Ukraine General

[akm74 1]

not for no reason but as compensation for Stalin era hunger

i know that talking on and on about WW2 or 30s is "boring" , but many times due to not solving historical issues, such things are in minds of people no matter if 1 year passed or 80 years

Agree. Ukrainian origin Khrushchev gifted part of Russian land to Ukraine as compensation of Stalin (Georgina origin) and chef of NKVD Beria (Georgian origin) did to them. Make sense now.

[ofp_comissar 130]

not for no reason but as compensation for Stalin era hunger

i know that talking on and on about WW2 or 30s is "boring" , but many times due to not solving historical issues, such things are in minds of people no matter if 1 year passed or 80 years

Lol, maybe we start to looking for compensation of Polish occupation of Ukrainian lands with religion and ethnic discrimination in 1600th? When those guys run to the Moscow tzar with requests for protect?No matter, how much years passed, one hundred or four hundred?

Yeah, I reckoned as much; You don't even know what annexation means.

Just note - we talking not about annexation in classic mean. The situation in UR (Ukrainian Republic) is very similar to situation of last Balkan war in Kosovo. We have a region, where people afraid the nation, language, and economical discrimination of new government , and they do not want be in the UR anymore. They wand to separate, with their will, and with results of referendum,that will be soon with new president election. And it so funny, when reaction of main players on world arena now is directly contrary,that is was in Kosovo. NATO against separate, Russia support. Just double standards from both sides.

Anyway, ЯUSSIAИS AЯE COMIИG!!!:cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG0Ygan_Llw

[Colossus 2]

Is it just me or is Russia being a total d**k about this whole situation? One can argue the legitimacy of the current government, yes, but that's no reason for any of the parties to dismiss a dialog.

This has a very nostalgic Bush-policy feel to it.

[vilas 477]

yes, legitimacy is problem in democracy,

look at example (sorry that again from my country) from Poland:

- day before election, party X says "we gonna move back our troops from Iraq, we need to put money from army to hospitals for children"

they win election cause voters voted for this promise,

- week after election party X has first decision "send more troops to Iraq, take back money from Minsitry of Health and put them to Ministry of Defence , close few hospitals to buy more APCs"

and they say "we were voted, we are legit, for period of 4 years you can kiss our ass", sorry for me they are NOT legit and i do not see any legitimacy of people who break promisses,

what would you say about legitimacy of government which BEFORE election promissed to downgrade taxes, and soon after election set new and set more and higher taxes?

and when people go and make riots against it, they push riot-police, beat people and say "fascist protests"

so looking at Ukraine situation - legitimacy has government which has majority of nation supporting it, if majority criticize and want to punish government, their legitimacy is =0, legitimate in democracy is this, what majority wants,

Yanukovich conference in Russia was pathetic for one reason - this man should be in Ukrainian prison, not protected by Russians

i think in our democracies we miss one basic rule - if pre-voting promisses are not kept, you're out mr. gov

Edited March 1, 2014 by vilas

[scrim 1]

Just note - we talking not about annexation in classic mean. The situation in UR (Ukrainian Republic) is very similar to situation of last Balkan war in Kosovo. We have a region, where people afraid the nation, language, and economical discrimination of new government , and they do not want be in the UR anymore. They wand to separate, with their will, and with results of referendum,that will be soon with new president election. And it so funny, when reaction of main players on world arena now is directly contrary,that is was in Kosovo. NATO against separate, Russia support. Just double standards from both sides.

Yes we are. Don't be childish. Putin is in the process of invading a sovereign nation, the borders of which are universally accepted. The current "leader" in the Crimea is not lawfully elected, and the "referendum" that you speak of has not even been proposed yet, so don't act like Putin has a crystal ball in which he saw it being passed and decided to act ahead of time to protect it. The overall situation is nowhere close to that of former Yugoslavia.

And remember this: Whatever the outcome, history has always judged dictators and regimes that invade and annex recognized, sovereign nations during the 20th and 21st centuries to be regarded in disgrace forever after.

