Ukraine General

[astral4eg 10]

OK, how much can we trust russian maps? I bet Ukrainian maps show a completely different picture. How much can we trust those?

Ukrainian maps show only the truth

as well as military casualties Ukraine does not (from the Ukrainian mass media messages)

:D

and if serious may be compared with the opposite map

Edited February 15, 2015 by astral4eg

[mistyronin 1181]

Another map ( Ukraine National Security & Defence Council ):

[Tonci87 163]

Ukraine Ceasefire Ignored as Fierce Battle for Debaltseve Continues to Rage
https://news.vice.com/article/ukraine-ceasefire-ignored-as-fierce-battle-for-debaltseve-continues-to-rage?utm_source=vicenewsyoutube&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=relatedarticle

"Of course we can open fire," Eduardo Basurin, a senior rebel commander of forces near Debaltseve, told Reuters. "It's our territory. The territory is internal: ours. And internal is internal. But along the line of confrontation there is no shooting."

Members of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) — the group responsible for monitoring the ceasefire — said rebels blocked them from entering Debaltseve on Sunday. They also noted that firing has indeed continued in the town. Both the rebels and the Ukrainian military blamed the firing on the enemy.

[oxmox 73]

Two or three days ago Russia suggested a UN Resolution for the Ukraine...

Russia did block in early 2014 the UN Resolution to nullify the crimea referendum, in June 2014 a UN Resolution was suggested by Russia for a peace plan & ceasefire.

Merkel, Hollande, Putin and Poroshenko for UN Resolution

The UN Security Council going to formulate a resolution for the Ukraine as soon as possible. This is what Germany, France, Russia and Ukraine agreed. The group of four is in constant contact.

Germany, France, Russia and Ukraine were in favor of a resolution of the UN Security Council to support the peace process in Ukraine. This was announced by deputy government spokesman Georg champion on Sunday evening after a conference call from Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President François Hollande and the presidents of Russia and Ukraine, Vladimir Putin and Petro Poroshenko, in Berlin.

We have welcomed the fact that the ceasefire will generally be observed. But the ongoing hostilities in particular the place Debaltseve cause great anxiety. Merkel, Hollande, Putin and Poroshenko therefore appeared determined to work towards full implementation of the ceasefire. The next step should be started on Tuesday with the agreed withdrawal of heavy weapons. The Ukrainian Army prepares the withdrawal according their own story. The guns would have to be removed but at the same time with the weapons of the separatists, it is said.

FAZ

Edited February 16, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The OSCE monitors ( the ones that according to the Minsk agreement are the monitors of the fulfillment of the conditions ) were turned back by the Pro-Russian fighters:

( Reuters ) OSCE says Ukraine rebels turn back monitors from Debaltseve

Rebels in eastern Ukraine refused to allow monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe to reach the encircled town of Debaltseve after a ceasefire took effect on Sunday, the head of the OSCE mission said.

[Sub-Human 10]

oxmox, do you actually understand what "ceasefire" means? It means sides refrain from shooting each other or preparing to do so, nothing more. It does not mean one side surrendering or abondoning their positions.

If Ukraine decides to keep their units in Debaltsevo they can, as long as they will not attack Separatists positions.

If they decide to abondon it, the only thing involving Seps is conditions at which Ukrainian soldiers pass through Sep controlled areas. And even that assuming Separatists actually surrounded it, since maps show they do not control mainroad and it vicinity.

Unfortunately this so-called 'ceasefire', is another appeasement to Putler and the Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine. Forcing the ceasefire after three days (and not immediately, like it was in the September Minsk agreements) was clearly a move to allow Russian soldiers and separatists to try and capture Debaltsevo, and pulling back heavy artillery hurts Ukraine unproportionally to the 'rebels'.

[Tonci87 163]

The interesting question is: Will the rebel artillery still be able to shell Debaltseve after it has been pulled back?

[mistyronin 1181]

after it has been pulled back

But are they gonna pull back? :j:

:cancan:

[ProfTournesol 956]

But are they gonna pull back? :j:

:cancan:

Probably not.

[Tonci87 163]

Probably not.

Well I think they will if their stuff remains in range of Debaltseve.

[metalcraze 290]

"rebels" are shelling and gloating over it since they know Ukraine is binded by the treaty. Which makes any treaty signed with Russia be worth the paper it is signed on.

Russian troops reasoning for this is... just... "hey they say Ukrainians aren't surrounded, so that means we are shelling nobody". What

Edited February 16, 2015 by metalcraze

[oxmox 73]

But are they gonna pull back? :j:

:cancan:

Ukraine rejects withrawel of artillery due to new fights (Reuters)

The Ukrainian military on Monday rejected the withdrawal of artillery from the region and justified it with the breaking of the ceasefire by the pro-Russian rebels.Their leader Denis Puschilin then said, according to the Interfax news agency, the separatists would only withdraw weapons if the government forces also are doing so. Under the agreement, both sides have to withdraw their heavy weapons from Tuesday.

