Ukraine General

[negah 26]

Oops I havent seen all the new posts and updated my post on the last page with new info.

This might interest you beastcat, especially as what I posted was not meant to justify actions of others because "USA did it", but because you were pointing out that there are "civilized" countries that "dont do such things" which I disaggree of.

A bit more on being civilized.

Who defines that some countries are civilized and some are not.

For example some centuries ago we europeans were thinking (just as today) that we are the centre of civilization while other are not. Therefore it was our holy right to enslave people from less civilized countries and do with them whatever we desired.

You could say, well that was centuries ago and times have changed.

But in the recent history we germans, another civilized european people, have thought that we were the master race and others, especially "subhuman" slavs (that means you too beastcat) should be either exterminated or enslaved.

Then we got our arses kicked and still must pay for it. But other countries were eager to take our place: USA and USSR, toppling governments across the world and bombing innocents.

Speaking of USA, how long is that the segregation was abolished. How far ago is it that the civilized european countries have lost its colonies? Did you know that Nelson Mandela who fought against apartheid in South Africa was on the terrorist lists in the USA until his death? Because he was in fact a terrorist, but he has won in the end, and victors write history.

And look what is happening today, Israeli government make similar politics towards palestinians as we did with "subhumans" back in third reich. And all of it was approved by the governments of that countries.

So where are the so called civilized people. Nothing changes really, just the means of how we can kill each other and how the governments can brainwash us.

EDIT: besides you should listen to what our politicians have to say about immigrants from eastern europe.

The thing is, the amount of older people who get into retirement homes is growing while there are less and less germans who want to work there.

So we need immigrants who will take over such "dirty" jobs like cleaning or working in old peoples homes. And our politicians are speaking about it like it is absolutely normal thing, without noticing how gross it sounds.

I know such is reality, but still. It is as if we would repeat the practice of using people from eastern europe as labour forces for jobs no german would do, but this time they do it willingly.

And it is in every "civilized" european state so.

Do you think getting into the EU will make the life in Ukraine any better? Ask what Bulgarians think of it or just read some of vilas' comments.

EU wants to "conquer" your market so that for example german "Lidl" can sell stuff in Ukraine. But that actually means that while "Lidl" gets reacher, whatever production is left Ukraine will cease its existence because it wont be able to compete with european production. People will lose jobs, and there will be more unemployement, educated people will leave the country, you get the picture.

Is this the future you want for your country?

Let's take a look at the 80's in the US. People were so terrified of commies back than and it was all state orchestrated. If a US soldier was to capture USSR soldiers he would definitely mistreat them in some way.

So you can't say that democracy makes it better.

And now we buy stuff "made in china", how can we dare to do that, it was made by damn commies.

With the fall of the soviet union a new enemy was needed. So terrorists have become the new big threat, but they were kinda not that of a big threat either. Gladly we have the evil russki bears wanting to march across europe and rape our women again. The heavy industry is already counting money it will make on weapons deals with our armies as Rassmussen calls for the increase of military budgets in NATO.

Edited August 24, 2014 by negah

[aleksadragutin 9]

Oops I havent seen all the new posts and updated my post on the last page with new info.

This might interest you beastcat, especially as what I posted was not meant to justify actions of others because "USA did it", but because you were pointing out that there are "civilized" countries that "dont do such things" which I disaggree of.

Another thing is that "civilized" status is awarded by joining EU and thus supporting their policy. I mentioned earlier that no EU country is truly sovereign. When you join you have freedom of choice to choose which pants to wear, but you can't control your market, your economy, make your own laws, pick friends and enemies, have your own foreign policy. So to say that you are civilized because you let others enslave you is absurd.

Sadly, my country goes head first rushing into joining EU without really consulting anyone.

Edited August 24, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[beastcat 14]

Do you think getting into the EU will make the life in Ukraine any better? Ask what Bulgarians think of it or just read some of vilas' comments.

EU wants to "conquer" your market so that for example german "Lidl" can sell stuff in Ukraine. But that actually means that while "Lidl" gets reacher, whatever production is left Ukraine will cease its existence because it wont be able to compete with european production. People will lose jobs, and there will be more unemployement, educated people will leave the country, you get the picture.

Is this the future you want for your country?

