Ukraine General

[vilas 477]

Hitler did build the Autobahnen.

cause Jesus was walking after water surface, so didn't need autobahn

[John Kozak 14]

http://cdn.head-fi.org/a/a7/a706c2ad_tactical-team-facepalm-facepalm-demotivational-posters-1331896461.jpeg

Fact nugget: not understanding THAT level of sarcasm is one of diagnostic criteria hinting at dementia .

Edited September 14, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[aleksadragutin 9]

Not understanding THAT level of sarcasm is one of diagnostic criteria hinting at dementia .

Why am I arguing with you people? If you think western media is true and flawless(every media, has at least a bit of truth in it), then you are demented. Russian media lie when they spread rumors against Ukranians and the west, same as the west lies when spreading rumors about their enemies. Believe what you want, but please don't stubbornly accept anything opposite to Russia as the truth.

I understand sarcasm, it's just that the comparison is idiotic.

Edited September 14, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[Tonci87 163]

Of course the western media can be biased etc, but at least in the western media you couldn´t hear someone saying that the rebels crucified children. So yes the western Media is THAT MUCH better.

[spooky lynx 73]

How funny to see the reaction for the opinion that differs from yours (don't mean any personally) - "You are zombified by horrible Russian propaganda!!!!1 Poor people they don't know ZE TRUTH!!!!1". Guys, you know, truth may be different. And I'd remind to all the inhabitants of free states with no propaganda - if someone says things that are counter to your personal point of view - that does not mean they are brainwashed. There's a good proverb: "Most loudly shouts 'Catch the thief!' thief himself". And judging about how straightly depends opinion of some persons who moans about poor Russians zombified by Putin's propaganda on what is written in main western media outlets (yes I read them too together with UA and 'opposition' Russian stuff) I have bad news...

[ProfTournesol 956]

How funny to see the reaction for the opinion that differs from yours (don't mean any personally) - "You are zombified by horrible Russian propaganda!!!!1 Poor people they don't know ZE TRUTH!!!!1". Guys, you know, truth may be different. And I'd remind to all the inhabitants of free states with no propaganda - if someone says things that are counter to your personal point of view - that does not mean they are brainwashed. There's a good proverb: "Most loudly shouts 'Catch the thief!' thief himself". And judging about how straightly depends opinion of some persons who moans about poor Russians zombified by Putin's propaganda on what is written in main western media outlets (yes I read them too together with UA and 'opposition' Russian stuff) I have bad news...

Yes. Remind me of your wonderful theories about SU25 shooting down the MH17 ? Isn't that progaganda brainwashing ?

[spooky lynx 73]

Of course the western media can be biased etc, but at least in the western media you couldn´t hear someone saying that the rebels crucified children. So yes the western Media is THAT MUCH better.

Sure, there are other stories - how some bloody dictators shoot innocent protesters and civilians from heavy MGs and artillery. No matter that those protesters and civilians wear vests and have AKs. And sometimes display flags of some Gulf monarchy. And make firing positions in civil appartments, making holes in the walls. Really they are THAT MUCH better:)

[John Kozak 14]

Why am I arguing with you people? If you think western media is true and flawless(every media, has at least a bit of truth in it), then you are demented. Russian media lie when they spread rumors against Ukranians and the west, same as the west lies when spreading rumors about their enemies. Believe what you want, but please don't stubbornly accept anything opposite to Russia as the truth.

I understand sarcasm, it's just that the comparison is idiotic.

That's your demented imagination talking, no one is claiming/thinking things you describe here ;)

The sub-topic is about Russian media spreading misinformation, yet you constantly switch to bashing western ones. Hard to concentrate, eh? ;) And no, you don't understand sarcasm.

Lies are lies, "they do it too" is a bullshit excuse.

Edited September 14, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[aleksadragutin 9]

That's your demented imagination talking, no one is claiming/thinking things you describe here ;)

The sub-topic is about Russian media spreading misinformation, yet you constantly switch to bashing western ones. Hard to concentrate, eh? ;) And no, you don't understand sarcasm.

Lies are lies, "they do it too" is a bullshit excuse.

