Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

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( The Guardian ) Germany to aid Ukraine talks with separatists

The German foreign minister has arrived in Ukraine saying he hopes round-table talks between politicians and civil groups this week will help disarm pro-Russia separatists and improve the atmosphere for elections in the country later this month.

Frank-Walter Steinmeier met the acting prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, at Kiev's airport on Tuesday morning before travelling to the Black Sea city of Odessa, the site of deadly clashes between Ukrainian forces and rebels.

The situation in parts of Ukraine remained "dangerous and threatening", Steinmeier said, adding that the priority was for as many voters as possible to take part in presidential elections on 25 May.

[surpher 1]

(Al Jazeera) Opinion - Ukraine vs Russia: A mafia state's cover-up?

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

http://www.thewestwire.com/joe-biden-son-ukraine-gas-company/

Something intresting to read, atleast i think so! shows a bit how it really is. or you can believe its only to "help" Ukraine.

[mistyronin 1181]

(Al Jazeera) Opinion - Ukraine vs Russia: A mafia state's cover-up?

Good article. Thank you for sharing.

Both the West and Russia appear to be describing the conflict in Ukraine in the same ethno-national terms as those in former Yugoslavia. Western politicians and media accuse Russia of imperialism and revanchism, reducing the extremely complex Russo-Ukrainian mutual history and densely intertwined cultures to the primitive and rather unhelpful empire-colony model.

At the same time, Russian propaganda is peddling a ridiculous grotesque image of Ukraine being taken over by extreme nationalists, who - it claims - want to ban the Russian language and eliminate every bit of Russianness in a country, where at least half of the population speaks Russian in daily life.

[negah 26]

At the same time, Russian propaganda is peddling a ridiculous grotesque image of Ukraine being taken over by extreme nationalists, who - it claims - want to ban the Russian language and eliminate every bit of Russianness in a country, where at least half of the population speaks Russian in daily life.

Well they wanted to ban russian language from regions where it was allowed, but quickly decided otherwise when shit hit the fan, but it was kind of too late for that.

The German foreign minister has arrived in Ukraine saying he hopes round-table talks between politicians and civil groups this week will help disarm pro-Russia separatists and improve the atmosphere for elections in the country later this month.

Why is no one talking about disarming the right sector militants. Im ashamed of my own government. They simply deny the fact that the nazi Svoboda party is part of UA "government" keeping many minister posts. And right sector... no never heard about them.

USA spying on german citizens, Frau Merkel says its a shame well do something against it, one month later shes happy there is a civil war in Ukraine and no one remembers the so called NSA affair.

[mistyronin 1181]

Why is no one talking about disarming the right sector militants. Im ashamed of my own government. They simply deny the fact that the nazi Svoboda party is part of UA "government" keeping many minister posts. And right sector... no never heard about them.

I agree with you that Svoboda and Right Sector must be dealt with ( IMO shouldn't be allowed to bear weapons as a civilian, specially if they are from political organizations ). But I guess that now they are focusing all their efforts in the biggest issue that is the armed insurrection in the East.

[katipo66 94]

So what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

It's one of many examples that highlights complete hypocrisy and deception which is embraced with open arms here..

[batto 17]

Lol. Who reported me?

I did, sorry. It had nothing to do with West vs. East theme you seem to like (i.e. I didn't want to hide critique though I don't agree with your attitude). Now I feel kinda bad for it...

From my friend from Kiev:

most of the Ukrainian army actually refused to fight the rebels in Donetsk

so there are a lot of semi-nazi volunteers there

Oh, and not that I care about crap like Eurovision, but booing Russian participants for crisis in Ukraine is as low as it can be.

Edited May 13, 2014 by batto

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Talks held in bid to curb violence

The talks will include members of the interim government and regional leaders, but pro-Russian separatists have refused to take part.

The move is part of a "roadmap" drawn up by the Organisation for Security and Co-operation and Europe (OSCE).

( BBC ) Ukrainian speakers leave Donetsk amid pro-Russia surge

The declaration on Monday by separatist leaders that their self-declared "Donetsk People's Republic" was now an independent, sovereign state which could ultimately be absorbed into Russia is likely to hasten the exodus.

"If a separate Donetsk People's Republic is founded here, I will have to leave," says Olga, a businesswoman and single mother with a young daughter.

"I won't be able to speak Ukrainian, my native language. A lot of my friends are currently selling their houses and moving to west Ukraine. People are afraid for their lives and families."

Although it is not an easy decision for her, she believes she has no choice because "freedom is the most important thing".

[negah 26]

"If a separate Donetsk People's Republic is founded here, I will have to leave," says Olga, a businesswoman and single mother with a young daughter.

"I won't be able to speak Ukrainian, my native language. A lot of my friends are currently selling their houses and moving to west Ukraine. People are afraid for their lives and families."

In Crimea there are three official languages now: Russian, Ukrainian and Tatar. Just as in any other region of the Russian Federation where many locals speak a different language than Russian.

So I think she would pretty much be capable of speaking her native language further on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Russia

EDIT: I cant say the same about the Donetsk Republik though, but I think since they want to be part of Russia they'll make similar laws.

