Ukraine General

[vilas 477]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Die_for_Danzig%3F

pre WW2, vs Cameron on Ukraine vs Budapest Treaty on liquidation of nuclear weapons in Ukraine

[mistyronin 1181]

That's a little harsh. We declared war to Germany when Germany invaded Poland, but fail to attack them while they were occupied in Poland, because of a lame defensive strategy. I'd say we didn't do anything when Germany invaded Czeckoslovakia.

I didn't say that UK & France didn't do anything. I said they didn't do much. If I'm wrong please recall me which operation the UK or France did to prevent the German and the Russian invasion of Poland.

How many French or UK troops were send to Poland to fight the Germans and Russians?

According to the treaty, France and UK should have declared war to Russia too.

[aleksadragutin 9]

I didn't say that UK & France didn't do anything. I said they didn't do much. If I'm wrong please recall me which operation the UK or France did to prevent the German and the Russian invasion of Poland.

How many French or UK troops were send to Poland to fight the Germans and Russians?

According to the treaty, France and UK should have declared war to Russia too.

Maybe, but that would have been suicidal.

[vilas 477]

Maybe, but that would have been suicidal.

apart from keeping primisses as matter of honor and creditability,

Ukraine should never agree to liquidation of a-bombs, like i hope noone bribed politically correct policians bastard in my country, will never sign agreement on landmines and cluster ammo (which Poland uses although many western countries are against it for "human reasons"), my country should never allow Russians to tell if we can have anti rocket shield ,

meanwhile in 2008-2014, Rheinmetal and French companies - armed Russia in hightech

it was UK, USA which DISARMED Ukraine in 90s, now UK is first to say they won't fight when Russia gonna attack Ukraine, and EU lefitests blame USA for trying to keep promise (so far USA shows honor cause they guaranteed safety or Ukraine too )

Edited August 8, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

Oh don't kid yourselfs. First-the ruler of Yugoslavia was Croatian, second-no crimes were commited with a higher directive (unlike operation Oluja), and third-you started the war with a rebellion.

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 ----------

What about the Missile Shield.

We didn't simply start a rebellion, we declared independence after almost 40 years of cultural oppression by the pro serbian Yugoslav Government. Tito may have been Croatian or not (there are many people who doubt it, including his own mother) but his whole government was very pro Serbian and it became much much worse after his death.

Please enlighten me how Operation Oluja was a warcrime and how the mass murders commited by the serbs were not authorized by their government.

[beastcat 14]

apart from keeping primisses as matter of honor and creditability,

Ukraine should never agree to liquidation of a-bombs, like i hope noone bribed politically correct policians bastard in my country, will never sign agreement on landmines and cluster ammo (which Poland uses although many western countries are against it for "human reasons"), my country should never allow Russians to tell if we can have anti rocket shield ,

meanwhile in 2008-2014, Rheinmetal and French companies - armed Russia in hightech

it was UK, USA which DISARMED Ukraine in 90s, now UK is first to say they won't fight when Russia gonna attack Ukraine, and EU lefitests blame USA for trying to keep promise (so far USA shows honor cause they guaranteed safety or Ukraine too )

Mines are a horrible thing. Ukraine is full of mines after the second world war and now the separatists have set up even more mines. While they slow down the army they will remain for decades and pose a big danger for civilians. I know of two cases where children have blown themselves up with mines in Charkiv myself. A group of kids have found a mine in the forest and then tried to blow it up on a graveyard, killing one and making another one disabled. The other case was kids that took a mine (Again from WW2) to school after finding it and then stored it in their desk. It went off during class. There are already multiple reports of kids dying due to the separatist mines.