[comm_yuri 10]

People there are very very irritated, very desinformed and partialy very uneducated, mainly the ones supporting seperatism. Videos showing spontanous mass weddings at a Lenin statue, what is redicilous and embarassing and pro-seperatism supporters rejecting and throwing Georgian journalists violently out of the contested areas shouting they are working for Saakashvili in his effort to blackmail Russia ( Saakashvili isn't the leader of Georgia anymore since 2012 ). From actual video material you could see that armed soldiers ( masked men in Russian camouflage ) were helping the seperatism supporters in taking over buildings, securing them and keeping everyone who wasn't on their side and who wasn't member of Russian media, away from those fortyfied buildings. It could either be former Berkut members of Russian ethnicity or even Russian servicemen as there are reports of small Russian units being quietly deployed into Ukraine. There is also navy and airforce movement towards Krim. What in the heck is Putin thinking ? got bored of peace ?

[Tonci87 163]

Yes we are. Don't be childish. Putin is in the process of invading a sovereign nation, the borders of which are universally accepted. The current "leader" in the Crimea is not lawfully elected, and the "referendum" that you speak of has not even been proposed yet, so don't act like Putin has a crystal ball in which he saw it being passed and decided to act ahead of time to protect it. The overall situation is nowhere close to that of former Yugoslavia.

And remember this: Whatever the outcome, history has always judged dictators and regimes that invade and annex recognized, sovereign nations during the 20th and 21st centuries to be regarded in disgrace forever after.

@Scrim the Situation is ndeed quite similiar to the situation at the outbreak of the Craotian war. Croatia declared it´s independence from the Yugoslawian state. The serbian minority that was living in the Krajina province was against that. Serbian propaganda made those people belive that the new croatian government is full of nazis and fashists. Serbian Militias formed and the very powerfull Yugoslawian (Serbian dominated) army massively supported them. They wanted to remain in Yugoslawia or have their own independent Serb Republic.

I see many similiarities there.

Now it all depends on how Ukraine will react to this.

[Maio 293]

Russia approves military force

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/03/01/newday-pleitgen-russia-okays-troops-ukraine.cnn.html

Russian upper house approves use of military force in Ukraine

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/europe/ukraine-politics/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[scrim 1]

@Scrim the Situation is ndeed quite similiar to the situation at the outbreak of the Craotian war. Croatia declared it´s independence from the Yugoslawian state. The serbian minority that was living in the Krajina province was against that. Serbian propaganda made those people belive that the new croatian government is full of nazis and fashists. Serbian Militias formed and the very powerfull Yugoslawian (Serbian dominated) army massively supported them. They wanted to remain in Yugoslawia or have their own independent Serb Republic.

I see many similiarities there.

Now it all depends on how Ukraine will react to this.

Yeah, with some huge exceptions. Croatia declared their independence, and a minority was against it. In the Crimea, no one has declared independence, those who'd be most in favour constitute the majority, and the Russians invaded long before there was even anyone saying "ha, I said it first, so I'm the new leader of Crimea. That's how democracy works, right guise?".

[comm_yuri 10]

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/03/01/newday-pleitgen-russia-okays-troops-ukraine.cnn.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/europe/ukraine-politics/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

This is friggin unreal. If a war happens and everyone just sits and does nothing, the EU is less worth for me, than a blank sheet of paper.

[call_911 10]

Keep hating America thats ok, cus we don't care much about you either.

yes, legitimacy is problem in democracy,

look at example (sorry that again from my country) from Poland:

- day before election, party X says "we gonna move back our troops from Iraq, we need to put money from army to hospitals for children"

they win election cause voters voted for this promise,

- week after election party X has first decision "send more troops to Iraq, take back money from Minsitry of Health and put them to Ministry of Defence , close few hospitals to buy more APCs"

and they say "we were voted, we are legit, for period of 4 years you can kiss our ass", sorry for me they are NOT legit and i do not see any legitimacy of people who break promisses,

what would you say about legitimacy of government which BEFORE election promissed to downgrade taxes, and soon after election set new and set more and higher taxes?

