Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

Oxmox, I think everyone would care not to bomb a nuclear reactor, as it would affect everyone, Russia included and for decades or more.

EDIT: I was wrong:

- - -

( The Guardian ) 'Too cautious' Obama urged to get tough on Russia and Isis

Republicans and Democrats call on president to take harder approach on Russian intervention in Ukraine and Isis in Syria

Edited August 31, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

Oxmox, I think everyone would care not to bomb a nuclear reactor, as it would affect everyone, Russia included and for decades or more.

( The Guardian ) 'Too cautious' Obama urged to get tough on Russia and Isis

It is not only about "to care" its about the risks which are described in the further article...maybe you should read it first. This is a serious threat IF the conflict would escalate more and widen out and you cant just be too lax about this toppic.

How many countries has any of the Western Nations annexed?

Some history books or infos in the internet will list them for sure...

Edited August 31, 2014 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

It was unneeded extensive use of force, with no legal backbone. So yes it was an aggression (1992-2007), with effects still felt today.

---------- Post added at 18:01 ---------- Previous post was at 17:59 ----------

None, but it sure created couple of new ones, and destroyed some economies. If the war was provoked it sure wasn't by Serbia since the other countries separated from it.

Oh how could those evil other states decide to seperate from their opressors? How oh how? Such Injustice!

Dude seriously?

[astral4eg 10]

Aggressing the aggressor you mean.

Edited September 1, 2014 by astral4eg

[ProfTournesol 956]

Such a short memory...as if Russia never went to Afghanistan....as if Chechnya never existed...

[astral4eg 10]

Such a short memory...as if Russia never went to Afghanistan....as if Chechnya never existed...

Can continue the list?

About 300 pages ago I calculated, 20-21 centuries NATO had twice as military interventions than Russia

[ProfTournesol 956]

can continue the list?

about 300 pages ago I calculated, 20-21 centuries NATO had twice as military interventions than Russia

Don't confuse NATO with USA please. And i fail to see why it should excuse Russia to behave that way.

[beastcat 14]

Don't confuse NATO with USA please. And i fail to see why it should excuse Russia to behave that way.

According to wikipedia Russia was actually in 2 more wars since the fall of the soviet union than the US. (Not counting the 1990 Gulf War, because it started to early)

[astral4eg 10]

Don't confuse NATO with USA please.

US is the most important and the most powerful member of NATO, NATO without the US it's nothing

And i fail to see why it should excuse Russia to behave that way.

After the Coup d'état in Ukraine after the government seized "Nazis" and after a persecution of the Russian-speaking population, and after the infamous February-may events people in the South-East of Ukraine realized that they not have a common future with the new Ukraine. People held a referendum, where the vast majority (95% Crimea, Donetsk 91%, Lugansk 95%) voted for secession from Ukraine into Russia, it's a legitimate civilized way? Well, after that, Ukraine has started to kill its citizens in the East of Ukraine, though prior to this they had clashes with the right sector.

[vilas 477]

infamous events ? you fight with corrupted politician who steal money from budget call infamous events ? :O

nazis ? also russian propaganda

[mistyronin 1181]

After the Coup d'état in Ukraine after the government seized "Nazis" and after a persecution of the Russian-speaking population,

A "coup" in which the parliament ( including the Party of the Regions ) legally remove all the powers of Yanukovich.

How could they be so "nazis" or do a "coup" if that followed the legal method by the Ukrainian Constitution.

BTW when you mean nazis, what do you mean? Because the Ukrainian Gov. doesn't follow any of the ideas of the NSDAP.

BTW, also what persecution are you talking about? Because almost half of Ukraine is Russian-Speaking, and only a minority started an insurrection. And none of the Russian-Speakers in the rest of the country has denounced any persecution.

BTW a referendum to be valid, has to have certain democratic guarantees ( you know, that is safe to vote, no threads, neutral foreign observers, etc. ); non of those was followed ( neither in the Crimean one BTW, and it's not my word, it

s what the majority of the countries of the world said in the UN ).

[vilas 477]

http://www.stopfake.org/en/tag/russian-propaganda/

some stuff about fakes shown mostly in Russian media, but also in Ukrainian (less fake)

[Rydygier 1317]

The more I'm thinking about all this, the bigger becomes one question: how to effectively defeat a lie? It is never about the fact itself. It is about inevitable in the cognitive process a priori choosing, what or who we would like to trust by assumption when learning about the fact. This is always first. So it is about narration, we choose to believe in.

