Ukraine General

[vilas 473]

People don't need freedom, they need order and security, and that's what Putin is providing.

Russian mentality people yes, rest people prefer freedom more even if there is no more order, this is what divide Poles, Czechs and other Slavic nations from Russians,

we prefer freedom more than order , too much order = oppression & dictatorship

there must be balance between order and personal freedom - but of course for Russians "guy who keeps them by the mouth" is "beloved leader" , for many other nations, such attitude is unacceptable,

Edited August 8, 2014 by vilas

[aleksadragutin 9]

Russian mentality people yes, rest people prefer freedom more even if there is no more order, this is what divide Poles, Czechs and other Slavic nations from Russians,

we prefer freedom more than order , too much order = oppression & dictatorship

there must be balance between order and personal freedom - but of course for Russians "guy who keeps them by the mouth" is "beloved leader" , for many other nations, such attitude is unacceptable,

Other Slavs are not free, they act out the will of western powers.

I lived in a truly lawless and "free" country in the 90's, and people would rather go back to communist "oppression" than go through that again. If you think you would like that better, then you know nothing.

West has democracy but it didn't stop them from sprincling us with depleted uranium and cluster mine bombs.

Edited August 8, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[negah 26]

They also did in Finland, UK, and others. We posted the links here. It's a Russian strategy to know about the countries defenses. But they have been doing that for a lot of years.

Seems everyone is doing this:

http://news.sky.com/story/1312623/us-plane-flies-into-sweden-to-avoid-russians

However the increase in russian flights may be a "show of force" act.

West has democracy but it didn't stop them from sprincling us with depleted uranium and cluster mine bombs.

Democracy is just another tool of keeping people in control, just like any religion, ideology, common enemy or "rally 'round the flag" effect.

We might have more freedoms as long as it fits our rulers, and we might sometimes cause something by demonstrations or whatever.

But as soon as a lot of money or interests of some big boss are at stake, the will of the common folk is quickly forgotten.

Edited August 8, 2014 by negah

[ProfTournesol 956]

People don't need freedom, they need order and security, and that's what Putin is providing. I wish my country had a leader as potent as him, to taim the criminal lords and restore order. So what if you can't publicly denounce him, and why would you even want to, if your standard of living is better than what it used to be.

I need freedom and democracy, not Putin's dictatorship, so do Ukrainians. What you're looking after is middelageous slavic nationalism pride, which will lead only to one thing : war.

---------- Post added at 10:49 ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 ----------

Other Slavs are not free, they act out the will of western powers.

I lived in a truly lawless and "free" country in the 90's

Lawless and free are opposite words, democracy is the enforcement of law, contrary to Putin's world where nobody gives a shit of law, Putin first.

[fabrizio_t 58]

I need freedom and democracy, not Putin's dictatorship, so do Ukrainians. What you're looking after is middelageous slavic nationalism pride, which will lead only to one thing : war.

---------- Post added at 10:49 ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 ----------

Lawless and free are opposite words, democracy is the enforcement of law, contrary to Putin's world where nobody gives a shit of law, Putin first.

Well, to be fair i don't think nationalism is really a "middelageous slavic pride".

As you know nationalism is on the rise in many countries, including yours and mine.

[vilas 473]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_war_crimes_in_the_Yugoslav_Wars#War_crimes

if you would accept other people freedom - noone would bomb you

freedom is also when you accept others freedom - this part is hardly understood by Islamists (Sharia) and by Russians (rusification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification , imperialism)

in Putin "order" rich businessmen have police blue strobe lights, to cross red light , rich guy in Russia can drive on the same rule as Police car during alarm , if you call "order" situation in which rich guy is above law and above road traffic codex, nice ...