and when people go and make riots against it, they push riot-police, beat people and say "fascist protests"

so looking at Ukraine situation - legitimacy has government which has majority of nation supporting it, if majority criticize and want to punish government, their legitimacy is =0, legitimate in democracy is this, what majority wants,

Yanukovich conference in Russia was pathetic for one reason - this man should be in Ukrainian prison, not protected by Russians

i think in our democracies we miss one basic rule - if pre-voting promisses are not kept, you're out mr. gov

[ProfTournesol 956]

Nobody will make war for Crimea, even Ukraine itself. The real question is : how will react the other eastern and southern regions of Ukraine, and what Moscow intends to do towards them. Several riots between pro and anti Maidan have been reported, in central Kharkiv and in Donetsk.

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah, with some huge exceptions. Croatia declared their independence, and a minority was against it. In the Crimea, no one has declared independence, those who'd be most in favour constitute the majority, and the Russians invaded long before there was even anyone saying "ha, I said it first, so I'm the new leader of Crimea. That's how democracy works, right guise?".

You can say that the Ukraine, at least the western part, has declared independence from russian influence.

[vilas 477]

the EU is less worth for me, than a blank sheet of paper.

in Sept 39 Poland had also agreements with UK, France and others in case of Hitler

if 3 countries fought with Germany in Sept 39, Holocaust would not happen, cause Hitler was than yet not so strong as in 1940 when finally he won,

in mid of 1939 those 3 countries had chance to stop Hitler,

countries do not care about "freedom", countries attack and react when their banksters feel money lost, only than , thats why there was no "freedom" bringing in Africa in 90s when milions of people were slaughtered, "freedom" is defended when there is oil, everyone talks about cooperation when he want to sell his products, when product is sold and payed, all agrements mean zero, cause money are in pocket of this who was talking about "help",

you know what is EU ? EU is "shape of banana, forbidding smoked sausage, approve electronical device in Slovakia and put on market in Berlin, LGTB, free borders", nothing more, EU doesn't guarantee you anything more than free travel to my country or me traveling to you and doing shopping there, and both bananas you buy in my shop or i will buy in your shop will have "shape according to standard"

Keep hating America thats ok, cus we don't care much about you either.

first USA promissed to remove visas if Poland will join war in Iraq, than US not removed visas, to Polish taxpayer do not see reason to pay tax for US intervention there ,

USA was promissing a lot when we were buying F16, when we bougth them than we found zero of those promisses (job places ), Poland was cheated on F16 deal and M28 production deal, Poland was told to export Polish M28 transport planes to USA after we buy F16 and "offset" which was told to create many places of job, never happened,

USA was promissing many times to remove visas to visit USA, we are one of few countries that still have visas in EU, but we put a lot of Polish blood in A-stan and Iraq for nothing,

USA acts like marketing guy who says "our product is the best, we offer support after deal for 100 years" , when bill is payed "we never told you about any support, if you want support please buy another product, we offer 100 years guarantee support for this new product" and again

Edited March 1, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

EU has no real military structure, and most of EU country have no real effective military forces. NATO is the real operational structure.

[Brisse 78]

EU has no real military structure, and most of EU country have no real effective military forces. NATO is the real operational structure.

How can you say that, when you yourself live in a country that is number 6 in the world when it comes to military expenditure.

The European Union is number 3 in the world. Only USA and NATO spend more, and you know a lot of european nations are NATO members.

EU spend more on armed forces than China and Russia combined!

French forces are very active abroad. They currently have 36,000 troops deployed in foreign territory.

[vilas 477]

How can you say that, when you yourself live in a country that is number 6 in the world when it comes to military expenditure.

The European Union is number 3 in the world. Only USA and NATO spend more, and you know a lot of european nations are NATO members.

EU spend more on armed forces than China and Russia combined!