So, Russians are brainwashed (thus supporting Putin as a nation). But the same they think about people cliaming that about them. Defeating a lie is to make people choose the truth to believe in. How to achieve such thing, victory of the truth, in such situation? Did such list of Russian lies convinced anybody for real? Doubtful. Why should? If someone in Russia was convinced by this, he most likely will be conviced back as soon he turn on TV, read the paper or official online news - not worse object of trust than any other news site, blog or whatever. All may be questioned alike. In such situation, under all this propaganda bombardment, how to choose what to believe? In face of equally acceptable narrations wouldn't we choose, what better fits our current overwiev and/or sounds "prefferably"?

This thread has more than 5000 posts now. How many debaters or readers truly changed their minds, was convinced to change a stance during that discussion?

[aleksadragutin 9]

Oh how could those evil other states decide to seperate from their opressors? How oh how? Such Injustice!

Dude seriously?

Yugoslavia --- WAR ---- Yugoslavia + Croatia + Bosnia + Slovenia + Macedonia. Ergo it was a rebellion. If the excuse was the "oppression" (which is ridicules) then why doesn't it hold water now? HYPOCRISY!

---------- Post added at 08:41 ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 ----------

Don't confuse NATO with USA please. And i fail to see why it should excuse Russia to behave that way.

NATO=USA. Come on, you don't know that by now?

---------- Post added at 08:42 ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 ----------

According to wikipedia Russia was actually in 2 more wars since the fall of the soviet union than the US. (Not counting the 1990 Gulf War, because it started to early)

Would you care to wright them down?

---------- Post added at 08:50 ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 ----------

A "coup" in which the parliament ( including the Party of the Regions ) legally remove all the powers of Yanukovich.

How could they be so "nazis" or do a "coup" if that followed the legal method by the Ukrainian Constitution.

BTW when you mean nazis, what do you mean? Because the Ukrainian Gov. doesn't follow any of the ideas of the NSDAP.

BTW, also what persecution are you talking about? Because almost half of Ukraine is Russian-Speaking, and only a minority started an insurrection. And none of the Russian-Speakers in the rest of the country has denounced any persecution.

BTW a referendum to be valid, has to have certain democratic guarantees ( you know, that is safe to vote, no threads, neutral foreign observers, etc. ); non of those was followed ( neither in the Crimean one BTW, and it's not my word, it

s what the majority of the countries of the world said in the UN ).

Of course that this referendum is illegal now, but when it played in favor of the west it was legal. Example's are referendums of 2006 and 2007 on the Balkans. The west decides to back some rebels and condemn others. Why is that? Oppression? No, they don't giva a f*** about others, it's only their political interests.

Edited September 1, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[Tonci87 163]

Yugoslavia --- WAR ---- Yugoslavia + Croatia + Bosnia + Slovenia + Macedonia. Ergo it was a rebellion. If the excuse was the "oppression" (which is ridicules) then why doesn't it hold water now? HYPOCRISY!

I already showed you more than enough examples for the opression a few pages ago. If you choose to ignore facts and cling to your version of the history, fine.

And no it wasn´t a Rebellion, especially not one like we see now in Ukraine.

Some History lesson here

Croatia held an independence referendum on 19 May 1991, following the Croatian parliamentary elections of 1990 and the rise of ethnic tensions that led to the breakup of Yugoslavia. With 83 percent turnout, voters approved the referendum, with 93 percent in favor of independence. Subsequently, Croatia declared independence and the dissolution of its association with Yugoslavia on 25 June 1991, but it introduced a three-month moratorium on the decision when urged to do so by the European Community and the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe through the Brioni Agreement. The war in Croatia escalated during the moratorium, and on 8 October 1991, the Croatian Parliament severed all remaining ties with Yugoslavia. In 1992, both the European Economic Community and the United Nations granted Croatia diplomatic recognition.

And then this

On 7 October, the eve of expiration of the moratorium, the Yugoslav Air Force attacked Banski dvori, the main government building in Zagreb.[21][22] On 8 October 1991, the moratorium expired, and the Croatian Parliament severed all remaining ties with Yugoslavia. That particular session of the parliament was held in the INA building on Pavao Šubić Avenue in Zagreb due to security concerns provoked by recent Yugoslav air raid;[23] Specifically, it was feared that the Yugoslav Air Force might attack the parliament building.[24] 8 October is now celebrated as Croatia's Independence Day.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_independence_referendum,_1991

The (now completely Serb controlled) JNA bombed the freaking parliament building. So guess who started the war....

