Ukraine General

[batto 17]

Hi.

I'd like to know what BIS community thinks about current events in Ukraine and about Ukraine in general. To be honest, I don't have clear opinion and I'm a bit confused. Please, share your thoughts and knowledge.

[nodunit 397]

From what I've heard, and take this at face value...the government was having talks about opening a free trade to the European Union in exchange to push the government to become more democratic, this had been going on for five years up until late 2013 when it was pulled.

Viktor Yanukovych cancelled the agreement back in November, the former president Yulia Tymoshenkothe along with several members of her government were charged with various crimes (wreaks of an old soviet coup to me)

Thousands of citizens flooded the streets for a peaceful protest, the police were ordered to disperse it and construct barricades, things escalated and a law was passed at the start of this year which prohibited public demonstration with penalty of 15 years prison time.

The law didn't stop and if anything it worsened the situation, it looks like a warzone now.

http://i.imgur.com/ONotkiL.jpg

If you haven't I would highly recommend you check imugr for some pictures of the thing, there are quite a number and several from various people in the region right now.

To give an idea as to how things look..

http://imgur.com/gallery/KCvsP

http://imgur.com/gallery/gOSzN

http://imgur.com/gallery/JXRoI

http://imgur.com/gallery/lnawg

http://imgur.com/gallery/Onx3Z

http://imgur.com/gallery/dWiHU

http://imgur.com/gallery/cRxzX

http://imgur.com/gallery/Gv1Wf

There are a lot of nasty things going around, making barricades with fires, both sides using molotov cocktails, grenades with nails taped to them, home made bombs, fireworks used as weapons, digging up slabs of stones from pavement to throw at police, and using dozers to clear/bulldozer police lines, it really looks like something out of an apocolyptic movie......all all the western world can focus on is fucking justin beiber.

Edited February 21, 2014 by NodUnit

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

My view is the president should either call a referendum or general election. It's what is usually done to settle things like this. They have allowed the situation to get out of control, an example of grossly incompetent leadership and irresponsibility.

Same thing is happening in Venezuela, for different reasons.

[champ-1 40]

They say many politics just left country today. Like rats running from the ship.

Also most banks closed today around the counrty. People can't get they pays and so on.

In some cities military bases took the side of protesters and give out armor and helmets to them. They didn't said anything about weapons, but I guess they could take some too.

Well, it doesn't look good.

[Beagle 684]

I have no valid opinion currently on that topic since all media information is filtered though either the EU or russian propaganda services, or how else the news channels and newpapers are called today..and the US Media seems to rather ignore it. Al i know by know is that the US does not want a Klitschko involvement in a gouvernment because he is pro EU and rather Anti US while Klitschko seems tzo be the favorite of Angela Merkel.

Ukraine seems to be a EU vs. RU vs. US influence interest case.

...and the same is right now while i write this happening in:

Mali

Nigeria

Bosnia Herzegovina

Venezuela

Mexico

...more to come

Edited February 21, 2014 by Beagle

[ACPL Jon 68]

In some cities military bases took the side of protesters and give out armor and helmets to them. They didn't said anything about weapons, but I guess they could take some too.

I certainly hope they did, I'm happy to hear that. Even tho noone likes an unstable neighbour, even tho many think our (PL & UKR) nations should still fight over shit from the 1940's, even tho we don't know what the unrest will lead to, I do see this as an ultimate Regular Joe vs System fight and I do wish luck to every Ukrainian. Have no mercy to the traitors of the people. Have no mercy to the murderers who gave out the order of using live ammo. There's nothing more degrading as fighting the uneven fight against an armed police and I really do hope Berkut will get blasted with their own weapons.

Call me immature, but it's about time to serve tight ass authority some hot lead.

[Beagle 684]

I do see this as an ultimate Regular Joe vs System fight and I do wish luck to every Ukrainian.

There is never such a fight... look up history and you'll see that even in trecebnt history it turned out after as few decades who was behind it. Even the american and french revolution weres backed up by foreign rulers.

