

They had to send in the questions in advance (so that answers can be prepared) and were not allowed to ask anything critical.

That strategy is being used by some democratic govs and companies. Not nice but not rare either.

And by the way, nowhere in Germany you will find a picture of Merkel in a official office, they abandoned that practice after Hitler.

Not in Germany, but in most countries it's typical to have the chief of that state presiding the official rooms.

However in this case it shows that Zakharchenko and the Russians invading Eastern-Ukraine feel themselves Putin's vassals. They don't even try to hide that fact.

[oxmox 73]

You don´t see such a massive dump of bullshit very often.

They had to send in the questions in advance (so that answers can be prepared) and were not allowed to ask anything critical.

And by the way, nowhere in Germany you will find a picture of Merkel in a official office, they abandoned that practice after Hitler.

Its no secret that these seperatists want a very close relationship with Russia, heck thats actually the problem between East- and West Ukraine since more than 100 years. But it is actually crazy that he would like to see the former USSR. Federalization could help in this conflict, but thats not the will of the Ukranian Government and its not really appointed in the Minsk Agreement.

@Tonci87

When it comes to questions in advance, to re-read it by the interviewees and maybe correct statements before a press release, well thats actually a part of the "Interview Autorisierung" (as an example in Germany) and is a regular practice in Journalism, there are more regulations...basically a Journalist has no claim for an Interview, thats the decision of the interviewees. Here is an overview for you in german:

http://www.deutsche-tageszeitungen.de/pressefachartikel/die-autorisierung-von-interviews/

Poland says may support Ukraine's defenses if crisis escalates

WARSAW (Reuters) - Poland's foreign minister Grzegorz Schetyna said on Thursday that Poland, along with other countries, may support Ukraine's defense capacities if the conflict in eastern Ukraine escalates.

"We cannot exclude that in case of renewed escalation of military actions, we will be forced, along with other countries that assess the situation similarly to us, to take a decision on stronger support for the Ukrainian state, including its defense capacities," he said in his policy speech.

Schetyna also said that Poland has applied to become a non-permanent member of United Nations Security Council in 2018-2019.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKBN0NE0ZM20150423

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

Take this article with a grain of salt.......(Korwin-Mikke is the leader of the Congress of the New Right)

‘Maidan snipers trained in Poland’: Polish MP alleges special op in Ukraine to provoke riot (RT, April 22th)

Snipers who are thought to have operated in Kiev’s Independence Square amidst events that led to a coup in February 2014 were trained in Poland and sent to Ukraine to “do a favor†for the US, a Polish Euro-MP claimed in an interview.

On February 20, 2014, riot police trying to restrain anti-government demonstrators on Maidan Nezalezhnosti in Kiev suddenly retreated up the street from whence they had come. As the protesters rushed forward, gunfire suddenly broke out, with many witnesses saying it was a sniper attack. In some two hours, 46 people were killed.

In a new development, Polish former presidential candidate Janusz Korwin-Mikke told Wiadomosci media outlet that the snipers had actually been (polish press report) trained in Poland.

Korwin-Mikke, 72, a European lawmaker and leader of Poland’s conservative KORWiN party, claimed this was a CIA operation. This came as a “Yes†reply to the question whether he believed the CIA was involved.

“Yes - but it was also our operation. The snipers were trained in Poland,†Korwin-Mikke said adding this was done “to provoke riots.â€

Poland trained those “terrorists†to please the US, which invested heavily into Ukrainian coup, the politician alleged.

“Let me say this again: we are doing a favor to Washington,†Korwin-Mikke said.

Challenged about his sources, the politician said he overheard this in the European Parliament as Estonia’s Foreign Affairs Minister Urmas Paet “admitted†to the then-EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton that it was “our people who opened fire on Maidan, not those of Yanukovich or Putin.â€

“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,†Paet said during the call.

“I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,†Ashton then answered.

The Estonian Foreign Minister later confirmed the authenticity of the talk.

Edited April 23, 2015 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

I won't believe anything that comes from RT.

[vilas 477]

Polish former presidential candidate Janusz Korwin-Mikke told

Korwin Mikke is kind of weirdo here, it is someone being counterpart of Zhyrinovsky from Russia, Zhyrinovsky has more than dozen % support, Korwin Mikke party has support smaller than 5% border to get in parliament, he is very controversial guy,

many times he tells things which are very very surprising , i would not believe his words, he simply loves to be controversial to exist in media from time to time

he was not present in Polish parliament for decades, he was voted to EU parliament because he said he wants to destroy EU ,

hard to believe that he has any knowledge about what eventually secret services were or were not doing, where from he can take such ideas , he is "armchair/ coach politician",

there are 2 politicians that want to be controversial, one on far left (gay adoption) others like Korwin Mikke (lack of medical care, lack of labour code, return back to XIX century capitalism)

Schetyna also said that Poland

in fact PO "civic platform" party is puppet of Merkel and agents of Merkel, not agents of USA