As you know nationalism is on the rise in many countries, including yours and mine.

nationalism is not bad as imperialism,

nationalism works inside YOUR land

and it is about protecting YOUR land

nationalism is because immigrants commit crimes and bring crime and violence (religious, criminal, abuse social care) to your country living from your taxes,

imperialism is worse - it tries to attack OTHER lands - the same as Jihad - someone from abroad want to tell you how you must live in your home

patriotism is good feature, not bad, patriots care about their land, their economy - it is virtue

but imperialism and trying to invade other countries IS BAD

because someone sticks nose and want to conquer OTHERS

nationalism is defence

imperialism is attack

makes difference

Edited August 8, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, to be fair i don't think nationalism is really a "middelageous slavic pride".

As you know nationalism is on the rise in many countries, including yours and mine.

Nationalism as a whole is very dangerous for European peace, but our countries aren't looking for a greater lebensraum, contrary to some others, looking for a new kind of pan-slavism.

[aleksadragutin 9]

I need freedom and democracy, not Putin's dictatorship, so do Ukrainians. What you're looking after is middelageous slavic nationalism pride, which will lead only to one thing : war.

---------- Post added at 10:49 ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 ----------

Lawless and free are opposite words, democracy is the enforcement of law, contrary to Putin's world where nobody gives a shit of law, Putin first.

Democracy doesn't work. Of 12 years we had democracy nothing good happened. The only thing democracy brought is division amongst ourselves, weakening of the government due to political infighting, and freedom for tycoons to freely steal from the state.

It is not nationalism, it is desperation. The only thing that had ever worked to unite and strengthen the country was dictatorship, and not just any. People need an iron fist to rule. If the leader is weak lawlessness soon comes. That is from experience.

If you think you know better, then stop thinking at all, because you don't.

[mistyronin 1181]

Well, to be fair i don't think nationalism is really a "middelageous slavic pride".

As you know nationalism is on the rise in many countries, including yours and mine.

That is true. Also in Finland, an other countries. Here the right-wing nationalist party got 19% of the votes last elections.

Democracy doesn't work. Of 12 years we had democracy nothing good happened.

That is not true. Democracy works, and really well ( in fact is the best system in the actual times ), the problem is when democracy is only applied partially, and also takes time to reach a full development ( dozens of years ).

In fact dictatorship = corruption.

Edited August 8, 2014 by MistyRonin

[ProfTournesol 956]

freedom for tycoons to freely steal from the state.

How do you think Putin and his clique behave in Russia ? Who is the biggest robber of Russian's wealth ?

BTW, i'm old enough to have travelled in Russia in the 80's (with my father), where i saw how wonderful communism was, how empty were the shops for common people while the shops for aparatshicks were full of Western goods, etc.

Edited August 8, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[fabrizio_t 58]

Nationalism as a whole is very dangerous for European peace, but our countries aren't looking for a greater lebensraum, contrary to some others, looking for a new kind of pan-slavism.

If i can express a very personal and debatable opinion, i think our lebensraum (US/UE) is measured in $ or €, while pan-slavic lebensraum is measured by territory.

This is the only really difference. Both approaches are aggressive and dangerous.

[mistyronin 1181]

Look, the countries that are the most corrupt are precisely the ones with authoritary regimes or dictatorships ( including Russia ). And the less corrupted are the democratic ones...

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results

[aleksadragutin 9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian...ars#War_crimes

if you would accept other people freedom - noone would bomb you

freedom is also when you accept others freedom - this part is hardly understood by Islamists (Sharia) and by Russians (rusification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification , imperialism)

in Putin "order" rich businessmen have police blue strobe lights, to cross red light , rich guy in Russia can drive on the same rule as Police car during alarm , if you call "order" situation in which rich guy is above law and above road traffic codex, nice ...

As you know nationalism is on the rise in many countries, including yours and mine.

nationalism is not bad as imperialism,

nationalism works inside YOUR land

and it is about protecting YOUR land

nationalism is because immigrants commit crimes and bring crime and violence (religious, criminal, abuse social care) to your country living from your taxes,

imperialism is worse - it tries to attack OTHER lands - the same as Jihad - someone from abroad want to tell you how you must live in your home

patriotism is good feature, not bad, patriots care about their land, their economy - it is virtue

but imperialism and trying to invade other countries IS BAD

because someone sticks nose and want to conquer OTHERS

nationalism is defence

imperialism is attack

makes difference.

