Ukraine General

[sudayev 27]

banned a few US military officials from entry to russia, which is funny, because noone wants to go there anyway.

Yep it's funny because they were probably the last people eligible for sanctioning. Who else they got left? Nobody and they can't do a damn about it pheheh

Edited July 20, 2014 by Sudayev

[astral4eg 10]

For christs sake, what is it with you russians? Astral4eg, all of the points and conspiracies you just said have been debunked and explained in this thread earlier, go back a few pages and stop talking crap.

And if you are to lazy too do that, take a read:

http://www.stopfake.org/tragediya-malazijskogo-avialajnera-analiz-gipotez/

http://www.stopfake.org/lozh-ukraina-sbila-grazhdanskij-boing-malaysia-airlines/

http://www.stopfake.org/lozh-ispanskij-dispetcher-rabotayushhij-v-kieve-soobshhil-o-prichastnosti-ukrainskih-samoletov-k-padeniyu-boinga/

Stopfake it's Ukraine site if u dont know, i wrote this about ~100 pages ago.

Edited July 20, 2014 by astral4eg

[beastcat 14]

Stopfake it's Ukraine site if u dont know, i wrote this about about ~100 pages ago.

So what? That doesn't change anything about its validity.

---------- Post added at 11:54 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------

The terrorists are trying to capture and hide the black boxes.

A ukrainian tv show (In russian) about the plane:

Edited July 20, 2014 by beastcat

[spooky lynx 73]

So what? That doesn't change anything about its validity.

The fact that it is sponsored by US Department of State changes.

[beastcat 14]

The fact that it is sponsored by US Department of State changes.

That still doesn't change anything. Facts are facts, no matter if you like it or not. It can be sponsored by the chupakabra space jews and it still won't change anything.

Edit: Also by your logic we can dismiss everything you post, because your sources are from russia, but unlike you, we actually look at your russian conspiracy theories, analyse and expose them, explaining why they are total bullshit.

Edited July 20, 2014 by beastcat

[spooky lynx 73]

At least my sources weren't shaking some mysterious tube with white powder at the council claiming it was probe of Saddam's WMD.

[mistyronin 1181]

At least my sources weren't shaking some mysterious tube with white powder at the council claiming it was probe of Saddam's WMD.

It all depends on how is formulated the point, and with what original sources. The Stopfake website ( no matter who pays or wrote it ), usually have a really well structurated and fundamented arguments.

For instance, you have RIA Novosti and RT, both written by Russians and funded by the Kremlin, the first one it's a pretty good media with good sources and the second basically only delivers the worst BS propaganda from the worst invented / crazy sources ( if its need they change the words from the quoted sources ).

[beastcat 14]

At least my sources weren't shaking some mysterious tube with white powder at the council claiming it was probe of Saddam's WMD.

Again, if you want to question the credibility of stopfake, point us to the places where it is wrong. Who sponsors it or what they write about doesn't matter, because the facts are facts and they have a good history where they always turn out to be right (Or at least I haven't seen otherwise). We have disprooven your "sources" and conspiracy theories so many times now. Why can't you do it if we can do it so easily with your super trustworthy and reliable sources?

Sorry to all russians here (Im "ethnic russian" myself, so I'm allowed to do that), this joke is a little bit macabre, but:

Russian Shashlik:

http://youtu.be/t3mWhTYKTOg

"Photos out of east Ukraine show men, who carry a blackbox out of a field. Concerns arise, that the separatists may destroy evidence from the MH-17 disaster" - welt.de

According to welt.de, Sergej Kawtaradse said, that the bodies of the victims are stored in refrigerator freight wagons at the local train station.

According to the Ukrainian government, two of the crewman of the Buk have been captured, trying to cross the border.

Edited July 20, 2014 by beastcat

[spooky lynx 73]

It all depends on how is formulated the point, and with what original sources. The Stopfake website ( no matter who pays or wrote it ), usually have a really well structurated and fundamented arguments.

