Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

Meanwhile:

( RIA Novosti ) Slaviansk Protesters to Move from Defense to Offense

“It’s no use waiting for them [the Ukrainian security officials] to attack. We are changing tactics,†Stella Khorosheva said.

( RT ) Donetsk self-defense forces give Kiev troops 24 hours to withdraw

"If the armored vehicles are not pulled back, the roadblocks of the so-called legitimate authorities are not removed, I will have enough power and means – the commander supported me today – to destroy and burn everything. Reconnaissance and sabotage groups are ready to move and some are steady,†deputy commander of the pro-autonomy militia of Donbass, Sergey Zdrilyuk, told RIA Novosti.

“I give 24 hours for them to withdraw all troops, all forces,†he added.

( RIA Novosti ) One Dead, Four Hurt in Kramatorsk Shootout in Ukraine

One pro-federalization activist was killed and four others wounded in a gunfight near the Ukrainian city Kramatorsk, in the north of the Donetsk region, a Ukrainian TSN news website reports.

“One was killed, four severely injured. [They] were admitted to the Slaviansk City Hospital No 1,†the website announced Thursday.

Funny that in RIA they still call them "pro-federalization" if they were asking first for the separation from Ukraine and now are looking for the union with Russia.

Edited May 15, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

That makes sense, missile defense systems can give someone a feeling they can nuke their opponent without being nuked back.

And while basically sitting on another continent with large seas surrounding them, they wont be affected by the fallout that much.

So yeah, missile defense systems can be indirectly used to launch a nuclear attack.

EDIT: Meanwhile in the USA:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120917/TSJ01/309170011/Military-Government-Train-Using-Zombie-Crisis-Scenario

http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/05/homeland-security-grants-went-to-zombie-apocalypse-training/

Here is a more recent one:

http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/06/army-zombie-apocalypse/#!NE9Dt

... wait, WHAT?!

Have they invented some new cool sort of throwing money away, or do they know something we dont?

The second part is not relevant to this thread. Also many people believe that the "Zombie Outbreak" training serves to condition soldiers to shoot at unarmed civilians in case of a Pandemic or riots.

And I really don´t get why other rules should apply for Russia than they do for any other country. Russia has a Missile defense system, why shouldn´t anybody else be allowed to have one?

Also nice how the separatists destroy any chance of peace talks....

[surpher 1]

(ukrinform.ua) - Miners in Donbas asking to give them weapons

Pro-Russian advances lead to the fact that today a significant portion of the mines stop, operate at the limit, coal is not exported, there is a risk of non-payment of wages, which can lead to hunger riots, the Trade Union chairman says.

[negah 26]

And I really don´t get why other rules should apply for Russia than they do for any other country. Russia has a Missile defense system, why shouldn´t anybody else be allowed to have one?

AFAIK there are no russian missile defense sites in Cuba, Mexico or Canada.

[Tonci87 163]

AFAIK there are no russian missile defense sites in Cuba, Mexico or Canada.

No, but will the US make a fuss if the Cubans Mexicans and Canadians decide to build some?

[negah 26]

No, but will the US make a fuss if the Cubans Mexicans and Canadians decide to build some?

During the Cuban crisis the US made a fuss because Soviets wanted to station their nuclear missiles on Cuba.

The US had already stationed their nuclear missiles in Turkey though. Right under USSR's belly.

Right now US prohibited the installation of GLONASS stations on US soil because Russians could better target their nuclear milles using GLONASS then.

Well at the same time there are GPS stations on Russian soil and US can just as well use them to better target their missiles. Ok Russia already threatened it will deactivate all GPS stations in Russia of US wont allow the stationing of GLONASS stations in USA, but thats a reaction on US sanctions as it seems.

So yeah USA make a lot of fuss if something threatens their country, so why shouldn't Russia do it too? Oh wait I forgot, only US can do what they want, everyone else has to do what US wants. We see it very well on our own country.

[Tonci87 163]

During the Cuban crisis the US made a fuss because Soviets wanted to station their nuclear missiles on Cuba.

The US had already stationed their nuclear missiles in Turkey though. Right under USSR's belly.

Right now US prohibited the installation of GLONASS stations on US soil because Russians could better target their nuclear milles using GLONASS then.

Well at the same time there are GPS stations on Russian soil and US can just as well use them to better target their missiles. Ok Russia already threatened it will deactivate all GPS stations in Russia of US wont allow the stationing of GLONASS stations in USA, but thats a reaction on US sanctions as it seems.

