Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

It seems that pro-Russians doesn't allow any journalist close to the crash zone... If it was done by Ukraine they would be asking all the world to watch it, not hide it.

But how did lenta.ru and lifenews got the photos and videos?

[mistyronin 1181]

But how did lenta.ru and lifenews got the photos and videos?

I guess that they meant non-Russian journalists. It doesn't escape to anyone that Russian media worked with the Pro-Russians on orders from the Kremlin.

[spooky lynx 73]

Unfortunately foreign journalists tend to leave battle zone before any serious battle. It's true sign even since first chechen war noted by our troops - if foreign journalists pack their stuff then a serious attack will start soon. The same appeared in Donbass. Most of foreign press workers left the area right before UA offensive.

---------- Post added at 23:05 ---------- Previous post was at 22:55 ----------

Spooky linked tweets of a Spanish Civilian air controller now working in Ukraine.

His words are quite interesting ( the controller ones ).

He says that the plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighters when someone ( the controller points Russian Army ), tried to shoot down the fighters and blow up the civilian.

I found some other words:

"In radar this all collected, for unbelievers, brought down by kiev, here we know and military air traffic control also" (google translated)

Now I think about other reason: this guy says about two fighter escorted the Boeing. Witness on the ground spotted one fighter and two men with parachutes. So it could be collision of two planes - Ukrainian fighter and Boeing. Knowing bad shape of most Ukrainian pilots this could be real.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[astral4eg 10]

Come on, they aren't that stupid.

Why separatists shoot down a plane? What is their logic?

But for Ukraine good reason to ask military aid from the U.S., it's obvious

[mistyronin 1181]

I found some other words:

"In radar this all collected, for unbelievers, brought down by kiev, here we know and military air traffic control also" (google translated)

I'm starting to doubt that guys veracity, he published:

Hace dias lo dije aquí, militares de kiev querían alzarse contra el actual presidente, esto puede ser una forma, a las órdenes de timoshenko

I said it here a few days ago, Kiev military wanted to rise against the actual president, this could be one try, under the orders of Timoshenko.

So according to that guy it's all a Timoshenko's conspiracy to throw Poroshenko.

And this one is quoted as one of the RT experts on air control.

[jakerod 254]

Why separatists shoot down a plane? What is their logic?

But for Ukraine good reason to ask military aid from the U.S., it's obvious

Because they're not properly trained on how to identify aircraft.

Don't get me wrong, it could be the Ukrainians wanting others to step in but I feel like the insurgents doing something stupid is more likely.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Jakerod

[mr_centipede 31]

Why separatists shoot down a plane? What is their logic?

A mistake... a tragic one at that

[spooky lynx 73]

I'm starting to doubt that guys veracity

Oh is he Kremlin agent too?:confused:

[surpher 1]

Location 48.012789,38.762897

[mistyronin 1181]

Oh is he Kremlin agent too?:confused:

No, he is nuts. Im fact in older posts said that the Ukrainian Air Force and the Russian one were collaborating and allowing Russian military planes to fly in Ukraine, etc

Read his blog: http://plazamoyua.com/2014/03/15/controlando-desde-kiev-ii-subita-movida-aerea-spainbuca/

[astral4eg 10]

Location 48.012789,38.762897

for reference: BUK-M1 does not work without radar

and aircraft conducted air traffic controller from Dnepropetrovsk (Ukraine)

Edited July 20, 2014 by astral4eg

[jakerod 254]

for reference: BUK does not work without radar

and aircraft conducted air traffic controller from Dnepropetrovsk (Ukraine)

While early Buk had a day radar tracking system 9Sh38 (similar was used for example on Kub, Tor and Osa missile system), its current design can be fitted with a combined optical tracking system with a thermal camera and a laser range-finder for passive tracking of the target.

Buk missile system - Wikipedia

Doesn't that mean it doesn't need radar? Or is that just for target tracking and not actual missile guidance? Although at the same time you would think they would identify it as a civilian jet but maybe not.

[Tonci87 163]

I guess this was a huge fuckup by the separatists. They saw a blip on their AA Radar and assumed that it has to be a Ukrainan Military plane. Maybe they didn't bother to check for IFF or they only checked if the IFF responds with a Russian code.