For me ties with US DoS are equal with side of current Kiev regime (as we all have seen open support those days maidan opposition later transformed into current regime by US officials). And Kiev regime became famous for opressing the journalists (that case with Rada deputy forcing the head of media outlet to resign), killing them (recent case with NTV group) and throwing the craziest and stupidest BS like Polish MANPADS in hands of Russian journalists, finding 'caches of terrorist weapons' in some forest far away from any potent target with a couple of MANPADS, labeling some old Soviet weapons as new Russian ones, saying about RPG-18 (which is prodiced since 70's and discontinued in 80's) as newest Russian RPG which does not present in Ukrainian army, talking about mysterious super-duper AK-100 rifles, naming own Ukraine-produced T-64 tanks as Russian T-72s etc. I can post huge list of every kind of BS told by Kiev propagandists and officials but, sorry, you may find it yourselves (even at the links I posted in this thread earlier).

And, as I've said multiple times, who pays always matters.

BTW Kiev's propagandists forgot to remove one detail from the video showing suspected Buk towed to Russia. Advertising billboard shown there is... located at another town, Krasnoarmeysk, controlled by Kiev's forces since 11 May:)

Edited July 20, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[beastcat 14]

For me ties with US DoS are equal with side of current Kiev regime (as we all have seen open support those days maidan opposition later transformed into current regime by US officials). And Kiev regime became famous for opressing the journalists (that case with Rada deputy forcing the head of media outlet to resign), killing them (recent case with NTV group) and throwing the craziest and stupidest BS like Polish MANPADS in hands of Russian journalists, finding 'caches of terrorist weapons' in some forest far away from any potent target with a couple of MANPADS, labeling some old Soviet weapons as new Russian ones, saying about RPG-18 (which is prodiced since 70's and discontinued in 80's) as newest Russian RPG which does not present in Ukrainian army, talking about mysterious super-duper AK-100 rifles, naming own Ukraine-produced T-64 tanks as Russian T-72s etc. I can post huge list of every kind of BS told by Kiev propagandists and officials but, sorry, you may find it yourselves (even at the links I posted in this thread earlier).

And, as I've said multiple times, who pays always matters.

Oh, please, don't come here with your accusations of "opressing the journalists". May I remind you that russia is on place 148 of 180 on the index of press freedom? That means it is as close to north korea as to Venezuela.

And I won't even start with the incredible amount of retarded lies the russian propaganda machine produced...

Edited July 20, 2014 by beastcat

[mr_centipede 31]

Why are the rebels still in control of the crash site? Why the Malaysian investigation team hasn't been allowed to examine the crash site? Malaysia is as neutral as anyone can get in this conflict... of course, I'm sure the US will try to influence Malaysian government to side with the west and condemn Russia/putin. For me, Russia could do the same, let the Malaysian team access to the site... why waste time? They've been in Ukraine since Saturday.

[beastcat 14]

Why are the rebels still in control of the crash site? Why the Malaysian investigation team hasn't been allowed to examine the crash site? Malaysia is as neutral as anyone can get in this conflict... of course, I'm sure the US will try to influence Malaysian government to side with the west and condemn Russia/putin. For me, Russia could do the same, let the Malaysian team access to the site... why waste time? They've been in Ukraine since Saturday.

Because the separatists are stealing everything of value and are trying to remove everything that can act as evidence against them. Additionally they need time to move all their Buks and evidence back to russia (Of which we have videos in this thread already).

[maturin 12]

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/19/happened-malaysian-airliner-paul-craig-roberts/?fb_action_ids=689281684454960&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_ref=.U8u37WURR-E.like

If anyone is familiar with Paul Craig Roberts, he is a rather serious scholar and an excellent debater. His articles are very hard for Ukraine supporters to rebut.

But with this last posting on the airliner, one could be forgiven for wondering if he is being paid by the Kremlin.