So yeah USA make a lot of fuss if something threatens their country, so why shouldn't Russia do it too? Oh wait I forgot, only US can do what they want, everyone else has to do what US wants. We see it very well on our own country.

Don´t compare nuclear missiles to denfensive systems.

Also GPS isn´t a threat to russia since all GPS stuff will be immediately fucked if a world war starts, long before any nuclear missiles start to fly.

[negah 26]

Don´t compare nuclear missiles to denfensive systems.

Also GPS isn´t a threat to russia since all GPS stuff will be immediately fucked if a world war starts, long before any nuclear missiles start to fly.

Yet again nuclear defense system can eliminate the concept of the MAD leading to one side believing they could win a nuclear war.

And yeah GPS isnt a threat to Russia while GLONASS is a threat to US, I love that logic.

[Tonci87 163]

You really didn´t get the point?

Why should Russia be allowed to have something, and deny it to it´s neighbours if it is a purely defensive thing? What right does Russia have to do that?

[negah 26]

You really didn´t get the point?

Why should Russia be allowed to have something, and deny it to it´s neighbours if it is a purely defensive thing? What right does Russia have to do that?

The only missile defense system in the whole Russia is placed around Moscow, so I cant see how can Russia deny having NO missile defense systems to its neighbors.

[mistyronin 1181]

So basically the point you are trying to tell us negah, is that Russia wants to keep bullying the world with an atomic full attack threat against Europe.

And if the EU wants to defend themselves, Russia considers that an aggression ( because then Russia can't bomb them ).

So you are basically telling us that the only influence Russia has its from it's military / nuclear threat. Well it's how they have solved things in Chechnya, Georgia and now in Ukraine.

[negah 26]

So basically the point you are trying to tell us negah, is that Russia wants to keep bullying the world with an atomic full attack threat against Europe.

And if the EU wants to defend themselves, Russia considers that an aggression ( because then Russia can't bomb them ).

So you are basically telling us that the only influence Russia has its from it's military / nuclear threat. Well it's how they have solved things in Chechnya, Georgia and now in Ukraine.

To hell with it, as I see people simply dont understand what MAD is and how it prevented WW3 from starting and how the missile defense systems in Europe can lead to a preventive strike from USA without a retaliative strike from Russia, because the missiles flying from Russia to USA will be shot down over Europe. Europe is fucked too, but USA never really cared about us anyway.

By argueing here I achieve nothing but loose time I could invest in something useful.

Bye.

[katipo66 94]

You cannot reason against that level of naivety :)

[mistyronin 1181]

To hell with it, as I see people simply dont understand what MAD is and how it prevented WW3

IMO you are making really weird conspiracy theories. Cold War is over. WW3 will or won't happen independently of the atomic Weapons. Atomic weapons are like gas weapons in the WW1. Anyone who use one again would have all the world against.

Europe is fucked too, but USA never really cared about us anyway.

Europe has always depended on itself. Not on the USA nor in Russia.

IMO the main difference is USA and Russia behavior and values. We have already seen how both of them act with a weak Europe USA with the Marshall Plan and Russia... well... ask for it in the former Soviet countries.

So between the capitalist selfish business ruled country that see Europe as their market and the authoritarian militaristic imperialistic nation that see Europe as their "living space"... I know who I prefer.

[spooky lynx 73]

Don´t compare nuclear missiles to denfensive systems.

Armor vest is believed to be defensive system. But it can help attacking person to save his health and life and increase the chance of successful attack. So does anti-ballistic missile system. The same goes to any active protection systems and jammers installed on vehicles. Any defensive system may be used together with strike ones for better protection of attacking side.

While now current ABM systems are more or less equal and together with nuclear weapons form balance, building additional ones just near our borders changes the balance and gives more chance to others for performing more successful strike. Sure it cannot fully neutralise Russian nuclear strike but can decrease its strength, and it's unacceptable for us. Just like US missiles in Turkey were totally unacceptable for USSR and Soviet missiles in Cuba were totally unacceptable for US.

