Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

I followed the previous posts, so that's why this is offtopic : Ukraine isn't about to join EU. You may want to create a topic about Serbia and former Yugoslavia if you wish, but this is irrelevant here.

The mess in Ukraine started because of a tendency to join EU. Some people here don't know the policy of EU, or the implications that it might have on Ukraine so I was just here to elaborate. It is not irrelevant as the whole thing is about weather or not Ukraine will join EU and eventually NATO.

[ProfTournesol 956]

The mess in Ukraine started because of a tendency to join EU. Some people here don't know the policy of EU, or the implications that it might have on Ukraine so I was just here to elaborate.

Nope, that's an over simplification. The mess in Ukraine came from the wish of Ukrainian people for more democracy and freedom, less corruption and less domination from their overwhelming neighbour. If that means collaborating (not joining) with the EU, that's great. But contrary to the Russian growing imperialism, EU has no major interest in seing more poor countries joining it ATM, because that will cost us a lot.

My personal view is that Ukraine obviously cannot cut its economic relationships with Russia.

[Tonci87 163]

Oh really, the other countries in YU were not dominated by Serbia?

OK lets see how it was in Croatia, I can only imagine that it must have been much worse for Bosnia and the Albanian minorities:

1969 per official government reports: 73.6% of the government was filled with Serbs, Croatians 8.6%, 10 years later the percentage of Croatians droped to 6% and it remained like that to the end.

Military and Police had 75 to 80% Serb personel.

In `87 Yugoslavia had 83 ambassadors. 27 Serbs and 8 Croats. The problem was even more obvious when you looked at the whole ministry of external affairs of 2400 People only 60 were Croats.

In Croatia the political, executional and military power was from the very beginning in the hands of the Serb minority. 14% of the population in Croatia were Serbs, yet they held more than 50% of the important Government functions.

Even in Zagreb, Croatias Capital where the Serbs had a minority of 5% more than 60% of the Police force was made up by Serbs.

To show that this was going like that from the beginning, in 1952 78% of the police force in Croatia was made up by Serbs.

The Situation in Bosnia was much worse.

Serbs dominated everything.

Croatian culture was surpressed heavily. Children in School didn´t learn Croatian, they learned Serbo-Croatian. National monuments were destroyed.

You went to celebrate something with a few buddys in a bar and started singing something national, the Police showed up and beat the shit out of you.

You wanted to become something in this state you had to be a party member. Party members couldn´t go to church (not to the catholic one, the orthodox church didn´t have that problem, guess why.)

Also read up on the Croatian Spring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Spring

A movement for more national rights and how the police simply beat the shit out them before the arrests.

Also read up on the UDBA (secret service) executions all around the world where they killed supporters of Croatian nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Administration#Eliminations.5B4.5D

Profits made in the republics like Croatia mainly went straight to Serbia were they were reinvested.

"As examples of the diversion of funds to Belgrade, in the late 1960s, Croatia created 27 per cent of national income and earned about 50 per cent of Yugoslavia's foreign exchange, largely due to tourism on the Dalmatian coast, yet received only 15 per cent of new investments; while Serbia created 33 per cent of national income and 25 per cent of foreign exchange, yet Serb banks controlled 63 per cent of total bank assets and 81.5 per cent of foreign credits. "

Good read

http://links.org.au/node/166

Now please explain how and where I lie.

[surpher 1]

(Reuters) Ukraine border guards clash with rebels near Russian border

Semen Semenchenko, commander of the pro-government Azov militia, said on his Facebook page that around 50 armored vehicles had crossed the border from Russia.

About 40 of them were trying to move in the direction of Mariupol while the remainder were moving north towards Amvrosiyivka, he said.

[vilas 477]

Polish press translates information from of Ukrainian press or Ukrainian Army spokesman that:

- Ukrainians found graves in which there are Russian citizens found (fighting on rebel side),

- Russians (they not use word Russian Federation Army or it is about Russian-ethinc) enter Ukraine from Russian territory with 2 tanks, dozen apcs and there is heavy firefight at the moment (news has 1 hour)

so far no solid proofs / photos etc.

(...)official government reports: 73.6% of the government was filled with Serbs, (...)

Serbs had a minority of 5% more than 60% of the Police force was made up by Serbs.

always sounds horrible, when minority try to dictate their rules to majority

Edited August 25, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Molotov aka Lavrov said he didn't see any "mistreatement" nor "humiliation" in what happened yesterday :

Mr Lavrov said this was "nowhere near mistreatment" and that Ukrainian fighters' actions often amounted to "war crimes".

"I saw images of that parade and I didn't see anything close to what could be considered as humiliating," he said.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Oh really, the other countries in YU were not dominated by Serbia?