He's not, of course. What we see here is a rational person who has let their emotions run completely away with their higher mental faculties. The poverty of reasoning--if not willful abstruseness--in this post is a prime example of the panic and denial that sets in when events seem to contradict your deeply-held and fiercely-defended beliefs.

He goes so far as to deny that the rebels even have any Buk systems, inherently claiming a massive conspiracy.

He also repeats the lazy old saw that neither the rebels nor Russia had any motive to shoot the liner down. Thus, his rebuttal of the current theory entirely IGNORES the actual argument of that theory (that MH17 was taken for a military target). So his entire article is a strawman from the first paragraph. From then on he merely parrots the Kremlin's innuendos, with no real commentary or analysis of his own. In his apparent desperation, he has neglected to do his homework, citing already-debunked tall tales like that of the Spanish air traffic controller. This should be the end of Roberts as a credible commentator on this conflict.

He also brings up the valid objection that an airliner should be easy to distinguish from a military craft. On this subject, I found an excellent article in a Finnish military publication, on the technical limitations of using the TELAR's built-in radar, and how it would have made such a tragic error quite probable:

http://suomensotilas.fi/en/responsibility-and-irresponsibility

Edited July 20, 2014 by maturin

[spooky lynx 73]

Why are the rebels still in control of the crash site? Why the Malaysian investigation team hasn't been allowed to examine the crash site? Malaysia is as neutral as anyone can get in this conflict... of course, I'm sure the US will try to influence Malaysian government to side with the west and condemn Russia/putin. For me, Russia could do the same, let the Malaysian team access to the site... why waste time? They've been in Ukraine since Saturday.

Who said Malaysian team is not allowed? Rebels themselves said the counter - they are waiting for investigators for a couple of days already but investigators don't hurry to arrive. So they are asking comission not to waste time but begin the investigation as soon as possible.

Because the separatists are stealing everything of value and are trying to remove everything that can act as evidence against them. Additionally they need time to move all their Buks and evidence back to russia (Of which we have videos in this thread already).

Aren't you tired yet of posting lies? Rebels said that they are ready to show the only Buk they have to comission. Oh and that video posted shows Buk in the town controlled by Kiev, BTW:) That's Krasnoarmeysk, not Krasnodon as claimed. Simple thing, there is no "Bogdan" auto showroom at the Krasnodon, billboard of which is shown at the video. UA propagandists are even unable to create good-quality video FPDR

[surpher 1]

Oh and that video posted shows Buk in the town controlled by Kiev, BTW:) That's Krasnoarmeysk, not Krasnodon as claimed. Simple thing, there is no "Bogdan" auto showroom at the Krasnodon, billboard of which is shown at the video. UA propagandists are even unable to create good-quality video FPDR

What video?

[maturin 12]

At least my sources weren't shaking some mysterious tube with white powder at the council claiming it was probe of Saddam's WMD.

You mean an entirely different government, over ten years ago? Colin Powell is retired.

But Putin is in office, and he was standing up before the entire world, smirking at the camera and not only telling lies, but absurd, transparent lies that no one was expected to believe. He said that Russian soldiers aren't Russian soldiers. Right is left. Up is down. There is no spoon. That's not me pissing on you, it's just the rain. Basically waving his dick at the entire planet. I know that Russians lap that stuff up, but when your head of state is completely unreliable, I don't see how are aren't ashamed to make counter-accusations or post a single link.

[spooky lynx 73]

What video?

This one.

I'd ask some questions to apologists of theory about drunken incompetent rebels pressed the button and shot the plane:

- why do you ignore the fact that Ukrainian Buks are deployed at that zone too?

- why do you ignore the fact that the only rebels' Buk is needed in other place - Lugansk and zone near the border where a number of UA brigades are surrounded?

- why do you ignore the fact that much of Ukraine military servicemen are poorly trained (even poorer that many of rebels) and they had already committed fatal mistake with passanger plane?

- why do you ignore the fact that during war time a chance for committing another fatal mistake by poorly trained UA military servicemen is even more?

