Ukraine General

[John Kozak 14]

There is no proof for this....

But a critical news report got released by Richard Perry; Consortiumnews:

The main critical point is the lack of intelligence informations by the US - there is silence. And this is really a strong point.

Wheras he overacts a bit for my taste with the Tonkin case, since there is in both ways not sure evidence yet about the MH17 case.

MH-17 Mystery: A New Tonkin Gulf Case?

Yet, the U.S. mainstream media remains stunningly disinterested in the “dog-not-barking†question of why the U.S. intelligence community has been so quiet about its MH-17 analysis since it released a sketchy report relying mostly on “social media†on July 22, 2014, just five days after the shoot-down.

A source briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the reason for the intelligence community’s silence is that more definitive analysis pointed to a rogue Ukrainian operation implicating one of the pro-regime oligarchs.

The source said that if this U.S. analysis were to see the light of day, the Ukrainian “narrative†that has supplied the international pressure on Russia would collapse. In other words, the Obama administration is giving a higher priority to keeping Putin on the defensive than to bringing the MH-17 killers to justice.

Two days later, on July 22, the Director of National Intelligence authorized the release of a brief report essentially repeating Kerry’s allegations. The DNI’s report also cited “social media†as implicating the ethnic Russian rebels, but the report stopped short of claiming that the Russians gave the rebels the sophisticated Buk (or SA-11) surface-to-air missile that the report indicated was used to bring down the plane.

In both cases, analysts in the U.S. intelligence community were less certain and even reached contrary conclusions once more evidence was available.

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/17/mh-17-mystery-a-new-tonkin-gulf-case/

With that logic, since GRU is silent on that matter, it 100% points to Putin's (ex-?)wife involvement. Typical conspiracy theory BS.

And no, there's no silence - all of the agencies have already said their word.

[oxmox 73]

With that logic, since GRU is silent on that matter, it 100% points to Putin's (ex-?)wife involvement. Typical conspiracy theory BS.

And no, there's no silence - all of the agencies have already said their word.

well, than pick the facts from the text and not his assumptions which I question aswell.

Did you even read the article or just some sentences ?

[Maxzy 12]

Obviously with the Pro-Russians in Ukraine the situation was different.

Yes, obviously. Every situation in the world, if it concernes russians, is always different. All others have everyhting the same. Every other insurgent / terrorist / guerrillas do not have fighter jets and are not supposed to have complex anti-aircraft systems. But, obviously, these are not usual insurgent / terrorist / guerrillas, no! These are not only pro-russian but also russian insurgent / terrorist / guerrillas. So despite not having fighter jets they just pulled complex anti-aircraft systems out of their asses and shot down some malaysian airplane because they're THAT bad. Oh, and that "complex anti-aircraft system" - it is too not so usual, it is magical in fact. Right after that it has vanished into thin fucking air and nobody has ever seen it or use again. And every ukrainian jet and helicopter that doesn't fly lower than 3 km never gets shot down ever since, happily bringing donbass people severed limbs and blown up houses. Obviously.

[John Kozak 14]

well, than pick the facts from the text and not his assumptions which I critisize aswell.

Did you even read the article or just some sentences ?

Sure I did and picked out the facts - all 0 of them.

Here are all his proofs:

"A source briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the reason for the intelligence community’s silence is that more definitive analysis pointed to a rogue Ukrainian operation implicating one of the pro-regime oligarchs."

Laughable.

[oxmox 73]

Sure I did and picked out the facts - all 0 of them.

Here are all his proofs:

"A source briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that the reason for the intelligence community’s silence is that more definitive analysis pointed to a rogue Ukrainian operation implicating one of the pro-regime oligarchs."

Laughable.

...really ?

Are you an expert that you know all of them are 0 facts, not even the reference to newspaper releases ?

[John Kozak 14]

...really ?

Are you an expert that you know all of them are 0 facts, not even the reference to newspaper releases ?

I don't need to be an expert to see that something is being pushed as objective truth without actually being backed. For example, in this specific article, there are only a couple of links to something outside that site, and none do in any way prove the article's alleged point. All other info is coming from some mysterious sources.