OK lets see how it was in Croatia, I can only imagine that it must have been much worse for Bosnia and the Albanian minorities:

1969 per official government reports: 73.6% of the government was filled with Serbs, Croatians 8.6%, 10 years later the percentage of Croatians droped to 6% and it remained like that to the end.

Military and Police had 75 to 80% Serb personel.

In `87 Yugoslavia had 83 ambassadors. 27 Serbs and 8 Croats. The problem was even more obvious when you looked at the whole ministry of external affairs of 2400 People only 60 were Croats.

In Croatia the political, executional and military power was from the very beginning in the hands of the Serb minority. 14% of the population in Croatia were Serbs, yet they held more than 50% of the important Government functions.

Even in Zagreb, Croatias Capital where the Serbs had a minority of 5% more than 60% of the Police force was made up by Serbs.

To show that this was going like that from the beginning, in 1952 78% of the police force in Croatia was made up by Serbs.

The Situation in Bosnia was much worse.

Serbs dominated everything.

Croatian culture was surpressed heavily. Children in School didn´t learn Croatian, they learned Serbo-Croatian. National monuments were destroyed.

You went to celebrate something with a few buddys in a bar and started singing something national, the Police showed up and beat the shit out of you.

You wanted to become something in this state you had to be a party member. Party members couldn´t go to church (not to the catholic one, the orthodox church didn´t have that problem, guess why.)

Also read up on the Croatian Spring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Spring

A movement for more national rights and how the police simply beat the shit out them before the arrests.

Also read up on the UDBA (secret service) executions all around the world where they killed supporters of Croatian nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Security_Administration#Eliminations.5B4.5D

Profits made in the republics like Croatia mainly went straight to Serbia were they were reinvested.

"As examples of the diversion of funds to Belgrade, in the late 1960s, Croatia created 27 per cent of national income and earned about 50 per cent of Yugoslavia's foreign exchange, largely due to tourism on the Dalmatian coast, yet received only 15 per cent of new investments; while Serbia created 33 per cent of national income and 25 per cent of foreign exchange, yet Serb banks controlled 63 per cent of total bank assets and 81.5 per cent of foreign credits. "

Good read

http://links.org.au/node/166

Now please explain how and where I lie.

Boohoh. You lived so terribly. Suppressing nationalism is communist trait, and has nothing to do with Serbia. Serbs who would sing Serbian instead of Yugoslavian anthem would also get arrested and possibly shot. That kinda thing has nothing to do with nationality

And may I remind you that the most high ranking official (bog i batina) in Yugoslavia up to 1980 was a Croat. And it is logical that government should consist of more Serbs than Croats, because Serbia has greater territory and population.

But we're getting way offtopic here.

[Tonci87 163]

Hey Croatians be happy, you had one high ranking official wohoo. Look again at the numbers and realize that most of those numbers are for Croatia, not the whole SFRJ. A good example for whole SFRJ number is the ministry of external affairs. 2400 employees, only 60 croats. Greater territory and population? maybe, but not higher income and still most of the money went to Serbia.

[mistyronin 1181]

(Reuters) Ukraine border guards clash with rebels near Russian border

More on that. BTW it looks like a joke that a full column advancing from Russia to Mariupol ( dozens of kms south of the Pro-Russian territory ) I guess that Russian Border guards went for a drink and didn't see them coming...

( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: 'Column from Russia' moves on Mariupol

The Ukrainian military says it is battling rebel armoured vehicles that crossed from Russia and headed to the south-eastern city of Mariupol.

It said the column was halted near the town of Novoazovsk.

One military commander said pro-Russian rebels might be trying to open up a new southern front.

[beastcat 14]

[oxmox 73]

I followed the previous posts, so that's why this is offtopic : Ukraine isn't about to join EU. You may want to create a topic about Serbia and former Yugoslavia if you wish, but this is irrelevant here.

What about the "Euromaidan"

Euromaidan (/ËŒjÊŠÉ™rɵmaɪˈdÉ‘Ën/; Ukrainian: Євромайдан, Yevromaidan, literally "Euro Square") was a wave of demonstrations and civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on the night of 21 November 2013 with public protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti ("Independence Square") in Kiev, demanding closer European integration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/01/ukrainian-protests-european-union-hope

Only some days ago the Ukraine did report about a 5 years plan to join EU and NATO.

Edited August 25, 2014 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

What about the "Euromaidan"

Euromaidan (/ËŒjÊŠÉ™rɵmaɪˈdÉ‘Ën/; Ukrainian: Євромайдан, Yevromaidan, literally "Euro Square") was a wave of demonstrations and civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on the night of 21 November 2013 with public protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti ("Independence Square") in Kiev, demanding closer European integration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

Only some days ago the Ukraine did report about a 5 years plan to join EU and NATO.