Please don't talk to me about my own country. And don't show to me some Wikipedia articles that serve as propaganda.

Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to know the truth because you lived through it an have some random smartass teaching you about it from some Wikipedia (The FREE Encyclopedia) article.

We weren't bombed because of freedom, we were bombed because the US wanted to brake Russian influence on the Balkan, and to establish a military base in our own land, but we wouldn't let them do so peacefully.

---------- Post added at 09:16 ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 ----------

The US is not corrupt? What about lobbying, what about wars for money, what about hypocrisy? It is how people measure corruption that is wrong with the western world.

Edited August 8, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[mistyronin 1181]

Please don't talk to me about my own country.

I don't know to who you refer, but no one has talked about your country or quoted a Wikipedia article.

About the US wanting to establish bases in Serbia, that wouldn't make any sense. As there are NATO countries that surround the Balkans ( Greece, Italy, Czech Rep., Bulgaria, etc. ).

Check the map.

http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2011/Partnerships/Photostory/files/1544_pg.jpg (113 kB)

If the NATO bombed Serbia was to end any conflicts in the Balkans and to stabilize the zone, as no one in Europe wanted chaos and war in their borders ( similar to what is happening in Ukraine ).

The US is not corrupt? What about lobbying, what about wars for money, what about hypocrisy? It is how people measure corruptness that is wrong with the western world.

All countries have their % of corruption even countries like the nordics that are the less corrupt in the world. The difference is the amount and what happen to those who are corrupt, and as you could see in that link I showed you the most corrupt are the authoritarian.

Edited August 8, 2014 by MistyRonin

[aleksadragutin 9]

I don't know to who you refer, but no one has talked about your country or quoted a Wikipedia article.

About the US wanting to establish bases in Serbia, that wouldn't make any sense. As there are NATO countries that surround the Balkans ( Greece, Italy, Austria, Bulgaria, etc. ).

Check the map.

http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2011/Partnerships/Photostory/files/1544_pg.jpg (113 kB)

If the NATO bombed Serbia was to end any conflicts in the Balkans and to stabilize the zone, as no one in Europe wanted chaos and war in their borders ( similar to what is happening in Ukraine ).

I was talking to Vilas. And not sure if you know about camp Bondsteel in Kosovo. It is the reason they declared it a separate country.

Edited August 8, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[mistyronin 1181]

I was talking to Vilas. And not sure if you know about camp Bondsteel in Kosovo. It is the reason they declared it a separate country.

In fact camp Bondsteel is under populated, they only have 1500 US National Guards ( not the US Army ), and it was mainly a guarantee so Serbia wouldn't invade Kosovo.

But it has no strategic value ( no airport, no helicopter pads, no hangars, no port, nor rail facilities, neither proper storage ) of weapons and costs hundreds of millions to the american taxpayers so probably in the close future is gonna be closed.

Just check real US bases like Rota in Spain or Aviano in Italy.

Edited August 8, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

if immigrants were not committing serious number of crimes (in some areas, they are told to commit majority of crimes) , if immigrants were nor abusing social care system (i have to BUY flat and take credit in bank, loan for 30 years, but if someone is immigrant, state gives him flat for FREE although he doesn't pay taxes, this is NOT RIGHT), if imigrants were not bringing their culture war (fighting with our culture) , if they were not serious labour-price dumping ,

you would have no nationalism,

i bet in next election they will get 40% , because you are blind and see no problems , i read about for example rape rates, that in some western european cities , 90% of rapes are comited by small group of immigrants, in other regions 70% of thefts and robberies were commited by small group of imigrants etc. etc. etc.

when someone was robbed by imigrants, and those imigrants get free flat from the state and get 50% of his salary from social care - you expect him to vote for lefties ? hahaha :D

few guys from Israel wrote about dangers in Eu, you don't want to listen to those dangers,

there would be no nationalism , if immigrants had to work like natives, pay taxes like natives, had similar crime rate like natives, behave and assimilate like natives, do not wanted to ban culture of natives (do you remember issue with Christmass tree in Denmark ?)

police in western countries are forbidden to make notes about ethnic roots of criminals, but i know from few policemen "on private chat" that in some western cities in some crimes 80-90% of cases are commited by non-natives,

the simple question for you MR:

- why the hell i have to BUY flat , take credit and loan in bank for 30 years, paying to bank 130%, while some guys who came to my country, get flat FOR FREE from the state, not pay for this flat at all ? is it just and right ?