I also don't need to be an expert to see how you steer every conversation showing Russia in negative light into discussion of some kind of marginally coherent accusations of West. How about we actually discuss Russia? For example:

- How it lied about troops in Crimea

- How it blocks the MH17 tribunal formation

- How it forges the satellite photos http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11233420/Russian-pictures-of-MH17-being-shot-by-Ukrainian-jet-fake.html

- How there are 3 different versions on MH17, all "proved" by Ministry of Defence, First Channel, etc.

Let's actually discuss Russia, shall we?

Edited July 20, 2015 by DarkWanderer

[Tonci87 163]

Yes, obviously. Every situation in the world, if it concernes russians, is always different. All others have everyhting the same. Every other insurgent / terrorist / guerrillas do not have fighter jets and are not supposed to have complex anti-aircraft systems. But, obviously, these are not usual insurgent / terrorist / guerrillas, no! These are not only pro-russian but also russian insurgent / terrorist / guerrillas. So despite not having fighter jets they just pulled complex anti-aircraft systems out of their asses and shot down some malaysian airplane because they're THAT bad. Oh, and that "complex anti-aircraft system" - it is too not so usual, it is magical in fact. Right after that it has vanished into thin fucking air and nobody has ever seen it or use again. And every ukrainian jet and helicopter that doesn't fly lower than 3 km never gets shot down ever since, happily bringing donbass people severed limbs and blown up houses. Obviously.

You are aware that the path of the Buk has been traced from Russia to east Ukraine and that the rebels admitted that they shot down the plane?

[Maxzy 12]

You are aware that the path of the Buk has been traced from Russia to east Ukraine and that the rebels admitted that they shot down the plane?

Something very rare happened just now - I really laughed out loud. The only thing that I'm aware of is none of that happened. Where do you get this shit? Really.

[John Kozak 14]

Yes, obviously. Every situation in the world, if it concernes russians, is always different. All others have everyhting the same. Every other insurgent / terrorist / guerrillas do not have fighter jets and are not supposed to have complex anti-aircraft systems. But, obviously, these are not usual insurgent / terrorist / guerrillas, no! These are not only pro-russian but also russian insurgent / terrorist / guerrillas. So despite not having fighter jets they just pulled complex anti-aircraft systems out of their asses and shot down some malaysian airplane because they're THAT bad. Oh, and that "complex anti-aircraft system" - it is too not so usual, it is magical in fact. Right after that it has vanished into thin fucking air and nobody has ever seen it or use again. And every ukrainian jet and helicopter that doesn't fly lower than 3 km never gets shot down ever since, happily bringing donbass people severed limbs and blown up houses. Obviously.

There is a slight problem with your claims. Rebels have reported many G2A kills, and Ukrainian military has confirmed it. So, obviously they did have some sort of AA - better than MANPADS

[Tonci87 163]

Oh boy, I'm not even going to bother....

Maxzy, you must be new to this thread

[Maxzy 12]

Oh boy, I'm not even going to bother....

Maxzy, you must be new to this thread

Yes I am, yes I am =)). I am a grownup man and I too understand the futility of such conversations. It's like talking to marsians from outer space - people that never been to neither Russia nor Ukraine are telling me how things are (I'm not talking specifically about you of course). Things that I see every day with my very own eyes, mind you. Basically me too wasn't going to bother anymore - I just wanted to say a couple of things, which I did (becase "keep silent and Satan will prevail", y'know), then read whatever laughable bullshit you will give me a link to considering this -> the path of the Buk has been traced from Russia to east Ukraine and that the rebels admitted that they shot down the plane, and that would be it. No offence. Best regards.

---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 AM ----------

There is a slight problem with your claims. Rebels have reported many G2A kills, and Ukrainian military has confirmed it. So, obviously they did have some sort of AA - better than MANPADS

Every shotdown they made with IGLAs, on altitudes no more than 500-700 metres, mostly around airports during landings and take offs. Ukraininan pilots were no good, I mean not the pilots themselves but the planning of their missions was made by fat shit-for-brains ukrainian generals who didn't know shit about war. The result is that beautiful wiki-table.

[John Kozak 14]

Every shotdown they made with IGLAs, on altitudes no more than 500-700 metres, mostly around airports during landings and take offs. Ukraininan pilots were no good, I mean not the pilots themselves but the planning of their missions was made by fat shit-for-brains ukrainian generals who didn't know shit about war. The result is that beautiful wiki-table.