French forces are very active abroad. They currently have 36,000 troops deployed in foreign territory.

because he said about structure of EU, EU is economical and custom deal (and "cultural"), not military, EU has nothing to military, but has to Police

[ProfTournesol 956]

How can you say that, when you yourself live in a country that is number 6 in the world when it comes to military expenditure.

The European Union is number 3 in the world. Only USA and NATO spend more, and you know a lot of european nations are NATO members.

EU spend more on armed forces than China and Russia combined!

French forces are very active abroad. They currently have 36,000 troops deployed in foreign territory.

Apart from France and UK, there's no real military forces able to intervene somewhere without being grouped under NATO or helped by the USA. Even France and UK are exhausted, France can hardly intervene in CentreAfrique ATM.

[scrim 1]

You can say that the Ukraine, at least the western part, has declared independence from russian influence.

That's a very dodgy statement about something that is a relatively gray area to say the least.

first USA promissed to remove visas if Poland will join war in Iraq, than US not removed visas,

Please show me even one statement from the US administration of the time saying that they would waiver visa requirements for Polish citizens in return for Poland taking part in OIF.

[vilas 477]

Please show me even one statement from the US administration of the time saying that they would waiver visa requirements for Polish citizens in return for Poland taking part in OIF.

Polish government was saying like they have such promisses, we are were told this in TV many times before OIF and during OIF, seems once again Polish government lied to us, but whole issue is not in war or visas, but i gave exmple of how politicians lie before election and what they do after election and how it rely on "legitimacy" of such governments, look at context of what i wrote on previous site about using OIF as example of legitimacy of governing parties in democracy

[batto 17]

Is Poland mobilizing army already o.O? I heard some rumors along with picture of enroll-form. Vilas, please investigate :3.

[comm_yuri 10]

How can you say that, when you yourself live in a country that is number 6 in the world when it comes to military expenditure.

The European Union is number 3 in the world. Only USA and NATO spend more, and you know a lot of european nations are NATO members.

EU spend more on armed forces than China and Russia combined!

French forces are very active abroad. They currently have 36,000 troops deployed in foreign territory.

He can say that even if EU had the highest military spendings in the world, because that doesn't make a combined military structure or force. EU is not one culture, nothing combined, no common goals, politics, social, structure etc. Everything what should work as ONE as EU IDEA and ideology is just on some sheets of papers and nothing in practise. All EU is farce. For decades allready. The current situation in Ukraine proves how much it failed in it's politics alone. Now you wanna come with military ? nothing organized. Ironicaly, war would be the only thing that might really unite EU as it did in it's history only by war and a common threat ( never common goal ). War would probably cause the EU to finaly adress issues and organize, communicate adequately and fight togheter. Nothing else.

If Ukrainians won't give a shait about their territorial integrity, than maybe all minorities will declare independence. Have the Russians forgotten that they are a federation of different cultures and peoples ?

Edited March 1, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[vilas 477]

Is Poland mobilizing army already o.O? I heard some rumors along with picture of enroll-form. Vilas, please investigate :3.

only some guys on facebook write such things that Polish army should be in alarm against Bandera nazis who can attack Poland cause Bandera guys told that Przemysl is not Polish town but should be Ukrainian, Polish opinion is very divided , half of internet see Ukrainians as Banderas and nazis and this half of internet writes only about 1940s issues, those people support Russia more , another half says they do not love Russia because of Katyn, so opinions are divided and only active are Polish politicians , who only look to show them in TV no matter what happens, if it was flood in Philipines, they would be standing in swiming rescue vests saying they wait for plane to Philipines,

but do not look at our politicians, they are not representating opinion of people, they want to show them in TV and hope to get better seat in Brussles

only thing that politicians care is their individual pocket and Ukrainian people can only rely on themselves - just like we could only rely on ourselves in mid 1939, real care of Polish nation is how to survive to next month from their salary and our wrecing social security system and falling pension saving system, cause we have seeeeeeeeeeeerious economical internal problems, do not look at Polish poltiicians in TV, they are just false clowns

Edited March 1, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Russian parliament authorizes military action in Ukraine

To me it's quite interesting that Putin's request was not to protect Russian people in the Crimea's region, but ALL Ukraine.