There seems to be some weird missconception that Ukraine just wants to join the EU so everything will suddenly be perfect, where this is not the case and it certainly wasn't the point of the Maidan. First of all, Ukraine will never become a EU member in its current state, that should be obvious, however with it trying to become one, it has to fullfill certain requirements. The current Ukrainian government has presented a 5 year plan to get Ukraine "EU ready", that is however veeeery optimistic. Anyway, lets say Ukraine becomes "EU ready". Even without it being a member of the EU the quality of life has improved significantly already, because the people want change and the government can't afford a second Maidan.

As of right now it has already become a EU partner state, for the EU it means certain products become cheaper (Which can become harmful for certain industries in the EU, but it also means they will play out their advantages as in higher quality). The consumer in the EU gets cheaper food for example and more money flows into Ukraine, helping development. Anyway, the point is, that "joining the EU" is just one of many things that Ukraine wants and its too far away for right now anyway. The biggest problem right now is corruption and many steps have already been taken against it, as it was also the main point of the Maidan. So yeah, I know the EU always feels important, but Ukraine's focus is not the EU membership right now. Partnership, yes. Trade, yes. Membership, it would be nice, but not right now.

Basically, Ukrainians don't want to get into the EU, they want to get the EU to them. Oh and the uneployment thing and vilas, we discussed it a few pages back. Polands unemployement rate dropped by half, the unemployement in Germany dropped as well, so there are really much bigger problems to worry about and people are leaving the country enough already, so its better to give them a reason to stay.

[aleksadragutin 9]

There seems to be some weird missconception that Ukraine just wants to join the EU so everything will suddenly be perfect, where this is not the case and it certainly wasn't the point of the Maidan. First of all, Ukraine will never become a EU member in its current state, that should be obvious, however with it trying to become one, it has to fullfill certain requirements. The current Ukrainian government has presented a 5 year plan to get Ukraine "EU ready", that is however veeeery optimistic. Anyway, lets say Ukraine becomes "EU ready". Even without it being a member of the EU the quality of life has improved significantly already, because the people want change and the government can't afford a second Maidan.

As of right now it has already become a EU partner state, for the EU it means certain products become cheaper (Which can become harmful for certain industries in the EU, but it also means they will play out their advantages as in higher quality). The consumer in the EU gets cheaper food for example and more money flows into Ukraine, helping development. Anyway, the point is, that "joining the EU" is just one of many things that Ukraine wants and its too far away for right now anyway. The biggest problem right now is corruption and many steps have already been taken against it, as it was also the main point of the Maidan. So yeah, I know the EU always feels important, but Ukraine's focus is not the EU membership right now. Partnership, yes. Trade, yes. Membership, it would be nice, but not right now.

Basically, Ukrainians don't want to get into the EU, they want to get the EU to them. Oh and the uneployment thing and vilas, we discussed it a few pages back. Polands unemployement rate dropped by half, the unemployement in Germany dropped as well, so there are really much bigger problems to worry about and people are leaving the country enough already, so its better to give them a reason to stay.

You say that but do you have any idea how membership would improve the life quality? The thing about getting a country EU ready is adopting their law system. What does a country gain by doing this? When you join you get quotes, meaning that the surplus of products that you make, and that is threatening to be to much of a competition for Europe, gets destroyed. And that is just one of many steps you take to ensure their dominance. What do you gain from that?

[beastcat 14]

You say that but do you have any idea how membership would improve the life quality? The thing about getting a country EU ready is adopting their law system. What does a country gain by doing this? When you join you get quotes, meaning that the surplus of products that you make, and that is threatening to be to much of a competition for Europe, gets destroyed. And that is just one of many steps you take to ensure their dominance. What do you gain from that?

You can take a look at the actual membership conditions here: http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm

And this of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria

[aleksadragutin 9]

You can take a look at the actual membership conditions here: http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm

And this of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria

That is arguable. They can also add conditions on top of that. And when a country is stupid enough to cater to their every whim...

[mistyronin 1181]

That is arguable. They can also add conditions on top of that. And when a country is stupid enough to cater to their every whim...

What? The EU is just a club for countries to get certain things better.

What makes a country sovereign is that the people support the Gov.

[batto 17]

I don't mean to justify the POW parade (in fact i find it shocking as well) but note that detainees of US in Guantanamo bay are not considered prisoners of war and sometimes they're even legally tortured.

[aleksadragutin 9]

What? The EU is just a club for countries to get certain things better.

What makes a country sovereign is that the people support the Gov.

That's not the definition, that's your opinion. But the fact is even a candidate is not completely sovereign. Example: EU tells Serbia "don't raise export to Russia", and the government says "yes, we're sorry for even thinking about it", when our interests are to use the opurtunity.