What is acceptable in the world is determined by how many people do it, so yeah. If everyone spreads propaganda, then you can't call one side evil.

And what do I describe? That media outside of Russia are capable of lying? How does my demented mind dear of conjuring such things?

Edited September 14, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[John Kozak 14]

What is acceptable in the world is determined by how many people do it, so yeah. If everyone spreads propaganda, then you can't call one side evil.

And what do I describe? That media out side of Russia are capable of lying, how does my demented mind dear of conjuring such things?

Okay, then by your definition murders are not evil. Every country (except maybe Vatican) has those. Hence, to have murders in country is not evil. In fact, Russia should have more murders - because those Westerners do have them.

Edited September 14, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[John Kozak 14]

And what do I describe? That media outside of Russia are capable of lying? How does my demented mind dear of conjuring such things?

You are painting everyone else as naive people not able to discern propaganda from facts - implying you are not falling for it and you know the truth

Which means, it's actually the other way around - Freudian projection at its finest ;)

[Rydygier 1317]

What is acceptable in the world is determined by how many people do it

Your morality and good/evil judgement is really based on public opinion statistics? The truth = voice of the majority? Come on.

If everyone spreads propaganda, then you can't call one side evil.

If both sides do evil things, then both sides do evil things. As simply as that. If one does much worse, then one does much worse. Hearing, what Russians, and some other people I know, that was in Russia recently, say about propaganda and its influence on the people there is and stays frightening as they're describing something very evil, and there is nothing, what you could say about other countries' practices, that could change this.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Rydygier

[vilas 477]

this hitler joke understanding make me rotfl :) i do not suprise that "ukrainian fascists cutting children by half in 2014" is believeable and "no Russian troops" aswell on such level of understanding

[aleksadragutin 9]

You are painting everyone else as naive people not able to discern propaganda from facts - implying you are not falling for it and you know the truth

Which means, it's actually the other way around - Freudian projection at its finest ;)

I never painted anyone as naive, but if you truly believe that only Russian media lie, then... I don't now what to say, I'm simply speechless.

---------- Post added at 16:20 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------

Your morality and good/evil judgement is really based on public opinion statistics? The truth = voice of the majority? Come on.

If both sides do evil things, then both sides do evil things. As simply as that. If one does much worse, then one does much worse. Hearing, what Russians, and some other people I know, that was in Russia recently, say about propaganda and its influence on the people there is and stays frightening as they're describing something very evil, and there is nothing, what you could say about other countries' practices, that could change this.

Of course morality is based on what's sociably acceptable.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I never painted anyone as naive, but if you truly believe that only Russian media lie, then... I don't now what to say, I'm simply speechless.

Ah, you poor naive people.

:rolleyes:

[vilas 477]

Of course morality is based on what's sociably acceptable.

but he said about truth, not morality,

truth is not equal morality, truth is that earth is round not flat, morality is not steal, makes difference

but of course you are right about morality itself , it is based on what people accept or not

[Tonci87 163]

So does that mean that thr Russian morality is that it is OK and socialy acceptale to lie? Sorry, but most Russians I know wouldn´t agree with you......

[vilas 477]

in some religions morality you can kill person who do some things , so yes, it is morality, whole world doesn't have one common morality system, in some nations/minorities it is acceptable to steal from other nations for example,

world is not homogenized but divided by different ideas and religions and morality types and different virtues, things good in one part of globe, are evil in other part of globe, another example - cooperation with boss and reporting about cooperators from company in some western/Asian countries is normal, in my country is treason of friends (comes from our tradition cause since 200 years governments and bosses were occupants so we trait boss like traitor so if anyone helps boss for us he is ass-licking traitor)

Edited September 14, 2014 by vilas

[Rydygier 1317]

Of course morality is based on what's sociably acceptable.

It's not about acceptable customs/habits. It's about ethics, integrity, conscience.

Terms of good and evil, same as truth (bounded together), aren't subjective (eg to the society's opinion) but objective (beeing good or evil isn't same as beeing considered by some people as such) and those are basis of the morality. Mine at least. If not yours - well, pity, but what we can do, it's free choice, what we want to believe in. Don't want to argue on ethical assumptions here. Just if we would talk, we need to remember, so each of us has something different in mind using these words.