So basically he has green card to take whatever action he fancies in all Ukraine.

Also really interesting to read the lines where some Russian politicians blame the west for training the Kiev demonstrators in Poland and so on...

Deputy Speaker Yury Vorobyov said protesters in Kiev were trained in Poland and Latvia with US money and that if Russia did not intervene militarily it would be tragedy for the Ukrainian people.

And judging for how my Russian friends think, it seems that they truly believe that kind of accusations ( well before meeting some of them thought that everyone in the West hates Russian people, etc. ).

This is friggin unreal. If a war happens and everyone just sits and does nothing, the EU is less worth for me, than a blank sheet of paper.

Well, the EU and the rest of the world doesn't seem willing to move even one finger; maybe Obama will bark a bit in the next press conference. It seems that we haven't learnt much from the beginning of the 2WW.

But on the other hand, the actual Ukraine gov has said that they don't need any help to deal with Russia.

Edited March 1, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

lso really interesting to read the interesting lines where some Russian politicians blame the west for training the Kiev demonstrators in Poland and so on..

quite possible, whole secret is that our politicians are corrupted, they DO NOT feel Poles, they do not feel Slavic they say patriotism is bad and we must look at European point of view, not our own, they feel Brussels, international Banks interests,

so if some banks want Ukraine to be cheap labour source for EU, than my politicians will be spitting at Russia as much they can, nevermind that it hurt Polish farmers to sell meat to Russia,

Polish gov. doesn't care about our econical relations as people with Russian customers, they care about interests of few rich guys abroad,

probably in Poland we have chance to have our Maydan in future cause society hates our gov. like Ukrainians their ,

so many things are possible in Poland because Polish elites are not taking care about usual Polish citizen interest,

last weeks Polish gov. took our savings from pension-founds (retired found) and put it to budget and says about giving money to Ukraine...

so our gov. took my savings for my retire/pension and want to push it to Ukraine, do you understand this "logic" ?

about keeping Talibs in Poland by CIA we were told "it is bullshit" untill Obama himself told that there were prisons of CIA on territory of Poland,

one patriotic politician who was saying about CIA prisons loud was later found ... dead , officially "suicide",

Polish elites act like in time of fedualism not in democracy,they do not care if their action bring harm to us (usual people) , so far they made Russia not buy our meat and my girlfriend who is farmer and has dozens of pigs suffer economically cause prices of meat fallen down a lot cause Russia and Belarus not buy our meat , it is all because of Politicians ,

last days Polish gov. sold Polish coper resources to Canadian company for cheap price, so is it not corruption?

Polish is ruled by party that was chosen by 40% of voters (other parties had 30, 5, 10% etc.) and usually ca. 45% voters vote because 55% do not see anyone to vote for, so 40% of 45% = 18% support , says a lot

now ruling party has support like 25% and oposition like 32%, so now rulling party would lost election with opposition (which doesn't have mainstream media, cause all mainstream medias support rulling party which is "modern and polticially correct" while main opposition much less "politically correct")

to full shame - to know more i also sometimes read both Russian and US media, cause i do not trust my own media

if you would look at Polish politicians in TV you see "we support Ukraine", if you would look at 70% of internet comments it looks "fuck Bandera, fuck Nazis that killed us 70 years ago, let Russia do order with Nazis", of course those comments can be written by few trolls hired and payed from GRU ;)

if my government members would take bribe from international banksters, they would even put slavery here , so i do not distrust Russian medias in this issue, i wish elections were today, those guys who rule Poland now would not found place,

as the main result so far is loss of income for my girlfriend who has pig farm and i do not try to take any seat except fact that corrupted polticians should be in prisons , escpecially Yanukovich and Russia should give him to Ukrainians to punish him

Edited March 1, 2014 by vilas