Ukraine General

[tortuosit 486]

After in European news everything is so simple (west good, East evil, Blogger good, Interwebbs color revolution good) - but in fact things are complex - I'm out. I have no idea whos right or wrong. Especially when its hot, media oversimplify.

There may be a globalzed world. But its a wrong conclusion that anyone has to take care about anything. The opposite is the case.

[Rydygier 1317]

To give you some background: So called president in his past served two sentences for an assault and robbery. He was also a suspect in a case of group rape. Current head of state security service was an officer of AFRF till 1998. It is still unknown whether he even has ukrainian citizenship (!). After 2010 most of high ranks in country are people from Donetsk region criminal circles. And so on...

How do you think, is there real risk of division of the country into two states (E/W) as side effect of whole conflict, especially escalation in current bloody events? Would that be good or bad thing in your opinion? What may be Russia's role in the whole thing?

[tortuosit 486]

Dan;2627561']@Villas' date=' if the Ukraine ever joins the EU, the Poles would feel what has generally been felt (and concerned about) in the UK ever since Poland joined.[/quote']

...and what has been felt in Germany about Poland... And in Switzerland about Germany... And...

[batto 17]

With regard to firearms, dunno who crossed the line first:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mTO9CVdsqQ

Obviously some news (*cough* RT) pinpoint only this while other news pinpoint only police snipers...

And of course shooting unarmed people is just wrong. And screw the police, they were a$$holes first...

Edited February 21, 2014 by batto

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

There indeed more to it than you here and see, lot's of other story's you wont hear or see in the western propaganda... uhm I means news, how about the journalist that got jumped while traveling in a taxi,got dragged out off the car togheter with a other passenger and the driver,beaten up and than he got shot in the head. or why the west provides the opposition with money and every european leader(and US) have to go there and puth more fuel on the fire?

Its indeed sad for all ppl that have lost their lives,but its not only civilians,many cops have been killed aswell by gunshots, or why do the opposition have taken several cops hostage, etc,etc.

At the end off the day, nothing good will come out off this, they will replace one thieving dictator/president with a other.

[Rydygier 1317]

Also interesing, if Maidan en masse (it isn't monolith in fact isn't?) will accept recent project of political agreement. If they demand immediate resignation of the president only a bit earlier elections may be not satisfactory despite rest of points in the document...

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-02-21/polish-minister-tells-protest-leader-you-will-all-be-dead/

Edited February 21, 2014 by Rydygier

[vilas 477]

Dan;2627561']@Villas' date=' if the Ukraine ever joins the EU, the Poles would feel what has generally been felt (and concerned about) in the UK ever since Poland joined.[/quote']

i know, and you know what is problem ? main issue is this "happy political correctness" shit we have,

men in UK didn't say to their bosses "you want someone cheaper ? f*** you" and forced them to hire you instead of hire my countryman,

people in my country didn't say "we will not starve any longer, we want more money f*** you" to "elites"

all have no balls, Ukrainians have balls, they said "enough" and for this i respect them more, they could show they have enough of corrupted elites

you think Poles are happy to leave families to wash your street after graduating university ? nope, they aren't

what is most problematic - lack of balls due to lack of arms, if we had weapons like US people have, our bosses, leaders would respect us,

if not my second job (i work in 2 jobs, one job from 8AM to 4 PM, second from 5PM to 8PM+weekends) i would be following to UK too, not because i want, but because living at my age with mother is against my dignity and i want to have my car,my own flat and see mountains for 3 weeks every year, i work 7 days some times 12 hours daily(if i have commercial orders) this is insane and i wait day when in Poland we gonna have Maydan and we will say to elites "no longer poverty, no longer corruption, i want more"

our economical system allows for much more- we need to tax western companies, we must downgrade policians money, we must make state cheaper (less wasted money on elites privilages such as limousines and etc.)in West limousine is for most important men in country, prime minister, president, minister of defence etc.

in POland many directors in small regional offices have limousine with driver and gas payed from taxes, if guy is director in small office, why he not uses his private car or public transport like me?