- why do you ignore the fact that rebels don't have infinite ammo supplies so firing expensive and hard-to-resupply missile on some 2nd grade target when much more 1st grade (attack planes) fly near Lugansk? Doesn't basic logic tell you that the first way that Buk would be used is to shoot down ground attack planes near Lugansk where they are used in numbers for ground support of advancing junta troops?

- why do you ignore the fact that rebels use all vehicles they got rather smartly and give them to properly skilled crews only? They don't have huge stockpiles of former Soviet Army as their Ukrainian rivals do. So they aren't so dumb to give the only sophisticated Buk to some poorly trained guys.

I don't even say about the fact that no international agency proved that specifically Buk missile was the reason of plane crash yet:cool: It's only rumors. On the other side Ukrainian army has S-200 system deployed near Donbass battle zone.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[beastcat 14]

This one.

I'd ask some questions to apologists of theory about drunken incompetent rebels pressed the button and shot the plane:

- why do you ignore the fact that Ukrainian Buks are deployed at that zone too?

- why do you ignore the fact that the only rebels' Buk is needed in other place - Lugansk and zone near the border where a number of UA brigades are surrounded?

- why do you ignore the fact that much of Ukraine military servicemen are poorly trained (even poorer that many of rebels) and they had already committed fatal mistake with passanger plane?

- why do you ignore the fact that during war time a chance for committing another fatal mistake by poorly trained UA military servicemen is even more?

- why do you ignore the fact that rebels don't have infinite ammo supplies so firing expensive and hard-to-resupply missile on some 2nd grade target when much more 1st grade (attack planes) fly near Lugansk? Doesn't basic logic tell you that the first way that Buk would be used is to shoot down ground attack planes near Lugansk where they are used in numbers for ground support of advancing junta troops?

- why do you ignore the fact that rebels use all vehicles they got rather smartly and give them to properly skilled crews only? They don't have huge stockpiles of former Soviet Army as their Ukrainian rivals do. So they aren't so dumb to give the only sophisticated Buk to some poorly trained guys.

I don't even say about the fact that no international agency proved that specifically Buk missile was the reason of plane crash yet:cool: It's only rumors. On the other side Ukrainian army has S-200 system deployed near Donbass battle zone.

-Because if the Ukrainian Buks do exist and are not another russian lie, they still are 110km away from where the plane was shot down.

-Because rebel Buks have been spotted in Snischne earlier, which is very close to where the plane was shot down

-Because they are trained to use their equipment and are not giving equipment that they can't handle, unlike the separatists, who are pelted with high tech and highly dangerous equipment (Well, as high tech as <1992 can go). Also the plane that was shot down last time, was shot down under completely different circumstances and is not comparable

-Basically the point above, plus the separatists have no planes, therefore the Ukrainians don't try shooting any down. Additionally the Ukrainian government has the necessary coding in order to identify friend from foe.

-They have shot down SU-25 on many occassions and they do basically have infinite ammo, as long as they control parts of the border

-Again, point above, they have all weapons they wan't, except for weapons manufactured and designed after 1992. Additionally to that you can be as trained as you want, but "a big plane" can be an AN-26 (Which they though they shot down) or a Boing 777, no matter how trained you are. And again, the nearest Front is 70km away, the place where russia suggested there was AA is 110km away.

Now, why do YOU ignore all the facts we have told you and ignore all the times where I addressed you on behalf of them?

Also you always write "Oh, Putin said this, the rebels said that..." Yeah, very interesting what they say, the problem is they always do the complete opposite. Oh and now they suddenly do have a Buk all of the sudden? First they had one and were really proud, then it suddenly turned out they never had it and don't have anything comparable even in the slightest, then it was the Ukrainians who had the Buks right next to the border, deep into separatist territory, then there were no Buks but a ukrainian S-200 all of the sudden and then the rebels suddenly did have a Buk after all, which they couldn't smuggle out anymore?

How can you still take a country like that seriously?