[mistyronin 1181]

( Garry Kasparov website ) Open Letter to Guy Verhofstadt on Eve of EU Presidential Debate

I write to you out of deep concern over the crisis in Ukraine and what it means for the future of Europe and the world. Tomorrow is the European Union Presidential Debate. You and the other main candidates will discuss many important topics, to be sure, but the greatest crisis the EU has faced in its existence, the ongoing invasion of Ukraine by Putin’s Russia, must be the top priority. Russia’s annexation of Crimea and continued paramilitary assault on a European nation are a threat to the entire European experiment. This crisis requires an unequivocal and principled response that condemns aggression, that insists on territorial integrity, and that defends the European ideals of unity and democracy.

If Ukraine is not safe, Europe is not safe. Putin and other dictators will prove that aggression is rewarded.

[mistyronin 1181]

Interesting that the steelworkers ( undoubtedly working class people ), have been the ones to free at least one city from the pro-Russian aggressive militia ( so called Rep. of Donetsk ).

( The New York Times ) Workers Seize City in Eastern Ukraine From Separatists

Thousands of steelworkers fanned out on Thursday through the city of Mariupol, establishing control over the streets and banishing the pro-Kremlin militants who until recently had seemed to be consolidating their grip on power, dealing a setback to Russia and possibly reversing the momentum in eastern Ukraine.

By late Thursday, miners and steelworkers had deployed in at least five cities, including the regional capital, Donetsk. They had not, however, become the dominant force there that they were in Mariupol, the region’s second-largest city and the site last week of a bloody confrontation between Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian militants.

The workers who took to the streets on Thursday were among the hundreds of thousands in the east who are employed in metals and mining by Ukraine’s richest man, Rinat Akhmetov, who only recently went beyond paying lip service to Ukrainian unity and on Wednesday issued a statement rejecting separatism.

( The Voice of Russia ) Activists start dismantling barricades in Mariupol

Over 200 employees of the Ilyich and Azovstal metallurgical plants in Mariupol, the Donetsk region of Ukraine, have joined members of NGOs and ordinary city dwellers in a campaign titled 'City Without Barricades' to dismantle numerous barricades built by insurgency groups of tires, trees, sacks with sand, pieces of concrete slabs, and furniture, the city web portal 0629 has reported.

Edited May 16, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

Now this is interesting news. While the armed separatists surely are a tiny minority of the whole population we might now actually see what the mayority of them thinks.

[surpher 1]

(Al Jazeera) People & Power - Ukraine: A dangerous game

For months, the Ukrainian crisis has been deepening, with Moscow-backed separatists responding to Russia’s expansionist ambitions and rhetoric, and Ukrainian nationalists looking to the West for support.

But are the underlying divisions as clear as they’re portrayed? What basis is there for assuming that what must follow is civil war and partition - as some seem to fear?

Journalist and filmmaker Michael Andersen has worked extensively in Ukraine. With national elections set for later this month, People & Power sent him to assess the narrative that has taken the country down such a dangerous path.

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) UN sounds alarm on human rights in east

The UN has warned of an "alarming deterioration" in human rights in eastern Ukraine, where separatists are fighting security forces.

It also found "serious problems" of harassment and persecution of ethnic Tatars in Crimea, the mainly ethnic Russian region Moscow annexed in March.

Russia condemned the report, saying it ignored abuses by Ukraine's government.

Meanwhile, a third-party initiative to restore law and order in one troubled city, Mariupol, seems to be succeeding.

UN monitors have also documented cases of targeted killings, torture and abduction, primarily carried out by anti-government forces in eastern Ukraine.

The report highlights threats to journalists and international observers, and abductions or attacks on some.

( UN Ukraine website ) UN report documents “alarming†deterioration in human rights in eastern Ukraine

Listing numerous specific examples of targeted killings, torture and beatings, abductions, intimidation and some cases of sexual harassment – mostly carried out by well-organized and well-armed anti-Government groups in the east – the report also draws attention to missing persons, including 83 still unaccounted for after disappearing during the events related to the original “Maidan†protests in Kiev. In the east, there has been a worrying rise in abductions and unlawful detention of journalists, activists, local politicians, representatives of international organizations and members of the military, the report says. While some have subsequently been released, the bodies of a number of others have been dumped in rivers or other areas, and some remain unaccounted for. The problem has been especially marked in and around the town of Slovyansk, in the Donetsk region, with a group called the ‘Slovyansk self-defence unit’ heavily implicated.

Edited May 16, 2014 by MistyRonin

[mistyronin 1181]

A bit OT, but some of the best RT propaganda, to show that there are militias elsewhere:

( RT ) Operation American Spring: Militias promise to oust Obama, Boehner on Friday

A retired United States Army colonel expects as many as 30 million like-minded individuals will descend on Washington, DC this week and demand that President Barack Obama and other members of his administration be booted from office.