why on state position (not commercial companies) some clerks are getting very huge money, if they want huge money, let they earn them honestly in private company, not from my taxes

in 1981 Solidarity had 21 demands, look at them : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_demands_of_MKS

Edited February 21, 2014 by vilas

[maturin 12]

I don't care if Osama Bin Laden himself rises from the dead and starting wandering Maidan with a suitcase nuke. Taking a shot with a rifle at one single person in a crowd like that is impossible. It is a statement that you don't care about killing the protestors, regardless of age or gender. Sure, in principle I don't mind the police using force to defend themselves, but you can't shoot at one target in a throng. If you do, innocent people will die at a rapid rate.

what is most problematic - lack of balls due to lack of arms, if we had weapons like US people have, our bosses, leaders would respect us,

They really, really wouldn't.

[blu3sman 11]

How do you think, is there real risk of division of the country into two states (E/W) as side effect of whole conflict, especially escalation in current bloody events? Would that be good or bad thing in your opinion? What may be Russia's role in the whole thing?

Division is only possible in the case of russian intervention like 08.08.08 war in Georgia. But not on such scale as East/West. The only region they can occupy is Crimea. There's russian navy fleet stationed in Sevastopol. And the majority of people are ethnic russians (and a lot of them have russian passports). Knowing Putin, we can expect some provocations, teracts etc. so that he will be forced to "protect russian citizens". Altough indigenous crimean tatars officially support protests and declared they want to remain as part of Ukraine.

Also interesing, if Maidan en masse (it isn't monolith in fact isn't?) will accept recent project of political agreement. If they demand immediate resignation of the president only a bit earlier elections may be not satisfactory despite rest of points in the document...

En masse it will. Bad peace is better than good war. "President" now is like a wounded wild boar, he can do a lot of stupid things and people want to stop bloodshed. For now.

Immediate resignation was enough a week ago. Everybody wants him to hang on a square with a minister of internal affairs. I can't predict how it will turn out.. If he stays in the country, some groups will probably hunt him down.

[tortuosit 486]

A united Europe basically is about cheap employees, as Vilas indicates. I can tell you about massive differences between old and newer generations. And the number of jobs, where they indirectly tell you that what you've learned is not valuable, increases. The direction is clear. Give everybody between 1 and 3k EUR before tax (btw, my tax and healthcare rate is 45%), and only one Einstein as an employer gets much more. And the owners of companies get the rest.

Balls. Well. In Germany its more and more typical to get hired indirectly. Some dirty and well known tricks and usually a third entity earns money with you, at your disadvantage. If you don't do that: 345 EUR per month by the state and getting easily forced to work in call centers or other crap.

Edited February 21, 2014 by tortuosit

[vilas 477]

lack of jobs is result of "made in china" and people thinking "i wanna take this shirt cheaper for 1 Euro"

if people "want to buy this little cheaper shirt" they ... do harm to themselves, cause cheaper means "made in china" and thats how it started and caused lack of jobs , due to people who "wanna have 100 tshirts and as cheap as possible" , so we (Europe) made it ourself due to our lack of imagination, that when i look for cheaper solution, i am taking job off from my countryman ,

in Germany you have very big industry at least and you produce a lot of goods, co imagine countries without industry which rely on tourism, agriculture in many budget percent, Poland had big industry and it collapsed from several reasons (corruption of politicians who released from tax abroad companies, lack of investment) and ... this issue that poor people wanted as cheap products as possible , so we made this harm to ourselves in 90s/00s, it was stupidity of our parents or us here (if we at least 30 here) who not cared about "made in ..." on shirts, yes i was stupid myself wanting another shirt another pair of jeans as cheap as possible

---

oh shit, they will release Timoshenko, she was only one policitician sentenced for corrupted ruling in our modern history, gosh... EU elites will not allow that any rich man from elite cannot ever be imprisoned for cheats,

she is very very very rich person imprisoned for some stuff she did as prime-minister, and whole EU elites wanted to free her (because half of our elites behave like here and they felt it is danger phenomenon that rich politician is put to justice) , bad step

Edited February 21, 2014 by vilas

[ACPL Jon 68]

It's not like Berkut murdering innocent people.