[vilas 477]

if we have "allies" like Rheinmetal GmbH and Mistral builders, and if we cannot have a-bombs ? independent nations must have way to secure themselves against other culture/nation/imperialism/invasion/etc.

so far EU lefties did a lot of problems to EU citizens by their nativity , listening to leftists , will end you disarmed and as result, other country/culture/nation etc. will harm you much more or conquer you,

leftist thinking nativity has it's illogical hole in fact that it believes that all people are similar, and have no bad intentions against us , but world is not made of loving-each-other people, in the world we have predators that want to eat us as well,

imperialism in big country is always dangerous to small neighbors

[beastcat 14]

if we have "allies" like Rheinmetal GmbH and Mistral builders, and if we cannot have a-bombs ? independent nations must have way to secure themselves against other culture/nation/imperialism/invasion/etc.

so far EU lefties did a lot of problems to EU citizens by their nativity , listening to leftists , will end you disarmed and as result, other country/culture/nation etc. will harm you much more or conquer you,

leftist thinking nativity has it's illogical hole in fact that it believes that all people are similar, and have no bad intentions against us , but world is not made of loving-each-other people, in the world we have predators that want to eat us as well,

imperialism in big country is always dangerous to small neighbors

I fully agree on behalf of nuclear weaponary. If Ukraine still had it, all of this wouldn't have happened, but mines pose danger to civilians decades after a war.

[fabrizio_t 58]

That's a little harsh. We declared war to Germany when Germany invaded Poland, but fail to attack them while they were occupied in Poland, because of a lame defensive strategy. I'd say we didn't do anything when Germany invaded Czeckoslovakia.

Indeed it's harsh.

Speaking of France, did you consider that Mussolini's Italy declared itself "not-belligerant" at the time, while being formally aligned to Germany?

Italy was a neighbour of France. So you have to consider that France was potentially challenged on 2 different fronts.

An offensive against Germany could force Italy to join the war on Axis side (it did happen, less than year later).

Also France was overly relying on Maginot line, which proved to be vulnerable only later, to blitzkrieg.

Fact is its defences were built on the experience from WWI, while WWII was a different war.

Edited August 8, 2014 by fabrizio_T

[vilas 477]

few things interests me:

- west supported Maidan, all resulted after Maidan, why those who supported Maidan are now first to move back ?

- Ukraina has rich oligarchs, corrupted , mafia businesmen - what they do to support their country, they have bilions, Ukrainian army has no helmets etc. Oligarch fought Yanuk, cause they wanted to EU, what they do now ?

[fabrizio_t 58]

Independence Square In Flames As Maidan Activists Clash With Ukrainian Forces

[beastcat 14]

A car with 130kg of explosives has been stopped in Donetsk Oblast

The son of Avakov is now fighting in the Kiev-1 Batallion

Avakov is the minister of internal affairs.

A crater somewhere

http://youtu.be/HoEFSLqFCiY

Guy talks how he has been injured by a mortar shell from the separatists, how they hide behind civilians and shoot grads from schools and residential buildings.

And his dog is already trained to hide in the bathroom when it hears explosions.

Edited August 8, 2014 by beastcat

[maturin 12]

Holy shit, how is that house still standing? Must have been a huge mine.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Independence Square In Flames As Maidan Activists Clash With Ukrainian Forces

Can't manage to get that link work for me :(

[jakerod 254]

Can't manage to get that link work for me :(

Independence Square In Flames As Maidan Activists Clash With Ukranian Forces

There you go. His had an extra http:// at the beginning

[beastcat 14]

I have heard most of the guys who are left on Maidan are just hobos and small criminals. The real maidan activists are either at home or in the east, the people who are on the Maidan now don't have any goals, ideas or demands. The whole reason for the trouble now is that they don't want to leave.

Saakashvili has visited Ukraine in the city of Lvov (Lviv, Lemberg, call it how you want) for the anniversary of Russias invasion of Georgia. He voiced support for Ukraine and happiness, because Russia is failing to do what it succeded with in Georgia.

Also, epic SU-24 flyby:

Edited August 8, 2014 by beastcat

[beastcat 14]

StopFake - Fake: hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers deserted to Russia and asked for asylum there

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) West warns Russia against 'aid' mission in Ukraine

The UK Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond, said: "I strongly urge Russia to avoid any provocative actions".