[beastcat 14]

So some misterious country that does not want to be named may or may not sell Ukraine Javelins and other weapons in the near future.

[aleksadragutin 9]

It's not about acceptable customs/habits. It's about ethics, integrity, conscience.

Terms of good and evil, same as truth (bounded together), aren't subjective (eg to the society's opinion) but objective (beeing good or evil isn't same as beeing considered by some people as such) and those are basis of the morality. Mine at least. If not yours - well, pity, but what we can do, it's free choice, what we want to believe in. Don't want to argue on ethical assumptions here. Just if we would talk, we need to remember, so each of us has something different in mind using these words.

Have to disagree with you on this one. For example west will call their enemy's evil and western people would agree. East would say the same for the west and eastern people would agree. And then there is the information war which makes it even harder to recognize true evil. And my point this whole time was that everyone's doing it, so you can never be 100% sure of what you know. It is not enough to know the truth, you have to know the whole truth to make a good judgment, and that's why media don't have a full coverage, to show you the part of the picture they want you to see.

[Rydygier 1317]

I'm not going to argue with that, it's another matter indeed. Speaking of which, it's never possible to be 100% sure of anything. First goes always bare assumption. Act of faith. A choice. First is usually choice, should I trust my own mind and senses or not. Then, basing on own experiences and what not, we're constantly choosing, what is trustworthy, and what isn't. Especially, if we encounter two contradictory statements. No other option if we're seeking for the truth. That's why lying ("informational war" if we prefer) is so effective and damaging. Also because there is no man on this Earth knowing whole truth. So yes, indeed, we are only discussing here some pieces of the picture, while, the worse, part of them are false.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Rydygier

[aleksadragutin 9]

I'm not going to argue with that, it's another matter indeed. Speaking of which, it's never possible to be 100% sure of anything. First goes always bare assumption. Act of faith. A choice. First is usually choice, should I trust my own mind and senses or not. Then, basing on own experiences and what not, we're constantly choosing, what is trustworthy, and what isn't. Especially, if we encounter two contradictory statements. No other option if we're seeking for the truth. That's why lying ("informational war" if we prefer) is so effective and damaging. Also because there is no man on this earth knowing whole truth. So yes, indeed, we are only discussing here some pieces of the picture, while, the worse, part of them are false.

Exactly, and because you can't be 100% sure of anything it always helps being careful and using maybe, probably, and not marking something right away as evil. For all we know when faced with contradictory stuff is that what we were previously being told is actually wrong and thus forming our opinion.

[Rydygier 1317]

Agreed. As for me, I should add "maybe", "probably" and so forth in every sentence. For obvious reasons, I omit that, but you can assume, I'm never 100% sure, if I'm right...

So some misterious country that does not want to be named may or may not sell Ukraine Javelins and other weapons in the near future.

http://wpolityce.pl/swiat/213692-minister-obrony-ukrainy-kraje-nato-rozpoczely-sprzedaz-ukrainie-nowoczesnej-broni

The Minister of Defence of Ukraine: "NATO countries began selling modern weapons in Ukraine"

Another Ukrainian portal - "ukrinform.ua" recalled that NATO countries at the recent NATO summit denied that any binding decisions were made on the supply of Ukrainians fought with aggression of Russia. However, shortly after this Polish defense minister - Tomasz Siemoniak - said despite earlier dodging that Poland declared its willingness to arms sales in Ukraine, where it has come forward with a proposal to purchase.

A few weeks before the NATO summit German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier suggested that Poland sent weapons fighting the Kurds in northern Iraq against the Islamists. German politician justified is that the Kurds have experience in the use of post-Soviet arms ammunition, which Poland has in their warehouses.

Does the proposal of Berlin aimed at stopping of the possible sale of arms and ammunition Ukrainians and redirect it in accordance with the ideas of our western neighbor?

Edited September 14, 2014 by Rydygier

[Tonci87 163]

What I do know is that the Russian propaganda was spreading infinitely much more bullshit during this crysis than the western one. And nothing you say will change simple facts.