It seems it's exactly like that, brother.

It's not like Berkut freaking aliens or something, it's the same ukrainian people who receives orders and do their job.

SS also "only did their job". Stop saying that bullshit. When people want change, you talk with them, not shoot them (like someone said, it seems the police and government caused escalation). When You're an officer, no matter if police or anything "higher" tier, YOU SERVE THE PEOPLE. The authorities won't feed You, it's the people's taxes, salaries, that go for Your living. You have no right to bite that hand, especially not with a rifle, not when put against the rocks. If You do so, You're less than a piece of shit and deserve nothing more, but a painful death. Those who stand on the dictators side (and it is dictatorship when You send a fucking BTR on the protesters) always do.

It's not news that people get promoted in the social ladder when they get guns. So no, it's not "same ukrainian people", it's the "ukrainian people" + power + guns. And there's nothing more hurtful than a misguided power.

You don't suggest "it's better we move out flamethrowers in the streets" (as some Ukrainian authorities nagged the prime minister according to one of the sources) when You're not a murderer. And so, You don't enforce such order. People always had a choice, but sometimes are too much of a sheep to stand up to the people, who alone can do shit to You.

many cops have been killed aswell by gunshots, or why do the opposition have taken several cops hostage

OH NO, HOW DO THEY DARE FIGHT BACK?! These hideous scumbags wanting decent lives. Poor, poor policemen.

At the end off the day, nothing good will come out off this, they will replace one thieving dictator/president with a other.

Of course they will. It's not like revolutions ever changed anything for good. Ask Americans, French, Poles or lately, Icelanders (if I recall right). It's a very comfy position, laying down on the sofa and saying "I can't do anything". That's how this world looks how it looks, bro. Because of people like You. Edited February 21, 2014 by JonPL
sneaky typo

[vilas 477]

YOU SERVE THE PEOPLE.

it's main difference between democratic/good/just law and bad/immoral/dicatorship law

policeman who is in just system knows that he works for taxpayer and he is to protect this taxpayer against those who want to harm taxpayer (not only criminals but also corrupted system servants like clerks, judges, politicians),

in dictatorship (and feudalism !) policeman beat those taxpayers who not like wasting their taxes on luxury of "elite" ,

in democracy "system serves people who pay for it" in dictatorship "people must obey king/owner/dictator and people are made to work for him and his toys"

so you exactly posted difference between good an evil systems , yes, exactly this is this difference/border

Edited February 21, 2014 by vilas

[champ-1 40]

___

Wow, you so smart, making fun of my nickname :D

Didn't read your crap, though.

[Tonci87 163]

^I demand that this person be banned from the thread. Obviously he is not grown up enough to participate in a discussion.

Also please compare these pictures

Maidan 2009

http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/bilder/unanhaengigkeitsplatz100~_v-videowebl.jpg

Maidan today

http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/bilder/unanhaengigkeitsplatz102~_v-videowebl.jpg

unbelievable...

Edited February 21, 2014 by Tonci87

[Maio 293]

The most shocking was the snipers shooting sometimes disarmed civilians, even first aid people with red cross. That's not protecting anything.

I don't know man. I saw a video where a compact police position got hit with a frag grenade. I don't know if this was before or after they started using live rounds though. There were also reports of officers being shot days before the police units armed with live ammo were deployed. There is even a a video with "protestors" firing guns (though it's hard to identify the type and ammo they are using) from windows.

Oh and then you have these guys: 1 2 3

Just to make things clear, I am not taking any sides or condoning use of violence, just adding to the thread.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Just to make things clear, I am not taking any sides or condoning use of violence.

Yes, so am i. I don't say that protesters are right to shoot the police, and i also saw some of them shoot with hunting rifles. But police snipers shot unarmed civilians too, and that's shocking, regardless of what the other protesters did.

[champ-1 40]

^I demand that this person be banned from the thread. Obviously he is not grown up enough to participate in a discussion.

I'm 21 and I'm not going to discuss anything with guy who's trying to make jokes about my nickname.

[mr burns 132]

I saw a video where a compact police position got hit with a frag grenade.

The flying boot video was taken thailand.