And then when we complete one condition, they make up a new one. First it was deporting "war criminals", then "normalization of Srb-Kosovo relations". And the promised billion euros for flooding aid, guess again it was 10 million, and a loan no less. In the end we'll be paying them.

Goes to show that a land of milk and honey doesn't exist.

Ps. Russia gave us 30 mill. of no return aid + equipment and manpower for the mentioned flooding, And what do we do? We listen to EU and deny Russia more products when they need them.

Edited August 24, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[maturin 12]

The dirty little secret is that no country Serbia's size is completely sovereign.

But if you have to have a powerful, wealthy neighbor lording it over you, the EU is by far the best possible choice.

Except for, you know, spite.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Not lording. It's more like exploiting.

[Pyronick 21]

That's not the definition, that's your opinion. But the fact is even a candidate is not completely sovereign. Example: EU tells Serbia "don't raise export to Russia", and the government says "yes, we're sorry for even thinking about it", when our interests are to use the opurtunity.

And then when we complete one condition, they make up a new one. First it was deporting "war criminals", then "normalization of Srb-Kosovo relations". And the promised billion euros for flooding aid, guess again it was 10 million, and a loan no less. In the end we'll be paying them.

Goes to show that a land of milk and honey doesn't exist.

Ps. Russia gave us 30 mill. of no return aid + equipment and manpower for the mentioned flooding, And what do we do? We listen to EU and deny Russia more products when they need them.

Yes, but that is the unfortunate reality of a trade block. If you want to be part of a trade bloc, more specifically one that has an internal market, you have to make sure that you comply to those trade rules. About Kosovo, I agree with you, that is the downside of the geopolitical game. However, the normalization of relations is an integral part of building a trade bloc that lasts. Brussels has learned this the hard way when Cyprus joined, which makes it hard to normalize relations between Greece and Turkey.

If anything, the EU will need Serbia to normalize relations with the Russians before it starts to become another Cold War.

[mistyronin 1181]

That's not the definition, that's your opinion. But the fact is even a candidate is not completely sovereign. Example: EU tells Serbia "don't raise export to Russia", and the government says "yes, we're sorry for even thinking about it", when our interests are to use the opurtunity.

What???

As I told you the EU is a club. And as all clubs it has a requirements to join and to stay.

You meet them? Great.

You don't meet them. Then you can't join or keep inside.

And as all clubs no one is obligated to stay inside. For instance UK is thinking to quit it's membership. And it's fine.

If you are in a vegan club, what you can't do is go to eat in a McDonald's... Or you are gonna be expelled of the club.

If Serbia wants to join the EU must meet the requirements and act as it's decided. If not, as it's logical won't be able to join. No one forces Serbia to join.

It's sovereign because each country's citizens decided to join ( voting ).

Edited August 25, 2014 by MistyRonin

[maturin 12]

Not lording. It's more like exploiting.

You really think the EU is making tons of money off postage stamp Serbia?

More like German money is going to pour into the country in an attempt to build the economy up to code.

[beastcat 14]

Axmann would be proud.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yes, but that is the unfortunate reality of a trade block. If you want to be part of a trade bloc, more specifically one that has an internal market, you have to make sure that you comply to those trade rules. About Kosovo, I agree with you, that is the downside of the geopolitical game. However, the normalization of relations is an integral part of building a trade bloc that lasts. Brussels has learned this the hard way when Cyprus joined, which makes it hard to normalize relations between Greece and Turkey.

If anything, the EU will need Serbia to normalize relations with the Russians before it starts to become another Cold War.

Normalization of relations with a neighbour would be fine, but they actualy took away Kosovo from us and then asked us to be cool about it.

Does this seem like spiting into our faces to anyone else?

---------- Post added at 05:49 ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 ----------

You really think the EU is making tons of money off postage stamp Serbia?

More like German money is going to pour into the country in an attempt to build the economy up to code.

They don't pour money they expand their market. No one pours money for no reason. It's a tactic where they destroyed our industry 20 years ago, and now we're paying them to rebuild it.

---------- Post added at 05:52 ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 ----------

What???

As I told you the EU is a club. And as all clubs it has a requirements to join and to stay.

You meet them? Great.

You don't meet them. Then you can't join or keep inside.

And as all clubs no one is obligated to stay inside. For instance UK is thinking to quit it's membership. And it's fine.