Do you have any sources for that? That wiki page and Ukrainian military claim rebels had shot down several aircraft with SAMs other than MANPADS. Also rebels themselves claimed possession of heavier SAMs - although they stopped doing so after the incident.

P.S.Already I can see that some kills were made using Zu-23, so you're wrong about "every"

Edited July 20, 2015 by DarkWanderer

[oxmox 73]

I also don't need to be an expert to see how you steer every conversation showing Russia in negative light into discussion of some kind of marginally coherent accusations of West. How about we actually discuss Russia? For example:

- How it lied about troops in Crimea

- How it blocks the MH17 tribunal formation

- How it forges the satellite photos http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11233420/Russian-pictures-of-MH17-being-shot-by-Ukrainian-jet-fake.html

- How there are 3 different versions on MH17, all "proved" by Ministry of Defence, First Channel, etc.

Let's actually discuss Russia, shall we?

How about the whole 800+ pages of this thread and what people inclusive me did post already ....

My assumptions about the MH17 incident goes into a different direction than the article - probably an accident and highly likely done by ukrainian seperatists, but Iam open for other views.

You are just prejudice claiming that I steer every conversation about Russia and accuse only the west which I do not do. Furthermore others posting considerable critics on Russia already and the other side of the coin want to be seen aswell.

But of course the west is aswell a part of the reasons why it did lead to such a conflict and since we are living in it with its values its especially important to know what we are actually doing, this includes criticism. Sorry if you dont see that or if you have a different opinion...alright, but you missed something.

Edited July 20, 2015 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

I don't need to be an expert to see that something is being pushed as objective truth without actually being backed. For example, in this specific article, there are only a couple of links to something outside that site, and none do in any way prove the article's alleged point. All other info is coming from some mysterious sources.

I also don't need to be an expert to see how you steer every conversation showing Russia in negative light into discussion of some kind of marginally coherent accusations of West. How about we actually discuss Russia? For example:

- How it lied about troops in Crimea

- How it blocks the MH17 tribunal formation

- How it forges the satellite photos http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11233420/Russian-pictures-of-MH17-being-shot-by-Ukrainian-jet-fake.html

- How there are 3 different versions on MH17, all "proved" by Ministry of Defence, First Channel, etc.

Let's actually discuss Russia, shall we?

Do you even follow international affairs? If you do, you know that lying is a big part of politics. You can find it in every single country, any time, all the time. So your critique should not be towards Russia, but towards all of mankind. Do you think a superpower stays a superpower, by abiding conventions, and telling the truth? In '99 the US and its NATO puppets seeded us with cluster mines and depleted uranium, where's the correctness in that?

P.S. the thread is not about Russia, it's about Ukraine.

[John Kozak 14]

How about the whole 800+ pages of this thread and what people inclusive me did post already ....

My assumptions about the MH17 incident goes into a different direction than the article - probably an accident and highly likely done by ukrainian seperatists, but Iam open for other views.

You are just prejudice claiming that I steer every conversation about Russia and accuse only the west which I do not do. Furthermore others posting considerable critics on Russia already and the other side of the coin want to be seen aswell.

But of course the west is aswell a part of the reasons why it did lead to such a conflict and since we are living in it with its values its especially important to know what we are actually doing, this includes criticism. Sorry if you dont see that or if you have a different opinion...alright, but you missed something.

You see, reading those 800 pages gives exactly opposite impression. Whatever you claim, your messages strongly support pro-Kremlin point of view. Find me one post where you explicitly critique Russian actions, please?

Also, saying "West is part of reasons of war" is like saying "provocative clothes are part of reasons I raped this woman". Not an excuse at all.

Do you even follow international affairs? If you do, you know that lying is a big part of politics. You can find it in every single country, any time, all the time. So your critique should not be towards Russia, but towards all of mankind. Do you think a superpower stays a superpower, by abiding conventions, and telling the truth? In '99 the US and its NATO puppets seeded us with cluster mines and depleted uranium, where's the correctness in that?