Got me confused too on first sight because they used the same riot shields as seen in ukraine .. guess my mind spaced out anything else than "worlds going to shits" at the time.

[comm_yuri 10]

I'm fully supporting the cause of the opposition as the people have all rights to demand change and refuse living under such a corrupt regime. However I do not support the violence from both sides. Portests can easily escalate if someone starts provoking .... and provocations can be easily carried out by anyone, there is no justification for a violent response of such scale. The media is allways lying. I tell you why. There have been numerous occasians when from the ranks of peaceful protesters some unidentified men suddenly started throwing rocks and shouts/insults at the police and then magicaly dissapeared without a trace. It can either be radicals or policemen under cover to trigger a riot, so the goverment has a reason to disperse the crowd. Something like that happened in Georgia back in 2007 and recently also in Germany. There are rumors floating around that hired foreigners, most likely Russian security forces, have been hired to replace the Ukranians in doing the dirty job as they refused to shoot at their people. Theres a huge possibility that this rumor turns out to be true as again something similar happened in Georgia in another protest in 2011. People noticed that the guys in riot gear were speaking in foreign language and they beat the people without any restraint. Later it turned out that the former government had hired hundreds of foreigners, mostly from Ukraine, Turkey to do what the army and police refused to.

[vilas 477]

Yes, so am i. I don't say that protesters are right to shoot the police, and i also saw some of them shoot with hunting rifles.

second part of sentence i do not quote cause i do not argue, but please tell me about first part,

as i know you from posts you are about non violent man, believing in human right and all this things, you are about positivie solving cases etc.

okay, but please tell me what would make you to justify violence ? what border crossing towards you ?

if you would be living in corrupted country where police instead of " to serve and protect " does it only for "elites" but not about usual men, taxpayer?

do you remember or it was not in your press?

i would like to post there but i do not want post violent material, but let me remind case from newspapers from 2013 or 2012:

few guys raped woman, they wanted to kill her, they thought they already killed here, so they put fire on body and they left thinking they set fire on corpses,

she was not dead, she was alive, she survived

they were not punished, they get away cause all were sons of police officers, politicians, they were free and there were big riots about this in Ukraine, Ukraine is so corrupted country that gang rape, murder, seting fire on someone is not crime if your daddy is colonel

Edited February 21, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well the fact that protesters are using firearms is taken by the other side as an argument to justify more violence, the government even threatened that a military intervention may occur.

[ACPL Jon 68]

Wow, you so smart, making fun of my nickname

What's funny is that I had to re-read my stuff two times to acknowledge I somehow mixed up the words during writing.

Never wanted to call You that, but hey, if You get offended so easily...

Didn't read your crap, though.

It seems You did. But ok, I get it, You're 12. (maybe You mixed up the numbers)

And after that, I actually do have a nice new nickname for You. But for the sake of the thread I'll drop it.

Edited February 21, 2014 by JonPL

[spooky lynx 73]

The main reason of this so called Maidan is just a change of one scumbag (partly pro-European and partly pro-Russian) for another (strictly pro-EU/US). Those three dudes (Yatsenyuk, Klichko and fuhrer Tyagnibok) repeating manthra about EU association treaty being magic stick that will make everything in Ukraine better. Does the same treaty make anything better in Syria or Marocco? Nope. Will its new rules and harsh terms of new standards adoption for industry and other economic branches make Ukrainian life better? Nope. Economics will just collapse. What will become Ukraine - source of cheap labor force and market for EU goods. Looking at all that excrements happened in recent days I think that we should leave Ukraine and if maidauns want to be cheap labor force in EU - let them be.

[ACPL Jon 68]

Didn't Syria caused their own fate? It's not like EU did anything wrong here, I think. At least according to what I read here - Wiki Page.

About that Economics, etc... I know what You mean, because soon the Poles might feel what our crap government overlooked \ was too lazy to do in terms of cooperation with EU. But IMHO it's always the case of how You lead the case. With decent rulers You can work out a solution so You don't end up being slave of € and Merkel. Also, the problem is - the Ukrainians doesn't have it much better right now, from what I heard.