His office cited reports that Russian military vehicles had entered Ukraine.

( France 24 ) NATO warns of invasion by Russian 'peacekeepers'

NATO’s statement said it was concerned Moscow could use “the pretext of a humanitarian or peacekeeping mission as an excuse to send troops into Eastern Ukraineâ€. The warning comes after the alleged sighting of several Russian military vehicles bearing the Cyrillic insignia for "peacekeeping" near its border with Ukraine.

You could say that all that is NATO paranoia, but...

( RIA Novosti ) US Against Russian Peacekeepers in Ukraine - White House

Obviously a month ago:

( Voice of Russia ) Russia not considering peacekeeping operation in Ukraine - Foreign Ministry

Edited August 9, 2014 by MistyRonin

[cozza 24]

20,000 dosn't seem like allot for an invasion.

[beastcat 14]

20,000 dosn't seem like allot for an invasion.

Ukraine has about 20.000 active soldiers at the moment. Russia has at least 20.000 people on the eastern border and ~40.000 - ~60.000 in Crimea.

Edited August 9, 2014 by beastcat

[mistyronin 1181]

20,000 dosn't seem like allot for an invasion.

20,000 straight on the Eastern border, plus all the ones that you can move to the area with helicopters, planes, trains, etc. In few days they could have up to 100,000 if they wanted. Obviously we will see what will happen, but the capabilities are there.

Not to count the ones in Crimea.

---------- Post added at 10:46 ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 ----------

( The Guardian ) Russian resigns to make way for Ukrainian as new head of 'Donetsk People's Republic'

The Russian prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic has announced his resignation in a move aimed at dampening claims that the rebellion in eastern Ukraine is being masterminded by Moscow.

Borodai, a Russian national, steps down amid growing tensions from within the separatists’ ranks and as Ukrainian government forces move to encircle the city of Donetsk.

He will be replaced by Alexander Zakharchenko, a Ukrainian citizen from Donetsk Oblast and member of the militant group Oplot, who has been a major player in the insurgency against Kiev’s government forces since its military offensive began in April.

Wearing a black t-shirt with his trademark blue blazer, Borodai told journalists inside the rebel headquarters in Donetsk yesterday that he came to eastern Ukraine “as a crisis manager,†and claimed that under his leadership “the Donetsk People’s Republic became a state.â€

Flanked by Zakharchenko, Borodai said, “I am a Muscovite. Donbass should be led by a genuine Donetsk native.â€

---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 ----------

[ProfTournesol 956]

BBC footage of civilian women being fed up with Pro Russians hiding among them : http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27541005

[beastcat 14]

http://youtu.be/rUzzOiMMAAg

[surpher 1]

(Associated Press) Donetsk rebels surrounded, commander says

Strelkov said the town of Krasnyi Luch, which lies on one of the two main roads between Donetsk and the rebel-held east's other main city of Luhansk, "has been taken by the enemy."

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: Kiev dismantles last protest barriers

After talks on Saturday morning, Mr Klitschko was quoted as saying by Interfax news agency: "We need to open Kreschatik St in the first place. In the second, to restore order so that there are no explosions, no shots and no burning tyres on the city's main street. We understand that we can do that only together."

"There should be no tents or barricades on Kreschatik St," he added. "If necessary, the tents can go alongside."

- - -

( Yle, in English ) Analyst: "Finns right to be concerned about Russia"

FIIA Global Security Research Programme Director Mika Aaltola said that Russia has recently moved in a direction which has heightened tensions between the European Union and states in the vicinity of Russia.

“We’ve seen this development since the mid-2000s. Perhaps in Finland we’ve recognised it too late,†Aaltola said.

An Yle poll released Friday showed that some 56 percent of Finns perceived Russia as a threat – significantly more than a previous survey by the tabloid daily Iltalehti in March, when the corresponding proportion was 39 percent.

Edited August 9, 2014 by MistyRonin