For now they have more pending concerns like fighting a civil war than making new laws.

Besides if they want to distance themselves from the nazis theyll have to make a good example by allowing any language be it Russian or Ukrainian.

I guess we simply have to wait how the situation will develop. It doesnt look like Russia is going to move its troops into Donetsk Republic for now.

Edited May 14, 2014 by negah

[Tonci87 163]

Well I sure hope the talks will finally bring an end to the violence, although I doubt it since the Separatists refuse to take part....

[mistyronin 1181]

RT informs about the same UN-marked helo that ArtTem told us yesterday.

( RT ) UN-marked strike helicopter ‘used by Kiev against militia’ sparks scandal

No other media has reported it ( InSerbia quotes RT piece of news ). And no statement has been issued by the UN.

So it's kind of weird.

---------- Post added at 14:13 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------

More weird news:

( RIA Novosti ) Ukraine’s Donetsk, Luhansk Republics Start Unification Talks

If the whole point was to unify both territories, why they didn't do it with the fake referendum?

[Tonci87 163]

RT informs about the same UN-marked helo that ArtTem told us yesterday.

( RT ) UN-marked strike helicopter ‘used by Kiev against militia’ sparks scandal

No other media has reported it ( InSerbia quotes RT piece of news ). And no statement has been issued by the UN.

So it's kind of weird.

Oh that is not good. I guess the UN will be pretty pissed about this. They could have at least over painted the UN markings....

[negah 26]

Oh that is not good. I guess the UN will be pretty pissed about this. They could have at least over painted the UN markings....

Maybe it was made on purpose, I guess out of many Mi-24s in the UA army there wouldn't be that many with the UN markings.

Why, either they hoped that the rebels wouldnt shoot at a Helo with UN markings, or they hoped the rebels WILL shooot it down so that they can be blamed for shooting down a UN helicopter.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but the new "government" in Kiev are acting unwise from the very beginning of their rule.

[mistyronin 1181]

Maybe it was made on purpose, I guess out of many Mi-24s in the UA army there wouldn't be that many with the UN markings.

Why, either they hoped that the rebels wouldnt shoot at a Helo with UN markings, or they hoped the rebels WILL shooot it down so that they can be blamed for shooting down a UN helicopter.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but the new "government" in Kiev are acting unwise from the very beginning of their rule.

Or that didn't happen... For now the UN hasn't make any statement. There is no proof yet of where the images were recorded.

It's all quite "random". The piece of news is only signed by RT and Russia Live News, both of them have antecedents of making up news. Not even the mother-company of RT, RIA Novosti, has published it.

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

offcourse its from RT so it must be fake, and your links from bbc etc must be right. didn we go there already?

anyway found the Original footage made by Lifenews.dont know where they are from, Russia or Ukraine,or any other country but they shot the footage.

http://lifenews.ru/news/133195

[mistyronin 1181]

offcourse its from RT so it must be fake, and your links from bbc etc must be right. didn we go there already?

anyway found the Original footage made by Lifenews.dont know where they are from, Russia or Ukraine,or any other country but they shot the footage.

As I see that you haven't read my last post, I'll quote it here:

Or that didn't happen... For now the UN hasn't make any statement. There is no proof yet of where the images were recorded.

It's all quite "random". The piece of news is only signed by RT and Russia Live News, both of them have antecedents of making up news. Not even the mother-company of RT, RIA Novosti, has published it.

Where did I say that "it must be fake"? Or where did I say that "my links from the BBC" must be right?

On the other hand I have used a lot of sources while adding news here from all kinds of nature ( RT, RIA Novosti, The Guardian, BBC, Al Jazeera, etc. ). So your last comment makes no sense.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well that's sad we have less and less Russian forum mates to discuss with.

Anyway, does Russia have any economic interests in eastern Ukraine, which could justify to back any separatist movements ? Military industries IIRC ?

Does Putin have any political interests (towards its own population) in this affair (Crimea put aside) ?

It's probably better to discuss and have economic relationship with Ukraine as a whole, than only with eastern Ukraine.

Could the purpose of all this be undermining presidential elections, or favour "non hostile towards Russia" candidates ?

[negah 26]

Well that's sad we have less and less Russian forum mates to discuss with.

Anyway, does Russia have any economic interests in eastern Ukraine, which could justify to back any separatist movements ? Military industries IIRC ?

Does Putin have any political interests (towards its own population) in this affair (Crimea put aside) ?

It's probably better to discuss and have economic relationship with Ukraine as a whole, than only with eastern Ukraine.

Could the purpose of all this be undermining presidential elections, or favour "non hostile towards Russia" candidates ?

Since this new "government" was installed by USA (remember the leaked telefonate by Nuland talking about Yatsenyuk as their candidate, so who is now in charge in Kiev?) its very likely they willl try to become NATO member on behalf of the US sooner or later.

Why, US wants to cover Russia with radars and anti missile defenses from all sides. Yeah they said its against Iran but why wouldnt they place it in Saudi Arabia or one of their allies close to Iran.

Russia definately wont like it just like it didnt like the same idea with Georgia (wtf a NATO country with missiles and radars right at my border?!).