Reuters

Battle rages for town where Ukraine rebels reject ceasefire

(Reuters) - Pro-Russian rebels pounded encircled Ukrainian government forces on Monday and Kiev said it would not pull back heavy guns while a truce was being violated, leaving a European-brokered peace deal on the verge of collapse a day after it took effect.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/02/16/uk-ukraine-crisis-idUKKBN0LK13520150216

Both sides seem to have problems with the agreement... :j:. The right sector of the Ukraine with several batallions under them did already reject the Minsk Agreement before the cease fire, for the seperatist leader the cease fire doesnt count for their inner region, since the ceasefire on both sides violations of the cease fire were counted.

Edited February 16, 2015 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, the truce wasn't possible from the start. The case of those 5000 Ukrainian soldiers trapped in Debaltseve should have been specifically taken into account in the Minsk deal.

[ballistic09 241]

lol.

[metalcraze 290]

The right sector of the Ukraine with several batallions under them did already reject the Minsk Agreement before the cease fire

I guess it shows how good Right Sector fighters are when a bunch of several dozen lightly armed people is called "several batallions" by russian invaders

[beastcat 14]

lol.

Why even try to prove something when they do it themselves?

For those who didn't notice: Those are 3x T-72B3s, designed in 2012 in Russia, in use from 2013 in Russia, never exported.

[metalcraze 290]

Meh, don't you worry. Only an idiot will believe that in one finger snap "oppressed" "miners" got turned into pro-fighters possessing hundreds of tanks, arty batteries and AA weaponry many of which are russian army exclusive for a reason that is beyond retarded (ukrainian government forbidding 5% of its territories to speak russian, while not touching anyone else). Especially after russian army already invaded Ukraine in Crimea. Nobody can be that stupid. Right? Right?!

Edited February 16, 2015 by metalcraze

[beastcat 14]

Meh, don't you worry. Only an idiot will believe that in one finger snap "oppressed" "miners" got turned into pro-fighters possessing hundreds of tanks, arty batteries and AA weaponry many of which are russian army exclusive for a reason that is beyond retarded (ukrainian government forbidding 5% of its territories to speak russian, while not touching anyone else). Nobody can be that stupid. Right? Right?!

According to polls 80% of russians are idiots then. Appears to be about right.

Chill, chill, I'm "ethnic" russian myself, it's not racist/ethnicist when I say it. :)

[Tonci87 163]

lol.

It´s amazing how retarded that guy actually is.

He presents to us 3 Russian T72-B3 tanks with Sosna-U gunsights (4channel, including thermal). You guessed, it, that stuff is exclusive to Russia and has never been exported.

Those rebels are indeed better armed than many EU countries. It´s really no surprise that the Ukrainian troops have so much trouble whenever separatist tanks show up.

[oxmox 73]

I guess it shows how good Right Sector fighters are when a bunch of several dozen lightly armed people is called "several batallions" by russian invaders

I dont know what russians are saying but wikipedia says the following:

Dmytro Yarosh (Ukrainian: Дмитро Ярош; born 30 September 1971) is a Ukrainian nationalist activist and politician. He is the leader of the far-right Right Sector.

Yarosh: I can send several battalions to Kyiv and resolve the government issue -> http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/18/yarosh-i-can-send-several-battalions-to-kyiv-and-resolve-the-government-issue/

Right sector components - Patriot of Ukraine; Tryzub (Trident); Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian National Self-Defense;

Right Sector became one of the main actors in the January 2014 Hrushevskoho Street riots, a part of the Euromaidan protests, in their later and more violent stages. Right Sector has been described as the most organized and most effective of the Euromaidan forces when it came to confronting police.[40] Right Sector claims that it was the main organizer of violent resistance against armed attacks by the state at Euromaidan.

Paramilitary operations

On 24 April 2014 Right Sector announced that it was moving its headquarters from Kiev to Dnipropetrovsk in order to monitor the situation in eastern Ukraine[60] and that it had begun to form a special battalion 'Donbass' for its paramilitary operations in the War in Donbass.

On 19 July 2014 Right Sector said it was ready to contribute 5,000 people to fight, if the military provided suitable combat equipment. (that was in July 2014, cant find infos how many man-power they have right now)

Members of the Patriot of Ukraine created its own separate territorial defense battalion, the Azov Battalion

Allegedly there are more battalions organized in this structure but I did not see further informations and dont know about it.

@metalcraze; check your source, it looks like its more than just some dozens light armed people and well known battalions are among them.

Edited February 16, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

( Reuters ) Battle rages for town where Ukraine rebels reject ceasefire

( AFP through Yahoo ) Ukraine says won't pull back heavy weapons because of rebel fire

[Sub-Human 10]

Those rebels are indeed better armed than many EU countries. It´s really no surprise that the Ukrainian troops have so much trouble whenever separatist tanks show up.