- why when i was in Italy (and we were almost robbed by group of Gypsies, and almost pickpocketed by Black Africans ) we were told not to defend cause if we fight back (like i fight back when on Polish street Polish robber attacks me) because in case if we fight back, we are accused of racism ? why i cannot hit Black robber, but i can hit White robber ? why ?

if you tell this is okay, than maybe you gonna give me 100 000 euro, so i can buy 35 sqare meters flat in my city, cause in Warsaw 1 meter cost 2500 euro and people earn 500 euro, i do not see ANY reason, that some guys from Chechenya get such flats FREE, i do not see reason why some Gypsies (who do not work and commit crimes) get such flat free from the state,

next election in my country , right wing gonna have 60%, because we will never accept , what people in Paris, Oslo, Kirkendall, Marsilie accept, we will never agree on people throwing stones at us shouting "Allah Akbar", we will never agree on the fact that we cannot hit back robber, because he is nonWhite, if people are equal, i can hit robber no matter if he is Black, White, Yellow, Red, Green, Blue, if he tries to rob me, i should have right to self defence, people should be treated equal, if Christians want to set Chrismass tree on Chrisian land, no minority can tell them to ban it , like it happened on Kirkedal in Denmark, nationalism borns as self defense against incoming agression and competition ?

if for someone Christmass tree is "offensive" or they attack people eating ham sandwich cause ham is "offensive" - there will be more and more nationalism till in EU we gonna have civil war because of "political correctness"

http://www.therightperspective.org/2012/11/10/brussels-bans-offensive-christmas-tree-for-muslims/

if Christmas tree is offensive MR, why local Chrisitans cannot demand to destroy Mosque if they found it offensive too ? where is EQUALITY ? where is TOLERANCE to our Chrstmass tree ?

look at such examples, there is more and more of it, tollerant must be BOTH sides, not just we,

no-go zone, which police of Germany or police of France avoids, a lot of documents on Youtube you can find, about no-go zones created by imigrants who call "sharia" zones in some French or German cities

you will have 60% for right wing in 2020, or maybe more if "tollerance" will be only on one side

Sharia Patrol in London attacking couples cause girl kissed boy ?

---------------------

MR this transparency report you shown is biased, my country is very corrupted, it should be marked RED as Russia or Ukraine, i cannot imagine how someone dared to compare Poland to USA in corruption index, Poland is among most corrupted European countries,

----

and right wing gona win in EU, because we have wrong law , criminals should be treated like in Muslim states (one thing they are better than our culutre, is attitude to criminals) , not that criminals rob, kill , rape people and get funny short sentences in hotel-rooms with tv, internet and gym, almost like holiday but not PUNISHMENT

Edited August 8, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

Other Slavs are not free, they act out the will of western powers.

I lived in a truly lawless and "free" country in the 90's, and people would rather go back to communist "oppression" than go through that again. If you think you would like that better, then you know nothing.

West has democracy but it didn't stop them from sprincling us with depleted uranium and cluster mine bombs.

The only people that want to go back to communist oppression are the former ruling states. Serbia and Russia. Those were good times when Serbians and Russians were the most powerfull people in every Yugoslavian/Soviet country, when you could do what you wanted, the feeling of might and superiority. I can understand that somebody would like those times back. However every other slav country strongly disagrees.

The current system may not be perfect, our politicians generally suck, but we still prefer it to the oppression of old.