[vilas 477]

Ukraine is indeed hard issue, hard, cause it confuses from 2 sides:

1-st side:

- they fight with corruption, i agree with JonPL , corrupted politicians who betray Nation deserve to be punished as harsh as possible,

- they fight for independence , they fight with rotten system

2-nd side:

- if they join EU, we loose jobs, cause Ukrainians will be cheaper than us, we will leave UK , Ukrainans will take our place, we will be working for piece of bread,

- some of Ukrainians are supporting pro-Hitler's UPA , UPA - Ukrainian Partisan Army, those were nationalists killing and harming Poles for national reasons, they were acting like Japanese in WW2, they were pulling unborn children from pregnant women with bayonets for fun, they were acting like from middle ages, if we forgive Germans (Hitler) and we can live together with Germans, we could fogive Ukrainans (who were in SS, if you not know history, there were SS-man Ukraine)

those things make me confuse and i do not know to support them or to not support them, JONPL said of course many good things but from other hand i afraid that one day (when Ukraine will be free) my boss will tell me "you no longer need, Ukrainian offered he can do the same for half of your salary"

for sure when citizens and taxpayers want to punish corrupted gov. i support such action, who knows if in my country there will be no next Ukraine, cause we also have enough of corruption, nepotism, bribes, unemployment and tax-free for western corporations, they pay 0 taxes in Poland cause corrupted gov. released them from taxes,

if i knew that Ukrainians are not supporting Bandera, UPA, they do not want to take my job, i would support them in 101%

one thing is sure - oligarchy, the most rich people, think they are uber-human, and they can do anything with us, we should show that we can do harm to them too , eye for an eye, but of course there might be second bottom -

case of Timoshenko - this policitian was put to jail for corruption, all west elites want her free, why ? cause elites do not agree on reponsibility for coruption ?

so they might lead to riots by intel support to make Ukraine another place where NWO steals,

it is hard and confusing issue, it might have 2 bottoms, 2 sides,

cause those riots might be corrupted movement supported by some countries intel to get Ukraine into "world bank hand" and some banksters will own their industry,

thats why i finally do not have 1 opinion and 1 vote, cause there are pro- and cons- of it, we yet do not know which is main protesters idea,

in 1981 my mother was activist of Solidarity,

she was thinking she fights for more social state, as a result we get third world feudalism where rich can do anything and worker must obey,

so idea of Solidarity (which was labor union) were capsized

the same might be with Ukraine - and they should calculate it seeing our Polish history,

in 1981 we fought for more social benefits, we get in 1989 corruption, unemployment, poverty, homeless and in 2004: 2 milions Poles emigrated to work abroad,

so my word to Slavic Brothers Ukrainians will be - calculate yourself looking at our industry , 2 milions of Poles emigrated, we do not have even on Polish bank, majority of supermarkets are German or French and they do not pay taxes, milion of Poles wash dishes and clean streets in UK although they graduated University , do you want such risk? do you want to wash street in London having MSc. MoA, PhD ? i understand you want freedom (if Ukrainian read it), I would also put bullet in head of corrupted politician who betray Nation, but do you know the risk of getting in future such shit like Poland get ? I am Pole, i want to ride Polish car on Polish street eating Polish ham and wearing Polish shirt - i can't , i have German car, i have jeans made in China, i am forbid to eat smoked ham by EU commisars and i must buy ham in Carrefour or Lidl in my neigborhood, if i loose my job i will have to go to London to wash streets although i am MSc. but there is no industry for me to produce things (i graduated heavy industry faculty with best marks, there was no job for me, i was over 1 year unemployed, i had to go to law enforcement instead of industry), your girl or your sister might emigrate to work in brothel due to lack of job, do you aware of this risk Brother Ukrainian ?

why do you want to change Ukraine Slavic Brother ? you want to be free and have your industry or you want to wash dishes in London ? beware of future, it might be worse than actual life is , learn on our Polish mistakes , do not repeat our mistakes, at least you have balls, we do not have balls yet but frustration grows here too

Edited February 21, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

Here is a timeline for everyone that couldn´t follow the incidents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan#6.E2.80.9317_February_2014

I´m in support of the protests. Corrupt politicians have ruined that country long enough (Ukraine is a country with many natural ressources, they could be very wealthy if it weren´t for the politicians).