Absolutely everything, including the separatists behaviour after the incident points to them as being responsible.

[astral4eg 10]

Buk missile system - Wikipedia

u right

soon find out who is to blame, if soon Ukraine will help military equipment it all becomes clear.

[ProfTournesol 956]

ITAR TASS : Donetsk defence forces take control of army unit equipped with missile defence systems (as of 29th of june) : http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

[USSRsniper 0]

I guess this was a huge fuckup by the separatists. They saw a blip on their AA Radar and assumed that it has to be a Ukrainan Military plane. Maybe they didn't bother to check for IFF or they only checked if the IFF responds with a Russian code.

Absolutely everything, including the separatists behaviour after the incident points to them as being responsible.

Some modifications of SA-11, can be fired without radar, but by using electro-optical navigation, so basically it becomes point and shoot.

I also wouldn't rule out Ukranian military either, they have SA-11 too. And if they messed up they would never admit that easily.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Apart that Ukrainians have no reason to shoot ground to air missiles on such big targets, i'm sure they are able to distinguish Russian fighters with Boeing 777.

[USSRsniper 0]

Apart that Ukrainians have no reason to shoot ground to air missiles on such big targets, i'm sure they are able to distinguish Russian fighters with Boeing 777.

I just don't jump to conclusions simply because you got that unclear story with Siberia Airlines flight in 2001, where it is highly likely that Ukrainian Armed forces shot it down. They might have no reason but you still could do it accidentally.

Other part that is strange to me why do civilian jest flying above active war-zone. They should do that exactly to avoid these kind of incidents.

[astral4eg 10]

Apart that Ukrainians have no reason to shoot ground to air missiles on such big targets, i'm sure they are able to distinguish Russian fighters with Boeing 777.

the same can be said about militias, Russian fighters not fly over the territory of Ukraine.

there are 2 options, Ukrainian provocation or militias error.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Russian fighters not fly over the territory of Ukraine.

Ukrainian armed forces said the contrary today.

---------- Post added at 22:50 ---------- Previous post was at 22:48 ----------

BBC live feed :

The American ABC News network quotes a US official as saying the US believes that a surface-to-air missile brought down the plane. It is unclear who fired the missile or whether it was fired from inside Ukrainian territory or Russian territory, the official said.

[USSRsniper 0]

If it's "militias error", in my book that one more reason why Ukrainian Armed Forces should hunt them down and eliminate them.

[astral4eg 10]

<del>

Edited July 17, 2014 by astral4eg

[ProfTournesol 956]

https://twitter.com/spainbuca allegedly twitter traffic controller

Already discussed a few posts back.

[beastcat 14]

Phone conversation between the separatists, shortly after they shot down the plane.

In the first part they are saying that they shot down the plane about 30 mins ago and are going to the crash site in order to make some photos.

The second part takes place after they realized they shot down a civilian plane. You can hear in their voice that they know they fucked up. Edited July 17, 2014 by beastcat
Edited in order to be more objective

[JdB 151]

I just don't jump to conclusions simply because you got that unclear story with Siberia Airlines flight in 2001, where it is highly likely that Ukrainian Armed forces shot it down. They might have no reason but you still could do it accidentally.

Other part that is strange to me why do civilian jest flying above active war-zone. They should do that exactly to avoid these kind of incidents.

That was during an exercise where the operators would expect to be engaging practice targets whether simulated or physical ones and may have mistaken it for one such target. In this case the plane was travelling out of Ukrainian airspace and the Ukrainians don't have to consider enemy aircraft since the separatists don't have any. Unless a contact was picked up entering Ukrainian airspace from Russia or a country friendly to Russia I doubt the Ukrainian air defence would even bother giving it a second look and if it had entered from such an area it would have been brought down sooner because the closer it would have come down to Kiev the stronger the case would be for the Ukrainian government to point the finger at direct Russian involvement. As the Ukrainian civil air administration was in contact with the plane and didn't have any reason to doubt it's authenticity I doubt they passed it on to the air defence command.

There were reports prior to the plane being shot down of a Buk system captured from the Ukrainian army being on the move in the area on the same day and separatists in the same area claimed to have shot down an enemy aircraft 30 minutes before it hit the headlines. 1 + 1 = ?

Edited July 17, 2014 by JdB