Mainly, it's because Ukraine continues to sell off its armaments. In 2012 it was #4 top arms exporter in the WORLD, behind USA, Russia and China. Ukrainian soldiers are sent to the frontlines with bare hands whilst all the equipment is sold off to the highest bidder. And Poroshenko will never win this war unless he starts a heavy anti-corruption campaign. Or USA makes sure any of its lethal aid isn't immediately written off to an African warlord.

And I have big doubts that the Russian government would give a bunch of miners, and 'volunteers' (mostly blue-collars from Russia) a 2012 tank modification. More than likely - these are used by actual Russian tank divisions.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Sub-Human

[oxmox 73]

I dont know what russians are saying but wikipedia says the following:

Dmytro Yarosh (Ukrainian: Дмитро Ярош; born 30 September 1971) is a Ukrainian nationalist activist and politician. He is the leader of the far-right Right Sector.

Yarosh: I can send several battalions to Kyiv and resolve the government issue -> http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/18/yarosh-i-can-send-several-battalions-to-kyiv-and-resolve-the-government-issue/

Right sector components - Patriot of Ukraine; Tryzub (Trident); Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian National Self-Defense;

Right Sector became one of the main actors in the January 2014 Hrushevskoho Street riots, a part of the Euromaidan protests, in their later and more violent stages. Right Sector has been described as the most organized and most effective of the Euromaidan forces when it came to confronting police.[40] Right Sector claims that it was the main organizer of violent resistance against armed attacks by the state at Euromaidan.

Paramilitary operations

On 24 April 2014 Right Sector announced that it was moving its headquarters from Kiev to Dnipropetrovsk in order to monitor the situation in eastern Ukraine[60] and that it had begun to form a special battalion 'Donbass' for its paramilitary operations in the War in Donbass.

On 19 July 2014 Right Sector said it was ready to contribute 5,000 people to fight, if the military provided suitable combat equipment. (that was in July 2014, cant find infos how many man-power they have right now)

Members of the Patriot of Ukraine created its own separate territorial defense battalion, the Azov Battalion

Allegedly there are more battalions organized in this structure but I did not see further informations and dont know about it.

@metalcraze; check your source, it looks like its more than just some dozens light armed people and well known battalions are among them.

It was reported that the leader of the Right Sector, Dymitro Yarosh, was posting the following on facebook among other points:

google translated:

13th February, 2014

1. In Russia and Putin any agreement impossible. THEY them will never be respected.

6. AC believes that any agreement with the pro-Russian terrorists have no legal effect, contradict the existing Constitution of Ukraine, and therefore their performance is not required for citizens. Therefore, if the Armed Forces will receive an order for the withdrawal of heavy equipment and artillery fire and nevidkryttya, Duc PS reserves the right to extend the active hostilities under their own operational plans, until the release of the Ukrainian lands from the Russian occupation

Explore Military-political movement "Right Sector" Dmitry Yarosh.

more:

https://www.facebook.com/dyastrub/posts/782660468477506

This means the political decisions and the Minsk Agreement are not supported by certain political groups and paramilitary units in the West-Ukraine, a controversial view.

The Volunteer Ukrainian Corps (DUC) has not been legalized like other battalions. How many soldiers in DUC? About seven thousand men. source

Edited February 16, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

This means the political decisions and the Minsk Agreement are not supported by certain political groups and paramilitary units in the West-Ukraine, a controversial view.

It's widely known that certain Ukrainian political parties and movements don't support the agreement, but they respect it and obey it. Even the Kremlin funded media said that the Ukrainian forces of all colors stopped their fire.

Unlike the Pro-Russian leadership that even before the start of the "ceasefire" they said that they would not respect it, and interpret the Minsk conditions it as they wanted. And it's already proven that the pro-Russian forces haven't respect it, shelling without stop Ukrainian positions and even denied the OSCE monitors to access certain areas.

[oxmox 73]

It's widely known that certain Ukrainian political parties and movements don't support the agreement, but they respect it and obey it. Even the Kremlin funded media said that the Ukrainian forces of all colors stopped their fire.

Unlike the Pro-Russian leadership that even before the start of the "ceasefire" they said that they would not respect it, and interpret the Minsk conditions it as they wanted. And it's already proven that the pro-Russian forces haven't respect it, shelling without stop Ukrainian positions and even denied the OSCE monitors to access certain areas.

Well, we dont post much about deeper information from such paramilitary units and therfore its probably interesting for all.

Yeah, the statement by the seperatists leader was definately not in agreement with the Minsk talks. Wheras both official ceasefire announcement were correct as far I remember. You can only imagine or suppose what is going on, in general the media is reporting that overall the ceasefire holds currently except around Debaltsevo. Violence of the ceasefire were counted by both sides and its hard to say what is going on on site if the OSCE gets blocked. Is there no OSCE watching the scene from the ukrainian positions ?