I East Ukraine we have a true Rebellion. It is especially noteworthy how it basically started out of nowhere, without any prior political struggle for greater autonomy.

[aleksadragutin 9]

I already showed you more than enough examples for the opression a few pages ago. If you choose to ignore facts and cling to your version of the history, fine.

And no it wasn´t a Rebellion, especially not one like we see now in Ukraine.

Some History lesson here

And then this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_independence_referendum,_1991

The (now completely Serb controlled) JNA bombed the freaking parliament building. So guess who started the war....

I East Ukraine we have a true Rebellion. It is especially noteworthy how it basically started out of nowhere, without any prior political struggle for greater autonomy.

The referendum then like now was not legal, but some chose to ignore the fact.

It was not an attack it was an "anti-terror" operation as some might put it today.

But that's all offtopic.

In short NATO is a much greater aggressor than Russia.

[papanowel 120]

I don't contribute much on this topic but I read it on daily basis.

My 2 cents:

Some here, really needs to open their minds and travel a bit to see what is going on outside their country/hometown or even continent.

[Tonci87 163]

The referendum then like now was not legal, but some chose to ignore the fact.

It was not an attack it was an "anti-terror" operation as some might put it today.

But that's all offtopic.

In short NATO is a much greater aggressor than Russia.

The Referendum then was legal, and bombing a Parliament building inside a crowded city just out of spite and to intimidate the other side is not an anti terror operation....

Well if you really want to go the historical route, then Russia is the greater agressor. They attacked the sourrounding Countries much more often than NATO did. :rolleyes:

[beastcat 14]

Would you care to wright them down?

US Military conflicts:

1992 Operation Restore Hope

1993 Bosnian War

1994 Operation Uphold Democracy

1998 Kosovo War

2001 War in Afghanistan

2003 Iraq War

2011 military intervention in Libya

2014 American intervention in Iraq

Russian Military conflicts:

1992 War of Transnistria

1992 East Prigorodny Conflict

1992 Civil War in Tajikistan

1993 Georgian Civil War

1994 First Chechen War

1999 War of Dagestan

1999 Second Chechen War

2008 Russo-Georgian War

2009 North Caucasus Insurgency

2014 Ukraine War/Crimean Annexation

[astral4eg 10]

infamous events ? you fight with corrupted politician who steal money from budget call infamous events ? :O

infamous events this is event when people burned alive in Trade Unions House by Ukrainian nationalists,

and those who jumped out of the windows was finished off with clubs, and other less known actions on the right sector.

nazis ? also russian propaganda

your humor is inappropriate.

little will refresh your memory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnUdc2fD9pg

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26394980

after all of this and appeared pro-russians separatists.

you fight with corrupted politician who steal money from budget

do you think now Ukraine govern honest decent people?

Edited September 1, 2014 by astral4eg

[vilas 477]

it was clarified dozen times few months ago and many movies were shown - it was not Ukrainians who set fire

but Russian minority started throw molotovs from roof and they set a fire themselves

[Tonci87 163]

Yep, we could watch it during the livestream. Yes there were beatings, but the fire came from the Pro Russians themselves.

[sudayev 27]

But what can you tell as an average russian Oleg? You watch Kremlin controlled media, newspapers, portals where they are literally pounding you with constant images of right sector, branding ALL Ukrainians as nationalists, blaming them for all evil and still feeding you of good old stories of how USSR liberated the Europe from Hitler(the same Hitler they were allied with) and brought peace and prosperity to many nations of Europe . No wonder that Russian aggression taking place in eastern Ukraine is explained as freeing the Ukraine from rule of hitlerist Kiev. To add some spice; a good old propaganda art will do the job and will show to average Oleg that such things take place in Kiev's Maidan every Friday night.

[astral4eg 10]

it was clarified dozen times few months ago and many movies were shown - it was not Ukrainians who set fire

but Russian minority started throw molotovs from roof and they set a fire themselves

You seriously believe that people in the building themselves burned?

"Themselves burned, killed himself"... Normally you washed...

[beastcat 14]

You seriously believe that people in the building themselves burned?

"Themselves burned, killed himself"... Normally you washed...

Because accidents do not exist and are a fiction created by nazi jews.