Tonci87 163 Posted October 21, 2014 Just out of curiosity, how much holiday per year can you take in the Russian armed forces? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted October 21, 2014 Just out of curiosity, how much holiday per year can you take in the Russian armed forces? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rydygier 1302 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Sikorski once again In an interview Sikorski stressed that he was not a witness of the conversation of Donald Tusk with Vladimir Putin, but that he heard the relation. Then supposedly was spoken the words, "which then can be taken as an historical evocation or grim joke". Sikorski also said that after all the partition of Ukraine actually happened, and the Russian president speaks such language with many leaders and recalled how Putin in an interview with President Barroso said that within two weeks could take Kiev. Sikorski said that in 2008, when the mentioned conversation took place, these words sounded surreal. Asked why neither he nor Prime Minister Tusk did not inform about the conversation, Sikorski said that the allusions thrown by Putin appeared to be significant only after the war with Georgia, after the NATO summit in Bucharest, when Putin spoke about Ukraine as "the artificial creation", and after the annexation of the Crimea. He also said that the problem with the contact of Europe with Russia lies in the fact that Western countries still speak the language of postmodern, in which "the conflict is unthinkable." Russia is responding with the language of "hard diplomacy and force." - Literally recent Sunday, my colleague Sergei Lavrov said in clear text that if Moldova and Romania would be willing to join NATO, the Transnistria can choose their own future. We all know what that means - said Sikorski. The former head of the Foreign Ministry confirmed that the week before talking to a journalist "Politico", Ben Judah. He called him a reliable journalist and admitted that, although the Anglo-Saxon culture is not the custom of authorizing interviews, in case the talks, however, some things "should be clarified."When asked about the storm, which broke out after his speech, Sikorski said that it is a classic proof of "directed inbred Polish politics." - For the words and actions of other countries always whipping boy have to be someone of us. It is more difficult to react in Russia, Washington and Berlin, while in Poland politicians are at hand - considered. President of the Law and Justice party Jaroslaw Kaczynski has already announced that the Law and Justice submits an application for an appeal Radoslaw Sikorski function Speaker of the Sejm. According to the Law and Justice he acted irresponsible, because if such a proposal came, he should first of all to inform the president. Edited October 21, 2014 by Rydygier Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted October 21, 2014 Google maps has confirmed Russians fired on Ukrainian border guards Video from the chemical plant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTSRSzDaPd0 Lucky escape. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rydygier 1302 Posted October 21, 2014 Even more of Sikorski... Radosław Sikorski on Monday next press conference after the disciplinary conversation with Prime Minister Ewa Kopacz explained of how he put it earlier "clumsy" and said that his memory failed when he said that Vladimir Putin offered Donald Tusk partition of Ukraine. He admitted that during his visit in 2008 in Moscow, he mentioned in an interview that there was no bilateral meeting between Putin and Tusk. However, as stipulated in an interview with the American service, he wanted to send a clear signal, how severe is the policy of the President of Russia. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Poland’s speaker backs down from claim Putin proposed dividing Ukraine “There was an over-interpretation in the text and my memory failed me, because after a check it was revealed that there was no such meeting in Moscow between Tusk and Putin,†said Sikorski, who served until last month as foreign minister. http://www.euronews.com/newswires/2750928-polands-speaker-backs-down-from-claim-putin-proposed-dividing-ukraine/ There were several points which did puzzle me after I read the first time about the interview/statement of Sikorski, but of course you wait for a while if more infos are getting released: * Poland is a NATO/EU member and has tight connection with the US and all the other member states * at once it did remind me on the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact * it fits the media which is a lot more anti-russian in general since the MH17 incident * it was 6-7 years ago and there was no word about it during the whole summer In other