I do follow international affairs, and I find that "everyone does that" (whether it's true or false) is not an excuse. If you're aspiring to be a superpower, don't behave yourself like a "gopnik" on the street. Those guys actually have same apologetics - "you can't make so much money without robbing", "you are same shit like me", "everyone steals" etc.. And what's worse, those guys may attack you, but if you hit back, they go to police and tell a story how you attacked them.

And when that mindset is displayed by the top officials of the government, one knows his country is in deep shit. I am honestly ashamed to be a Russian citizen after watching how our representatives behave on world scene.

P.S. the thread is not about Russia, it's about Ukraine.

Russian actions around the conflict Ukraine are a pretty big part of the picture

Edited July 21, 2015 by DarkWanderer

[aleksadragutin 9]

Russian actions around the conflict Ukraine are a pretty big part of the picture

So are US and EU, but you don't wan't to talk about them.

[ProfTournesol 956]

So are US and EU, but you don't wan't to talk about them.

I didn't notice US or EU did invade Ukraine. But that's maybe too obvious.

[mistyronin 1181]

So are US and EU, but you don't wan't to talk about them.

In fact, it's Russia that invaded and annexed part of a sovereign country, Crimea (with all kind of cover lies, recognized by Putin himself).

It was also self-recognized Russian agents, like Igor Girkin, that promoted the violence in Eastern Ukraine.

The EU and US didn't do much to tell you the truth (besides the few sanctions, red-lines, and sending a little support to the sovereign Gov of Ukraine).

There's no reason in even argue those points. Both Putin and Girkin didn't do much to hide their involvement.

Conclusion Russia is a major part of the Ukrainian conflict, while the US & the EU unfortunately (IMHO) are just really secondary parts.

Edited July 21, 2015 by MistyRonin

[aleksadragutin 9]

I didn't notice US or EU did invade Ukraine. But that's maybe too obvious.

Let's get back to the beginning once again. Who supported (if not directly organized) the coup which caused the Ukrainian conflict? Who was the first to push propaganda? Why did Russia feel the need to step in?

A conflict like this doesn't just happen and drag on.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Let's get back to the beginning once again. Who supported (if not directly organized) the coup which caused the Ukrainian conflict? Who was the first to push propaganda? Why did Russia feel the need to step in?

A conflict like this doesn't just happen and drag on.

Do you despise so much the Ukrainian people that they can't get rid of their corrupted leaders by themselves ? Obviously what happened was largely supported by the Ukrainian people, but Russia was pissed off that one of their puppet was ousted that way.

[John Kozak 14]

Let's get back to the beginning once again. Who supported (if not directly organized) the coup which caused the Ukrainian conflict? Who was the first to push propaganda? Why did Russia feel the need to step in?

A conflict like this doesn't just happen and drag on.

Indeed, let's get back to basics.

How does a coup (even if it was orchestrated by someone else) warrant annexing territories from that country?

If Russia wanted to support Ukraine, perhaps it should have supported it, not starting to take it apart? Any government changes are this state internal affairs.

Edited July 21, 2015 by DarkWanderer

[oxmox 73]

You see, reading those 800 pages gives exactly opposite impression. Whatever you claim, your messages strongly support pro-Kremlin point of view. Find me one post where you explicitly critique Russian actions, please?

Also, saying "West is part of reasons of war" is like saying "provocative clothes are part of reasons I raped this woman". Not an excuse at all.

No dude, not like this.

Provide me your impressions, because you claim it and therefore you have to find it.

Most what I post are newspaper releases, thats all.

And when it comes to critique on Russia, all was said in my previous post why I sometimes decide to post critical articles the other way around. But you dont read it.

You give me the impression that you want that people follow a certain view, almost like someone is political active in a party.

Sorry, but you wont find this in discussion and yes Iam critical overall about western/US geopolitical actions.

If you have a different opinion than others, thats alright but than keep it objective if you really want to have a discussion...

Edited July 21, 2015 by oxmox

[John Kozak 14]

No dude, not like this.

Provide me your impressions, because you claim it and therefore you have to find it.

Most what I post are newspaper releases, thats all.

And when it comes to critique on Russia, all was said in my previous post why I sometimes decide to post critical articles the other way around. But you dont read it.