Every ex Soviet country hates Russians as much as every ex Yugoslavian country hates the Serbs.

Also the US bombed you because of the war crimes you commited in Croatia, Bosnia and in Kosovo. And don't you dare to deny them!

Nato also saved your ass when they pressured Croatia to halt it's offensive on the outskirts of Banja Luka, otherwise we would have been coming for Milosevic ourselves.

[mistyronin 1181]

Also the US bombed you because of the war crimes you commited in Croatia, Bosnia and in Kosovo. And don't you dare to deny them!

Well, it was not only the US but NATO ( and yeah I know some people are unable to distinguish them, but it's quite different ).

And although the war crimes "helped", the main reason the NATO bombed Serbia was to stop the war.

As I said the European countries were not willing to have a war in their borders with all the problems that this caused ( and still causes, did you know that in Spain the worst robberies and murders are committed by ex yugoslavian soldiers ).

[aleksadragutin 9]

The only people that want to go back to communist oppression are the former ruling states. Serbia and Russia. Those were good times when Serbians and Russians were the most powerfull people in every Yugoslavian/Soviet country, when you could do what you wanted, the feeling of might and superiority. I can understand that somebody would like those times back. However every other slav country strongly disagrees.

The current system may not be perfect, our politicians generally suck, but we still prefer it to the oppression of old.

Every ex Soviet country hates Russians as much as every ex Yugoslavian country hates the Serbs.

Also the US bombed you because of the war crimes you commited in Croatia, Bosnia and in Kosovo. And don't you dare to deny them!

Nato also saved your ass when they pressured Croatia to halt it's offensive on the outskirts of Banja Luka, otherwise we would have been coming for Milosevic ourselves.

Oh don't kid yourselfs. First-the ruler of Yugoslavia was Croatian, second-no crimes were commited with a higher directive (unlike operation Oluja), and third-you started the war with a rebellion.

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 ----------

In fact camp Bondsteel is under populated, they only have 1500 US National Guards ( not the US Army ), and it was mainly a guarantee so Serbia wouldn't invade Kosovo.

But it has no strategic value ( no airport, no helicopter pads, no hangars, no port, nor rail facilities, neither proper storage ) of weapons and costs hundreds of millions to the american taxpayers so probably in the close future is gonna be closed.

Just check real US bases like Rota in Spain or Aviano in Italy.

What about the Missile Shield.

[mistyronin 1181]

What about the Missile Shield.

I'm a bit lost in this one, what missile shield are you referring?

If you mean the NATO one to defend Europe of any Russian missile attack, it is installed in Poland, Romania, Spain and Portugal. In Turkey there is also an early-radar.

[vilas 473]

not IS , but SUPPOSED, cause it WAS stopped by Russian imperialism, just like liquidation of Ukraine atomic potential (with international fake guarantee, like in 1939 Poland had similar fake guarantee) - both Ukrainias and Poles are angry, that west allowed and forced, agreed to Russian imperialistic demands from past decade , Ukraine was told "i you resign from a-bomb, we all gonna protect you", let's how those who guaranted act when Ukraine is in danger?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11000431/Britain-will-not-start-World-War-Three-over-Ukraine-David-Cameron-says.html

was UK guarantee Ukraine safety when they convincing UA to resign from a-bomb ?

Edited August 8, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Yeah, in that matter I agree 100% with you Vilas. UK & France didn't do much in WW2 when both Germany and Russia invaded Poland.

And now the NATO and Europe are not doing much to support Ukraine as they promised.

I hope that the situation doesn't turn like another 1939. When BTW Russia tried to invade Finland and still keeps the territories they stole at that time.

[beastcat 14]

http://youtu.be/xKIonzjbNwE

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yeah, in that matter I agree 100% with you Vilas. UK & France didn't do much in WW2 when both Germany and Russia invaded Poland. .

That's a little harsh. We declared war to Germany when Germany invaded Poland, but fail to attack them while they were occupied in Poland, because of a lame defensive strategy. I'd say we didn't do anything when Germany invaded Czeckoslovakia.