words Sikorski did talk "nonsens", such an immense accusation creates of course a scandal even more if the accusation is false. He talks about the "authorisation" of the interview and didnt know about it, but actually before he became a politician he was working as an international Journalist, he was aswell correspondent for the Sunday Times. The excessive "anti-russian and one-sided" view in the media and from certain politicians did reach with this case so far the peak. There are of course justified critics about Putin and the situation about the Ukraine/Crimea, but we should keep the feets on the grounds. In this forum and hopefully in the international world politics and media, I rather doubt about the latter. Edited October 21, 2014 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted October 21, 2014 Supposed russian tanks with Ukrainian stripe markings. ---------- Post added at 21:19 ---------- Previous post was at 20:49 ---------- RT is now doing a propaganda documentary on how the "nazis" shot down MH17 with the SU-25. As evidence they use retarded conspiracy nuts who have no idea what they are talking about, as always. Heres an Echo Moscow article on why the russian theory is bullshit 1. They used a picture of a EF-111 Raven for the SU 25 2. They had shown two Boing "778s" on their plan, which do not exist. 3. The max height of the SU 25 is 7km unloaded and if the use this enertia thingy they are uncontrolable. It couldn't have flown up to 11km, caught up to the Boing and fired at it with its autocannon at a 5km distance. 4. The range of the SU25 autocannon is 700m, not 5km. 5. The flight recoreds have shown it was a ground-air missile. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brisse 78 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) 3. The max height of the SU 25 is 7km unloaded and if the use this enertia thingy they are uncontrolable. It couldn't have flown up to 11km, caught up to the Boing and fired at it with its autocannon at a 5km distance. In Sovjet-Russia, Su-25 is armed hypersonic spaceplane. On a more serious note. Tried to simulate the scenario myself. Conclusion: Impossible. The civillian plane goes both faster and higher. Edited October 21, 2014 by Brisse Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carlostex 38 Posted October 22, 2014 RT does enough to appeal to the ignorant masses i guess... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted October 22, 2014 Wow as if I needed another reason to think of RT as the absolute scum of journalism.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rydygier 1302 Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) Now, if someone thought, it's all about Sikorki's statement mess... Latest version from Sikorski, stated under pressure/after conversation with Polish Prime Minister is, so his memory failed, and there wasn't Putin-Tusk meeting in Moscow 2008, where Putin could make such "offer" of partition of Ukraine. But apparently it wasn't hard to prove, this statement isn't true: Evidences of the Tusk presence in Moscow and talk with Putin is obviously a lot. And it's funny that you have to start to publish them. Here is a picture from the official website of the Kremlin of 8 March 2008 .: http://wpolityce.pl/polityka/219018-sikorski-probuje-mydlic-oczy-opinii-publicznej-bezczelnie-sugeruje-nawet-ze-w-ogole-nie-bylo-spotkania-tusk-putin-w-lutym-2008-roku Edited October 22, 2014 by Rydygier Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) 3. The max height of certain SU 25 types is 7km unloaded and if the use this enertia thingy they are uncontrolable. It couldn't have flown up to 11km, caught up to the Boing and fired at it with its autocannon at a 5km distance. Exactly, the allegedly max height of the SU-25 can be way lower than the ~32.000 feet of the civilian airplane. The plane was an SU-25, but what type ? I remember even reading that some of the media claims there were no military planes at all. edit: Wikipedia says the Ukraine owns the following SU-25 type planes: Su-25 Su-25UB Su-25K Su-25UTG Su-25M1 Su-25UBM1 Four Su-25M1 and one Su-25UBM1 were upgraded in 2010-2011 Now, if someone thought, it's all about Sikorki's statement mess... The whole incident seems to be a mess....yes, no, maybe...what the hell. Edited October 22, 2014 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) "NSDC published pictures of rocket remains with cluster mun., produced in RF in 2013 - never supplied to UA since 1991 " Exactly, the allegedly max height of the SU-25 can be way lower than the ~32.000 feet of the civilian airplane. The plane was an SU-25, but what type ? I remember even reading that some of the media claims there were no military planes at all. Russian media just says "SU-25" and they just said it was a SU-25 in their