I would like to remind everyone that the protests started as peacefull demonstrations back in November. The Police forces evidently started the violence and were the first ones to use firearms.

The Authorities could have tried to end everything peacefully back in november, instead they choose to delay everything and to use massive force to disperse the protesters.

Although I despise such escalations I really can´t blame the protesters for taking up arms. The fights reached their peak yesterday when Special forces of the ministry of internal affairs exchanged fire with armed protesters. Those scumbags were even shooting at red cross medics who tried to rescue wounded protesters. The Area around the town center looks like a warzone with barricades and burned out buildings.

And it´s not only Kiew. Liew (Lemmberg) is now without any police after protesters stormed multiple police stations. People formed militias to guard the city themselves. The incident was sparked when internal security forces shot a woman in the head. Liew is de facto in open rebellion against the government together with many other cities in the west Ukraine.

Many high ranking politicians are leaving the country. Some army garrisons are openly supporting the opposition. The gouvernor of one province was captured, tied to a stage and forced to appologize to the people.

Serves him well. I hope that this spreads to other countrys in east europe. Politicians there are mostly corrupt and their single aim is to fill their own pockets instead of working for the people. They need a wakeup call like this.

[vilas 477]

I´m in support of the protests. Corrupt politicians have ruined that country long enough (Ukraine is a country with many natural ressources, they could be very wealthy if it weren´t for the politicians).

our Slavic post-commie countries are poor cause our resources (among it industry) was stolen by "elites", very small group of people (mostly ex commie intel cooperators) became businesmen in 1989 and became very very ver very rich and now they for example live in Switzerland, our problem is that we could be richer if we were not cheated,

but let's face the fact - Wall Street protest were also pushed off, although Americans protested against banksters on Wall Street

Edited February 21, 2014 by vilas

[ACPL Jon 68]

There is never such a fight... look up history and you'll see that even in trecebnt history it turned out after as few decades who was behind it. Even the american and french revolution weres backed up by foreign rulers.

I disagree and I agree. This is the people's fight. No matter who pushes it, it is the typical average Misha or Olga, who shouts from the barricade. If such revolution wouldn't be needed, if people wouldn't want it, people wouldn't support the cause. Especially now, that they've tasted live rounds. When shit start being risky, that 60 KIA and 300 WIA risky, when You can get shot for shouting "FREE UKRAINE" and die like a dog in the middle of the street, many people would go home and say "hey, screw it, it's not worth it". But somehow they are still there and growing.

But what You said is ringing in the back of my head. You are probably right with the next sentences. It sadden me that You might be right...

...especially if You would consider who might've sparked such revolution and why.

Serves him well. I hope that this spreads to other countrys in east europe. Politicians there are mostly corrupt and their single aim is to fill their own pockets instead of working for the people.

I wish, tho definetly not with Ukrainian death or wounded toll or by 1939 playing all over again.

yet...

They need a wakeup call like this.

So very, very this. Edited February 21, 2014 by JonPL

[ProfTournesol 956]

There is never such a fight... look up history and you'll see that even in trecebnt history it turned out after as few decades who was behind it. Even the american and french revolution weres backed up by foreign rulers.

I'm afraid French revolution wasn't backed much...The whole Europe tried to stop it.

[Tonci87 163]

I'm afraid French revolution wasn't backed much...The whole Europe tried to stop it.

Pretty much this. Other countries started military operations to stop the revolution. They feared it would spread to their own.

[batto 17]

I can't read RT news about this. It's so biased. Seriously, I couldn't care less about police getting fire.

some of Ukrainians are supporting pro-Hitler's UPA , UPA - Ukrainian Partisan Army, those were nationalists killing and harming Poles for national reasons, they were acting like Japanese in WW2, they were pulling unborn children from pregnant women with bayonets for fun, they were acting like from middle ages, if we forgive Germans (Hitler) and we can live together with Germans, we could fogive Ukrainans (who were in SS, if you not know history, there were SS-man Ukraine)

I heard that from friend. They're supposedly heroes for (western) half of Ukraine. I certainly wouldn't want these lowlifes http://imgur.com/a/1ghhi/ to be remembered or to have any word on future of my country if I were Ukrainan.