Edited July 20, 2014 by beastcat

[Tonci87 163]

This one.

I'd ask some questions to apologists of theory about drunken incompetent rebels pressed the button and shot the plane:

- why do you ignore the fact that Ukrainian Buks are deployed at that zone too?

- why do you ignore the fact that the only rebels' Buk is needed in other place - Lugansk and zone near the border where a number of UA brigades are surrounded?

- why do you ignore the fact that much of Ukraine military servicemen are poorly trained (even poorer that many of rebels) and they had already committed fatal mistake with passanger plane?

- why do you ignore the fact that during war time a chance for committing another fatal mistake by poorly trained UA military servicemen is even more?

- why do you ignore the fact that rebels don't have infinite ammo supplies so firing expensive and hard-to-resupply missile on some 2nd grade target when much more 1st grade (attack planes) fly near Lugansk? Doesn't basic logic tell you that the first way that Buk would be used is to shoot down ground attack planes near Lugansk where they are used in numbers for ground support of advancing junta troops?

- why do you ignore the fact that rebels use all vehicles they got rather smartly and give them to properly skilled crews only? They don't have huge stockpiles of former Soviet Army as their Ukrainian rivals do. So they aren't so dumb to give the only sophisticated Buk to some poorly trained guys.

I don't even say about the fact that no international agency proved that specifically Buk missile was the reason of plane crash yet:cool: It's only rumors. On the other side Ukrainian army has S-200 system deployed near Donbass battle zone.

Ukrainian Buks are not deployed within range of the downed plane.

Ukrainian Buks don't have any reason to fire at air targets flying west to east.

Ukainian Buks have control stations and powerfull radars attached to them. They are much more likely to distinguish a civilian plane from a military one.

Ukrainian Buk controllers can easily cross check for civilian traffic.

Who told you that the rebels only have one Buk?

The rebel controlers could also be dudes who were trained o the system 20 years ago. And again the controller simply saw a high flying target, flying west to east with no IFF response and fired a missile. You don't have to be stupid or incompetent to do that. He simply assumed that he was dealing with another military plane.

Jst wow that you now say that it can't be pdoven that a Buk missile downed the plane aftef you recently were quite sure that a Air to Air missile downed the plane.

You change your opinion and arguments just as it suits you.

[surpher 1]

Oh and that video posted shows Buk in the town controlled by Kiev, BTW:) That's Krasnoarmeysk, not Krasnodon as claimed. Simple thing, there is no "Bogdan" auto showroom at the Krasnodon, billboard of which is shown at the video. UA propagandists are even unable to create good-quality video FPDR

This one.

So you are claiming Bogdan only advertises in towns/cities where they have showrooms?

[spooky lynx 73]

You really hadn't seen any radar indicator if you tell that An-26 doesn't differ from Boeing-777:)

-Because if the Ukrainian Buks do exist and are not another russian lie, they still are 110km away from where the plane was shot down.

I've posted their rather high-res photos here, it's not fake.

-Because rebel Buks have been spotted in Snischne earlier, which is very close to where the plane was shot down

Too close I'd say. On the other side Ukrainian Buks are nearby since 6th July and could be moved anywhere.

-Because they are trained to use their equipment and are not giving equipment that they can't handle, unlike the separatists, who are pelted with high tech and highly dangerous equipment. Also the plane that was shot down last time, was shot down under completely different circumstances and is not comparable

I see how are they trained - lost two planes because of stupid mistake, pilots just missed the runway while landing. Hadn't fortified their positions at all in battle zone, the result is catastrophic losses in Zelenopolye. Lost five tanks and one SPG from internal fire during preparations to operation. Attacked own forces of 51st brigade with helicopters after helos performed low attitude fly and even rookie pilot could realise that it's friendly troops. Yeah, good training...