The scope of the protests expanded, with many calls for the resignation of President Viktor Yanukovych and his government.[76] The protests ultimately led to the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. Many protesters joined because of the violent dispersal of protesters on 30 November and "a will to change life in Ukraine".[6] By 25 January 2014, the protests had been fuelled by the perception of "widespread government corruption", "abuse of power", and "violation of human rights in Ukraine".[77]

12345

[ProfTournesol 956]

What about the "Euromaidan"

Euromaidan (/ËŒjÊŠÉ™rɵmaɪˈdÉ‘Ën/; Ukrainian: Євромайдан, Yevromaidan, literally "Euro Square") was a wave of demonstrations and civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on the night of 21 November 2013 with public protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti ("Independence Square") in Kiev, demanding closer European integration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

Only some days ago the Ukraine did report about a 5 years plan to join EU and NATO.

Yeah, i perfectly know this, still Ukraine isn't about to join EU, that's a fact, the Euromaidan was about a collaboration agreement with EU (refused by Yanuk Under Russian pressure) and being more close to the European democratic model than the Russian corruption and domination one.

[oxmox 73]

Yeah, i perfectly know this, still Ukraine isn't about to join EU, that's a fact, the Euromaidan was about a collaboration agreement with EU (refused by Yanuk Under Russian pressure) and being more close to the European democratic model than the Russian corruption and domination one.

The major slogan for the starting protest was the EU ratification. Of course it was about the EU.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/01/ukrainian-protests-european-union-hope

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25162563

Edited August 25, 2014 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

The major slogan for the starting protest was the EU ratification. Of course it was about the EU.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/01/ukrainian-protests-european-union-hope

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25162563

Ok, if you don't want to understand, i can't help you.

[oxmox 73]

Ok, if you don't want to understand, i can't help you.

You have to explain it better, did you read the articles ? How do you argue that it was not about the EU, which was all over in the media and you will find endless reports about it in the news. You are saying that it was not about directly beeing a member of the EU, this is right but at the end thats the aim and it isnt only about the expansion of the EU, NATO plays a role aswell. Of course Russia is worried about it and felt like someone did step on their toes, especially about the strategically importance of the crimea which they will never give up. Just some days ago there was a 5 years plan to join EU and NATO. The EU/NATO has an character of expansion and they should be careful not to get megalomaniac, I remember the discussions about the EU expansion with Turkey. Yeah sure, EU boarders with Iraq, Iran and Syria and it was the german EU-Comissar for Enlargement who did force it, Guenter Verheugen.

Edited August 25, 2014 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

You have to explain it better, did you read the articles ? How do you argue that it was not about the EU, which was all over in the media and you will find endless reports about it in the news. You are saying that it was not about directly beeing a member of the EU, this is right but at the end thats the aim and it isnt only about the expansion of the EU, NATO plays a role aswell. Of course Russia is worried about it and felt like someone did step on their toes, especially about the strategically importance of the crimea which they will never give up. Just some days ago there was a 5 years plan to join EU and NATO.

I never said it wasn't about EU, it wasn't about JOINING the European Union (and how bad it is for Serbia, according to some). The Association agreement with the EU was mainly about implementing various democratic reforms (judiciary, political, etc) and a free trade agreement : http://www.euractiv.com/sections/europes-east/what-association-agreement-means-ukraines-reform-agenda-301099

So, Ukraine may (or may not) join the EU one day (there certainly will be a EU agenda with Ukraine), but certainly not in the close future. Euromaidan movement was above all looking after the democratic European model (and economic cooperation). Of course it pissed Russia off, which is everything but a democratic model.

About NATO, that's another story. But the way Russia is treating Ukraine ATM will obviously motivate Ukrainian authorities to join NATO.

Edited August 25, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[beastcat 14]

You have to explain it better, did you read the articles ? How do you argue that it was not about the EU, which was all over in the media and you will find endless reports about it in the news. You are saying that it was not about directly beeing a member of the EU, this is right but at the end thats the aim and it isnt only about the expansion of the EU, NATO plays a role aswell. Of course Russia is worried about it and felt like someone did step on their toes, especially about the strategically importance of the crimea which they will never give up. Just some days ago there was a 5 years plan to join EU and NATO. The EU/NATO has an character of expansion and they should be careful not to get megalomaniac, I remember the discussions about the EU expansion with Turkey. Yeah sure, EU boarders with Iraq, Iran and Syria.

The whole EU thing was just the drop that made it overflow. But it wasn't about joining the EU anyway, it was about the EU-association agreement that allowed for trade with smaller taxes, just like with many other countries, that Yanukovich refused to sign, not EU membership. And even that was more symbolic than anything.