presentation. But it doesn't really matter, because no SU-25 can fly up to 11km, catch up with the plane and destroy it with an autocannon at 5km with rounds that bunch up in front of the cockpit somehow while being invisible and exploding all at once destroy the whole plane in one big explosion. Edited October 22, 2014 by beastcat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted October 22, 2014 No SU 25 variant can rech that altitude even when empty. An SU-25 with fuel, ammo for the gun (a huge double barreled 30mm with 250 rounds) can´t even dream of reaching the altitude of the shot down plane. Also the damage on the aircraft parts according to the dutch investigation points to a large Surface to Air missile that detonated just in front and above the aircraft. Very characteristic for a Surface to Air missile that is fired at an incoming plane. If it was a Infrared guided missile fired by an SU 25 it would have targeted one of the wings where the engines produce the most heat If it was a Radar guided missile fired by a trailing aircraft the most damage would have been on the belly of the plane. The inflicted damage is too serious to originate from an Air to Air missile. No matter how you look at it, Russias claims that an SU25 shot down that plane are as believable as a fairy tale. Accoding to the damage the only explanation that makes sense is that it was hit by a Surface to Air missile that came at it from the front right. And then you also have the tweets by the separatists claiming that they just nailed another military aircraft and they deleted them as soon as they realized what they hit there.... beastcat, it seems as if both sides are using cluster ammunition wich is kind of ok from their point of view because both didn´t sign the agreement to ban them... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) (Bloomberg) Mud and Loathing on Russia-Ukraine Border Tamara Nekrasova never really hated Ukrainians, not even when a shell fired from Ukrainian territory struck her house just a short walk from the Russia-Ukraine border, sending her to the hospital and killing a neighbor. It wasn’t until later, after months of relentless anti-Ukraine reports on Russian television, that anger and antipathy began to consume the 55-year-old former mineworker. “I feel it now,†Nekrasova said as she packed boxes to move out of her wood-frame hut, where holes from the shrapnel still scar the walls. “I just feel it from the things they’re showing on TV.†(Bellingcat) Russian TV Inadvertently Demonstrates MH17 Wasn’t Shot Down by Aircraft Cannon Fire Anyone who has been following the debate over the downing of MH17 will know one point of contention is which weapon was used to down MH17. On one side you have people who say it was mostly likely a missile launched by a Buk missile launcher, and on the other people claiming it was cannon fire from a jet. Generally the former claim is used to link the separatists to the downing of MH17, while the latter is used to claim the Ukrainian government was responsible. (Ukrinform) OSCE finds no cluster munitions in Donbas conflict zone "We have about 90 observers in eastern Ukraine. If we saw something like that, we would have recorded it, but that has not currently been recorded. All we have to say about ammunition or shelling appears in our daily reports. By this time there was nothing in our reports about it," Bociurkiw said. Edited October 22, 2014 by surpher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted October 22, 2014 Thanks to the Russian channel’s work we now have a rare chance to compare the damage from cannon fire on aircraft to the damage done to MH17. Based on the Russian channel’s own tests it seems clear that the entry holes visible in the above examples do not match what’s shown in the Russian channel’s own tests. It seems that rather than prove MH17 was shot down by cannon fire as they claim, they’ve inadvertently provided evidence that it wasn’t. Silly Russian TV..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) No SU 25 variant can rech that altitude even when empty. An SU-25 with fuel, ammo for the gun (a huge double barreled 30mm with 250 rounds) can´t even dream of reaching the altitude of the shot down plane. Also the damage on the aircraft parts according to the dutch investigation points to a large Surface to Air missile that detonated just in front and above the aircraft. Very characteristic for a Surface to Air missile that is fired at an incoming plane. If it was a Infrared guided missile fired by an SU 25 it would have targeted one of the wings where the engines produce the most heat If it was a Radar guided missile fired by a trailing aircraft the most damage would have been on the belly of the plane. The inflicted damage is too serious to originate from an Air to