You are right about different curcumstances, I say the same: if they shot down civilian jet during peaceful annual excercises - why couldn't they do the same during war time, surrounded with warmongering russophobic propaganda stating that FSBGRU agents are behind every bush and tens of Russian tanks and APCs cross the border every day? I don't even say about decrease of personell knowledge level as since the beginning of operation the only signs necessary for being drafted in army or NG are age and political trustworthiness. At the same time rebels lost no tank or APC or artillery piece because of improper use. The only losses they suffered are from enemy fire.

-They have shot down SU-25 on many occassions and they do basically have infinite ammo, as long as the control parts of the border

Strange but separatists themselves have other opinion and say the have rather limited stocks of ammo and vehicles.

And again, the nearest Front is 70km away, the place where russia suggested there was AA is 110km away.

It was seen there on 6th July. Where could it be some days later is question which has no answer yet.

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ----------

So you are claiming Bogdan only advertises in towns/cities where they have showrooms?

I hadn't seen any advertising billboard of company that does not sell its goods in the town where advertisement is set. What's the point of making billboard with the car that is sold some hundreds km away? Waste of money? For example I've never seen Audi advert billboard until they opened showroom here.

[jakerod 254]

I see how are they trained - lost two planes because of stupid mistake, pilots just missed the runway while landing. Hadn't fortified their positions at all in battle zone, the result is catastrophic losses in Zelenopolye. Lost five tanks and one SPG from internal fire during preparations to operation. Attacked own forces of 51st brigade with helicopters after helos performed low attitude fly and even rookie pilot could realise that it's friendly troops. Yeah, good training...

You are right about different curcumstances, I say the same: if they shot down civilian jet during peaceful annual excercises - why couldn't they do the same during war time, surrounded with warmongering russophobic propaganda stating that FSBGRU agents are behind every bush and tens of Russian tanks and APCs cross the border every day? I don't even say about decrease of personell knowledge level as since the beginning of operation the only signs necessary for being drafted in army or NG are age and political trustworthiness. At the same time rebels lost no tank or APC or artillery piece because of improper use. The only losses they suffered are from enemy fire.

That's not proof of anything. US soldiers, marines, and airmen, make similar mistakes and have a hell of a lot of training and experience. It's war, people make shit mistakes under pressure. I'm sure your separatist friends have made plenty as well. They just don't have to answer for them because they can always claim that it was an innocent civilian caught in cross fire.

Can you tell me where in Krasnoarmiis'k that video was taken? Find the intersection or something?

Russian Roulette (Dispatch 60) is out now. It is focused on the crash of MH17. Can't post the link for graphic reasons. It really made me think about what the last moments of some of those people's lives were like.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Jakerod

[beastcat 14]

The terrorists blew up an oil pumping station:

http://youtu.be/s2sU8gmn-wg

[spooky lynx 73]

That's not proof of anything. US soldiers, marines, and airmen, make similar mistakes and have a hell of a lot of training and experience. It's war, people make shit mistakes under pressure. I'm sure your separatist friends have made plenty as well. They just don't have to answer for them because they can always claim that it was an innocent civilian caught in cross fire.

So I'm surprised about how quickly many people took the version about rebels' mistake or even direct order to shot before any official conclusion and disregarding that Ukrainian servicemen can make (and already made several times) mistakes too. I'm surprised how quickly lots of people here became fanatics of version about 'evil rebels' and how quickly hysteria in mass media was started. Call me a tinfoil but I don't believe in such coincidences when so many media outlets start exaggerating one of the rumors and stating it as already officially proved reason.

Can you tell me where in Krasnoarmiis'k that video was taken? Find the intersection or something?

Maybe somewhere at Dnepropetrovskaya street. Adress of showroom is Dnepropetrovskaya st., 34.

P.S. 1488 post.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

So now they just terrorists? and where was that ,E-Ukraine? could been attacked or hit by ukrainian arty,planes or tankfire. something just as easy as saying terrorists blew it up! see how fast ppl will spew BS or believe anything they see or hear!?

Or mayby spin it around; it must been russian planes that attacked it or mayby it was a freeking UFO.