If you are in a vegan club, what you can't do is go to eat in a McDonald's... Or you are gonna be expelled of the club.

If Serbia wants to join the EU must meet the requirements and act as it's decided. If not, as it's logical won't be able to join. No one forces Serbia to join.

It's sovereign because each country's citizens decided to join ( voting ).

That's fine, but you can't just add conditions on the fly.

And no one voted on anything, we weren't asked if we wanted to join.

[mistyronin 1181]

That's fine, but you can't just add conditions on the fly.

The agreements are made on the fly, as in any club. But people can keep the membership or not. For example in a club I was they changed the monthly payment from 10€ to 50€. So I had to decide if it was worth for me.

And no one voted on anything, we weren't asked if we wanted to join.

That's weird.

So who decided to apply for the candidacy? ( the government voted by the people? )

You talk like if Serbia was forced to join, which is non sense. Countries apply on their own will or because it's best for their interests.

If the conditions are not longer good for Serbia, they can just cancel the candidacy or the membership.

Edited August 25, 2014 by MistyRonin

[ballistic09 241]

In case you're unaware, that's a T-72B obr.1989g... Something Ukraine doesn't have.

And if that still wasn't enough for some of you (I even used one of your favorite sources :rolleyes:), here's another one in Makeyevka, just outside Donetsk:

Edited August 25, 2014 by Ballistic09

[ProfTournesol 956]

Did i miss something or is this topic really about Serbia joining EU ?

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Russia 'to send new aid convoy'

Mr Lavrov said he had sent a note to the Ukrainian foreign ministry on Sunday informing it of the new convoy.

"We want to reach an agreement on all conditions for delivering a second convoy by the same route... in the coming days."

[sudayev 27]

It was here already (but form another link with slightly different photos) but it's worth to underline that this movement has nothing to with spontaneity. They have been preparing for this since many years to finally unleash when crisis in Ukraine have started.

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/08/06/donetsk-separatists-were-preparing-for-war-since-2009/

[aleksadragutin 9]

The agreements are made on the fly, as in any club. But people can keep the membership or not. For example in a club I was they changed the monthly payment from 10€ to 50€. So I had to decide if it was worth for me.

That's weird.

So who decided to apply for the candidacy? ( the government voted by the people? )

You talk like if Serbia was forced to join, which is non sense. Countries apply on their own will or because it's best for their interests.

If the conditions are not longer good for Serbia, they can just cancel the candidacy or the membership.

Here's the deal. The elections were held and people chose the government that was in opposition. The party that was in government till then had started the Euro integration process. The people chose the opposition but the EU journey still continued. In Serbia there is 20+ political partys and every coalition ever formed since 2004 has rushed into EU without officially asking anyone.

About the club part. We are like the uncool kids and the EU (the cool guys) change the rules that apply to us every now and then so it would keep the illusion that we're getting somewhere when in fact they are just messing with us.

If there are rules, fine. But they keep telling us do this and you're in, and when we do it (no matter how embarrassing or away from our interests) they say "ok, that's good, just one more thing", and there will always b just one more thing.

Here are the polls http://www.tvojstav.com/results/0MWmJSlrC84cpmAQIqjH/referendum-o-eu-u-srbiji

Sorry it's in pretty bad Serbian writing.

---------- Post added at 09:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 ----------

Did i miss something or is this topic really about Serbia joining EU ?

I used Serbia just as an example, because it is something I know the best.

Edited August 25, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[ProfTournesol 956]

An example of what ? Of how you feel humiliated after what happened in the 90's, as much as Russia feels humiliated after the fall of the USSR ? Of how bitter you feel because former dominated countries are trying to get their freedom ?

Anyway, Ukraine is very far from being able to join EU.

[aleksadragutin 9]

An example of what ? Of how you feel humiliated after what happened in the 90's, as much as Russia feels humiliated after the fall of the USSR ? Of how bitter you feel because former dominated countries are trying to get their freedom ?

Anyway, Ukraine is very far from being able to join EU.

Example of pros and cons of joining EU. Please follow previous posts before posting.

If anyone tells you that they were dominated in Yugoslavia, they lie. The bitterness comes from being screwed over and over again.

Edited August 25, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[ProfTournesol 956]

Example of pros and cons of joining EU. Please follow previous posts before posting.

I followed the previous posts, so that's why this is offtopic : Ukraine isn't about to join EU. You may want to create a topic about Serbia and former Yugoslavia if you wish, but this is irrelevant here.