Air missile. No matter how you look at it, Russias claims that an SU25 shot down that plane are as believable as a fairy tale. Accoding to the damage the only explanation that makes sense is that it was hit by a Surface to Air missile that came at it from the front right. And then you also have the tweets by the separatists claiming that they just nailed another military aircraft and they deleted them as soon as they realized what they hit there.... beastcat, it seems as if both sides are using cluster ammunition wich is kind of ok from their point of view because both didn´t sign the agreement to ban them... Russian media just says "SU-25" and they just said it was a SU-25 in their presentation.But it doesn't really matter, because no SU-25 can fly up to 11km, catch up with the plane and destroy it with an autocannon at 5km with rounds that bunch up in front of the cockpit somehow while being invisible and exploding all at once destroy the whole plane in one big explosion. When I go to the official Sukhoi webpage there are infos about some Su-25 types which can reach a ceiling of 14.200 meters, without external ordinance or stores. It doesnt matter probably in the case of the mh17, but I wonder why you guys say no Su-25 can fly up to such altitude. The MH17 airplane was flying at ~10.000 meter. Russian officials claimed the military plane was 3-5km away from the MH17. Not going deeper into this, this is for experts like ProfTournesol is saying aswell. Edited October 22, 2014 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted October 22, 2014 There's no need to brainstorm about the SU25, the experts said the plane wasn't shot down by an airplane. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aleksadragutin 9 Posted October 22, 2014 There's no need to brainstorm about the SU25, the experts said the plane wasn't shot down by an airplane. Well the experts integrity is in question here. Not saying that MH17 was or was not shot down by SU-25, just pointing to the fact that western propaganda has been known to spawn experts with some false info. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted October 22, 2014 Well the experts integrity is in question here. Not saying that MH17 was or was not shot down by SU-25, just pointing to the fact that western propaganda has been known to spawn experts with some false info. Oh look, that wonderful conspiracy theory again :rolleyes: Every serious experts that looked at the plane said that those schrapnels came from AA weapons. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted October 22, 2014 (USOSCE) Russia Continues to Obstruct Expansion of Border Checkpoint Observation Mission Despite repeated requests from OSCE member and partner States, the Russian Federation continued to block the expansion of the Border Checkpoint Observation Mission beyond the two border checkpoints where it is currently deployed. These checkpoints together make up just 1 km of the hundreds of kilometers of the international border between Ukraine and Russia. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted October 22, 2014 Well the experts integrity is in question here. Not saying that MH17 was or was not shot down by SU-25, just pointing to the fact that western propaganda has been known to spawn experts with some false info. Even Russian experts point out to a BUK missile: ( ITAR-TASS ) Russian expert: western secret services know truth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted October 22, 2014 At this point Russia is spreading many half truths and halfway plausible stories in an attempt to masquerade and distort the real truth. They went from "The separatists downed a military aircraft" to "A Ukrainian jet downed the plane" (wich they couldn´t keep up because a high flying jet would have appeared on many radars) to "A SU-25 shot it up with cannons" (wich again they couldn´t keep up because it is absolutely impossible) to "A SU-25 shot it with a missile and finished it off with cannons" (completely ignoring that the damage on the aircraft doesn´t correspond to an Air to Air missile and that the aircraft had already broke appart when it reached an altitude where an SU-25 would have been able to shoot 30mm rounds into it if the debris fell directly in front of him) and now they are at (It was a Buk, but an Ukrainian one). You know what a person that contradicts itself all the time in court is? Guilty! The Russian government must think that the whole world is pretty stupid if they expect anybody to buy this Horseshit. Sadly many Russians do believe that, because they get it hammered into their head all the time by propaganda such as RT. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted October 22, 2014 Meanwhile at the airport Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