AFAIK a country with running conflicts like civil war or insurgency or war with a neighbor cant become NATO member (who wants to start ww3 because of some country most of the people didnt even heard about a couple of months before).

So heres Putins interest Nr1, prevent Ukraine of becoming a NATO member.

Economically there is a lot of heavy industry as well as military production facilities in the Donetsk region. The Mi-28 enginges are for example made there, and Ukraine has stopped selling them after Crimea annexation.

Besides Russia might want to make ground conntection to Crimea, but that will require the annexation of practically the entire southern Ukraine too.

That would be Nr2 and Nr3, but I already posted it a couple of pages before.

Prior to this whole Maidan revolution stuff, Russia has given Ukraine a 15 Mrd (dollar or euro, dont remember) credit to save the ukrainian economy and prolonged the Sevastopol lease contract until 2049 (dont recall correctly either, maybe it was 2042).

Besides Yanukovich was clearly pro-russian, so I doubt Russia was the one who started it all.

Edited May 14, 2014 by negah

[Tonci87 163]

I still don´t get what is wrong with a missile defence system, it´s not as if Russia doesn´t have them on it´s borders

[surpher 1]

(FT) - Russia accused of triggering trade war with Ukraine - August 2013

Just google the title if you get the pay page.

Edited May 14, 2014 by surpher

[negah 26]

I still don´t get what is wrong with a missile defence system, it´s not as if Russia doesn´t have them on it´s borders

Its practically the same with the russian army standing on the border with Ukraine atm. Dunno why is everyone so angry about it, its not like they're on their side while the ukrainian army is on their own side.

Same goes for missile defense systems.

~~~ From here on a lot of speculations and not that much knowledge :D ~~~

The thing is, should it come to a big nasty war, those missile defense systems will be one of the first targets.

And while they can shoot down ballistic missiles (flying towards USA or other far targets), they most likely wont be able to shoot down MIRVs (raining down on Europe).

And if the russians didnt change their doctrine since the Soviet Union, which included using chemical weapons and tactical nukes to neutralise fortifications and other high value targets (like missile defense systems), Europe is basically held at gunpoint more than ever, and in case of a war we will se a nice landscape full with mushroom clouds, without being responsible for it (though how much responsibilty there still is simply by being a NATO partner is another question).

I honestly do not see how those missile defense systems are going to defend Europe, theyre more of a threat to us.

Anyway we are basically royally fucked because USA and Russia can not get along with each other and use Europe as their play ground.

If all of it sounds like a huge pile of bullcrap, I didnt slept much lately and was pretty tired while writing all of it. Good night.

[Tonci87 163]

Its practically the same with the russian army standing on the border with Ukraine atm. Dunno why is everyone so angry about it, its not like they're on their side while the ukrainian army is on their own side.

Same goes for missile defense systems.

~~~ From here on a lot of speculations and not that much knowledge :D ~~~

The thing is, should it come to a big nasty war, those missile defense systems will be one of the first targets.

And while they can shoot down ballistic missiles (flying towards USA or other far targets), they most likely wont be able to shoot down MIRVs (raining down on Europe).

And if the russians didnt change their doctrine since the Soviet Union, which included using chemical weapons and tactical nukes to neutralise fortifications and other high value targets (like missile defense systems), Europe is basically held at gunpoint more than ever, and in case of a war we will se a nice landscape full with mushroom clouds, without being responsible for it (though how much responsibilty there still is simply by being a NATO partner is another question).

I honestly do not see how those missile defense systems are going to defend Europe, theyre more of a threat to us.

Anyway we are basically royally fucked because USA and Russia can not get along with each other and use Europe as their play ground.

If all of it sounds like a huge pile of bullcrap, I didnt slept much lately and was pretty tired while writing all of it. Good night.

Nonono, the difference between an Army and a Missile Defense system should be quite obvious. One can be used to attack, the other is purely defensive.

[lesscubes 1]

The concept of mutually assured destruction is a key reason why we haven't descended into Nuclear war. Nukes keep Russia closer to an even playing field with the United States and it's allies. That's part of it. Isn't the other part the idea of Russia's national honor and prestige? That NATO would swallow up key members of the former Warsaw pact and sit at, or within the borders, of the former Soviet Union?

[negah 26]

Nonono, the difference between an Army and a Missile Defense system should be quite obvious. One can be used to attack, the other is purely defensive.

The concept of mutually assured destruction is a key reason why we haven't descended into Nuclear war.

That makes sense, missile defense systems can give someone a feeling they can nuke their opponent without being nuked back.

And while basically sitting on another continent with large seas surrounding them, they wont be affected by the fallout that much.

So yeah, missile defense systems can be indirectly used to launch a nuclear attack.

EDIT: Meanwhile in the USA:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120917/TSJ01/309170011/Military-Government-Train-Using-Zombie-Crisis-Scenario

http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/05/homeland-security-grants-went-to-zombie-apocalypse-training/

Here is a more recent one:

http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/06/army-zombie-apocalypse/#!NE9Dt

... wait, WHAT?!

Have they invented some new cool sort of throwing money away, or do they know something we dont?

Edited May 15, 2014 by negah