Oh and Turkey is trying to get into the EU for ages, but since it doesn't fullfill the conditios they can't, not the other way around, but this has all been discussed a few pages back. The EU is not some kind of evil organization that is trying to expand and destroy poor Russia or whatever, its more of a trade club, with certain conditions so not every hobo can join.

[oxmox 73]

The whole EU thing was just the drop that made it overflow. But it wasn't about joining the EU anyway, it was about the EU-association agreement that allowed for trade with smaller taxes, just like with many other countries, that Yanukovich refused to sign, not EU membership. And even that was more symbolic than anything.

Oh and Turkey is trying to get into the EU for ages, but since it doesn't fullfill the conditios they can't, not the other way around, but this has all been discussed a few pages back. The EU is not some kind of evil organization that is trying to expand and destroy poor Russia or whatever, its more of a trade club, with certain conditions so not every hobo can join.

The expansion of the EU and NATO is noticeable and the 5 years plan to join the EU and NATO isnt a surprise. Like I did add in the previous post, the EU has to be careful not to grow over themselves. It is understandable that russia feels like someone did step on their toes, even if you dont agree with their current actions in the Ukraine. NATO at the boarders of Russia, gratulations.

Edited August 25, 2014 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

About EU enlargement agenda : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_enlargement_of_the_European_Union

[beastcat 14]

The expansion of the EU and NATO is noticeable and the 5 years plan to join the EU and NATO isnt a surprise. Like I did add in the previous post, the EU has to be careful not to grow over themselves. It is understandable that russia feels like someone did step on their toes, even if you dont agree with their current actions in the Ukraine.

You are speaking as if the EU is some kind of evil mastermind organisation which has the goal to opress russia and take over its borders or something, where this is simply not the case.

Like I did add in the previous post, the EU has to be careful not to grow over themselves.

The EU is moving nowhere, its other countries that are joining the EU, because they find it attractive. As far as the EU goes it strictly regulates who can come in and who can't and they will certainly make sure they won't get a second Greece. The EU is primarily a trade union with strict regulations. And the same partially applies to the NATO, with the difference being the focus, but when countries want to join it so they are safe from Russia, Russia can only blame itself.

Edited August 25, 2014 by beastcat
removed the "Agains"

[oxmox 73]

You are speaking as if the EU is some kind of evil mastermind organisation which has the goal to opress russia and take over its borders or something, where this is simply not the case.

The EU is moving nowhere, its other countries that are joining the EU, because they find it attractive. As far as the EU goes it strictly regulates who can come in and who can't and they will certainly make sure they won't get a second Greece. The EU is primarily a trade union with strict regulations. And the same partially applies to the NATO, with the difference being the focus, but when countries want to join it so they are safe from Russia, Russia can only blame itself.

We are talking about critics of the EU and you can call it how you want, but I dont call it some kind of evil mastermind organisation. Maybe you missed it but the EU/NATO expansion was already before the Ukrainian crisis a big controversal with russia. This goes back to Gorbatschov after the fall of the Sovjetunion and the promises about the NATO widening. The EU is by the way automatically moving when somone is joining since the association of the states grows and therefore the EU boarder.

[beastcat 14]

We are talking about critics of the EU and you can call it how you want, but I dont call it some kind of evil mastermind organisation. Maybe you missed it but the EU/NATO expansion was already before the Ukrainian crisis a big controversal with russia. This goes back to Gorbatschov after the fall of the Sovjetunion and the promises about the NATO widening. The EU is by the way automatically moving when somone is joining since the association of the states grows and therefore the EU boarder.

Exept that there never was a promise and its not the NATO that is expanding, but countries that are joining. Again, the only one Russia can blame for countries running to NATO is Russia itself and why is it such a big problem for russia anyway? If they never wanted to invade anyone anyway in the first place, why are they so mad when they loose the ability to invade? I mean Russia would never invade a sovereign country, right? (The last part was a joke by the way, of course Russia is invading sovereign countries)

Russia is always pretending that the countries around them still belong to them, as if its still the soviet union, but I don't know if you noticed, but that fell apart some time ago.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Sometimes you speak as if you don't know nothing about this world. I just posted a whole page on how Serbians don't wan't EU, but they are forcibly being guided towards it. Small countries are not free to do anything on their own.

The EU's mistake is that it thought it can treat Russia as if it was a small country like Serbia.

[ProfTournesol 956]

The EU's mistake is that it thought it can treat Russia as if it was a small country like Serbia.

And how is EU treating Russia ?

BTW the Serbs in know (living in France) are in favor of EU integration of Serbia.