Those are just some of the demands that Col. Harry Riley, founder of “Operation American Spring,†said he’ll ask the Obama administration to adhere to when militia members and patriots of all sorts arrive in the nation’s capital on Friday and begin demonstrating against a government the group considers to be in violation of the principles established by the founders of the country.

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

why dont you see the truth and only believe the west's propaganda and fail to see the truth misty?

i showed you this but you failed to read it so hear is it again-http://www.thewestwire.com/joe-biden-son-ukraine-gas-company/ ,if you dont want to read it,here are the facts,its about biden's son that gone take up a key position in the ukrainian biggest gas company, prob to open the door to the big oil company's to get in and start sucking the oil and gas out off the country. and the ppl of Ukraine wont see a dimme from it,but if they say its to help them its ok i guess,we must obey and believe our dear leaders right?

then,again its RT so it MUST be propaganda,even the US stuff right? and its shows something but you prob wont see it,and go read alternitive media insted of that dribble or the western media crap; shows PPL are getting sick and tired off this corporate goverment that dont give a fly's ass about it citizens and their rights and laws,only big money and big bussines.

then that UN report,only shows what sick joke the UN have become, while they only conserned about the ukrainian army using choppers with UN markings,or even have nothing to say about them attacking a city with heavy arty,they do have a opinion about those "pro-russian separitists" and how their so evil and attacking press and what not, and btw if you would read a bit more on RT you would see their journalist also come under attack by the ukrainian army,but that isnt mention in the "report"

Also OT,they fail to rain in Israel for abusing and opressing palestinians, and this for almost 80 years, but its ok i guess,

and yeah i read your stuff last time,and still you are claiming its propaganda and we are conspiracy nuts, while you keep showing stuff from the biggest propaganda news sites around,

btw wanna see real propaganda?

-https://www.recordedfuture.com/al-qaeda-encryption-technology-part-1/

-http://fox59.com/2014/05/12/armed-for-war-local-police-tote-pentagon-surplus/#axzz31isc0kux

stop believing their crap,open your eyes and use the net(while we can)to read and find stuff that you would not even believe is out there, and yeah use it while we can because something else that OT but importent, in 120days we will know if they will trow the freedom of the net under the bus to make money.

-http://rt.com/usa/159204-fcc-net-neutrality-hearing/ something from your favorite site ;)

but it can be found every where else, suggest you read it !

[mistyronin 1181]

why dont you see the truth and only believe the west's propaganda and fail to see the truth misty?

Today I found a couple of Witness of Jehova that asked me the same question "Why you don't see the truth? Why do you fail to see our truth?". They repeated things like that for almost an hour. :rolleyes:

then that UN report,only shows what sick joke the UN have become [...]

Well the UN represents all the countries in the world including Russia. So you are telling me that all the world is wrong, but Russia has the truth? :rolleyes:

BTW I did read the link about Jon Biden's son before ,and also this one:

( RT ) Son of US VP Joe Biden appointed to board of major Ukrainian gas company

How could that happen! The son of US VP Joe Biden, is joining the board of directors of Burisma Holdings, Ukraine’s largest private gas producer!

Its incredibly worst than invading part of a country with your army! Creating enough chaos in the other half of that country to almost provoke a civil war! Besides that private companies can hire who ever they want ( that's why they are private ).

stop believing their crap,open your eyes and use the net(while we can)to read and find stuff that you would not even believe is out there

Yay! You mean because of things like this, right? :rolleyes:

Putin's Blogger Law Restricts Internet Freedom and Privacy

[batto 17]

Stephen Cohen on Russia-Ukraine Crisis: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/4/17/we_are_not_beginning_a_new

[mistyronin 1181]

( RT ) Loud blasts, heavy gunfire heard in Slavyansk – RT stringer

Loud blasts and repeated heavy gunfire have been heard in the Ukrainian city of Slavyansk, according to freelance journalist Graham Phillips, who is reporting for RT.

Full-scale military operations are happening in Slavyansk and Kramatorsk, located in the north of Donetsk region, a self-proclaimed leader of the Donetsk People's Republic, Miroslav Rudenko, told RIA Novosti. He added that fighting escalated early on Sunday morning as Ukrainian troops tried to dismantle self-defense forces' posts. Information about the number of injures is not available.