You give me the impression that you want that people follow a certain view, almost like someone is political active in a party.

Sorry, but you wont find this in discussion and yes Iam critical overall about western/US geopolitical actions.

If you have a different opinion than others, thats alright but than keep it objective if you really want to have a discussion...

I am sorry, but you have to provide some stronger arguments than those empty accusations if you want to have a discussion. Shall we start again?

On a related note, DNR/LNR claim to have started unilaterally withdrawing armor from the frontline. It's interesting whether there's a link to the renewed MH17 interest - as this seems to be the only related event which happened recently

Edited July 21, 2015 by DarkWanderer

[oxmox 73]

Kiev is fighting for debt relief (DieZeit, July 21st - google transl.)

In the shadow of the Greek another country pokers with its creditors.

To date, Ukraine differs from Greece - but perhaps not for much longer

Next week, the Ukrainian government could experience a bitter defeat - this time not in a battle in the east of the country, but in the fight for their own debts.

The game, which plays the Ukrainian government with its creditors, is similar at first glance like Greek: It is also about debt relief to more loans and reforms.

And just as determined the Ukrainians try until the end, to use the escalation as a negotiating tactic.

$ 23 billion of Ukraine's debts - in this height foreign creditors hold bonds of the Ukraine - with the aim to be reduced by 40 percent.

That was part of an agreement with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to get a loan tranche approved by the Fund in March.

The West Ukraine needs the money urgently. Even before the war in the East it was the economy miserable, but since the outbreak of the war it runs particularly bad. Last year the gross domestic product shrank by 6.8 percent; This year, the World Bank estimates the minus 7.5 percent. The Ukrainian currency hryvnia has lost in two years nearly two-thirds of their value, unemployment has increased, as expected.

The war itself would cost the Ukrainian budget five to ten million dollars a day, says the Finance Minister Natalija Jaresko. For creditors that was previously a good reason to be persistent in the negotiations.

Struggle for reforms

Unlike Athen, where austerity measures are regarded as a curse, the Ukrainian government is trying to adapt to the requirements of Western institutions. Not only IMF chief Christine Lagarde, but Angela Merkel and Barack Obama praised the obedience of Ukrainians in this issue.

It has adopted a new law on public procurement, the number of civil servants reduced by dozens of percent, successfully redeveloped the banking sector. The previously unprofitable gas prices for households were increased by nearly 300 percent.

For the fight against corruption an anti-corruption agency has been established.

To cite the Ukraine as a successful example of reforms, it is still too early. The influence of the oligarchs has hardly suffered.The fight against corruption sometimes looks more like a duel of powerful clans.

Without these laws Kiev did not get the money urgently needed by the Fund. Nevertheless, confidence in the West has not yet destroyed - it merely indicates the steps taken so far were not enough and the pace of reform needs to be increased.

Time of the populists

For the country it could be political consequences, which has been living for several years in free fall and its population is tired because of the rapid depletion.

.......economists like Oleh Ustenko from Bleyzer Fund warn that the hryvnia will again depreciate by about 20 percent even in the event of a successful agreement. If negotiations fail, the situation is likely to be much worse.

The party of Prime Minister Arseni Yatsenyuk came in a survey in June, only three per cent, so it is already fallen below the minimum threshold.

For comparison: In October 2014, the party had won the election with 22 percent.

Block Petro Poroshenko reached in the survey 16 per cent, so he has since autumn lost about a quarter of its electorate.

Benefits greatly, however, the Fatherland Party, the former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. She arrived in the survey on ten per cent, the number of its followers nearly doubled.

DieZeit - google transl.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Indeed, let's get back to basics.

How does a coup (even if it was orchestrated by someone else) warrant annexing territories from that country?

If Russia wanted to support Ukraine, perhaps it should have supported it, not starting to take it apart? Any government changes are this state internal affairs.

Oh, but there was an offer to support it before the coup. After the coup, there was a danger of NATO bases and installations in Ukraine, so Russia is creating a buffer zone.

I see Russian actions as a measure against expanding NATO.

Besides, by moving towards EU Ukraine will only lose its independence, and become a debt slave, like Greece and Serbia with "investors" taking all the capital away.

Edited July 22, 2015 by aleksadragutin