On the other hand, if I were Ukrainan, I'd hate to see Putin influence in my country, passing anti-gay, anti-protest, Internet-censorship-in-the-name-of-children-lol and other fascist laws...

Certainly, the government could've helped the situation with referendums much much sooner...

I guess I can't talk for them...

Edited February 21, 2014 by batto

[vilas 477]

Batto problem with nationalizm is other - they have (due to USSR politics) big minority of Russians, 30%, due to this they have problems, cause they were (Ukrainians) put under boot of USSR and Russia (other country) has big influence , it is problem due to borders moved by USSR leader,

multiculti doesn't work , neither in west nor in east, always causes problems, when you have big minorities they try to force their rights (economy too) and ... you have problems and nationalizm grows,

problem is in borderlines, maybe Ukraine should be little divided and Russian part moved to Russia and Ukraine had their national part ? i do not know,

but you cannot look at nationalizm as something bad and evil , it is answer to breaking rights of majority, it is effect of something bad happening (for example not-patriotic elites who not care about usual citizen but care about international business), every sane man want his taxes to go for his benefit,

if nation is traditionally as west say "bigots" and elites push "politically correct" stuff, do not be surprised that majority want live like they want, not like elites told them, if people want to live "bigots" why forbid them ? if majority wants ?it is democracy that we do what majority wants, not what 1% minority forces, if you push man in pink shirt and Mc Donald to people who not want it , you will get agression in answer, it is normal, now take off guns from Americans , give them 80% tax and say they cannot eat McDonald but must eat banans only, you will get nationalizm too,

so the only poblem with those nationalists for me - are they important power, will they be agressive to Poland or not, orthodox church since ages fought with catholic church, so do they hate me or not , i don't care about gays , i care if they are danger to me (also in economical way by being cheaper worker than me),

majority of Polish internauts say "do not forgive Ukrainan crimes in 1940s", for many of us Ukrainians are alike Japanese for Chinese , family of friends of my grandmother were killed by Ukrainians in 40s, many Ukrainians hate us cause for years we were lords there (nobles) and they were our slaves (farmers) , for them Pole is noble , Count, Earl, they hate nobles, kings, Counts, Earls,

cause those lends belonged to our Kings since XV centuries to 1940s,

Edited February 21, 2014 by vilas

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

- if they join EU, we loose jobs, cause Ukrainians will be cheaper than us, we will leave UK , Ukrainans will take our place, we will be working for piece of bread,

Nonsense, there are already tens of thousands of Ukrainians working in the UK under temporary work permits, particularly in summer. Some fruit farms employ hundreds. There is also a minimum wage so "working for bread" can't happen although the system isn't policed correctly.

edit: Response to the guff below:

You surmised that Ukrainians would replace Poles in the UK job market. As there is a minimum wage, which covers the section of the job market that employs most Poles and Ukrainians, one cannot be paid less than the other by law. Logic fail as usual.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Mattar_Tharkari

[vilas 477]

ooo NWO propaganda woken up ? tens of thousands ? there will be MILIONS not tens of thousands, number of Poles who left country is 2 200 000 ,

Poland have ca 36 000 000 people, Ukraine is 2 times bigger and has 2-3 times lower salaries,

for Pole working in London means earning 3-5 times better, for Ukrainian it is 10 times better, so he will be working harder - thats why they want Ukraine in EU, Ukrainians live in poverty, much bigger poverty than in my country people live,

also minimum wage is bullhshit, in some countries minimum wage even not exist , in other countries like my minimum wage doesn't cover life costs,

costs of life in my city:

- hire flat - 1000 PLN at least, if own flat not rent/hired than monthly payment 400-500, with electricity, water, recycling etc. it is like 700-1500 PLN, minimum wage is ca 1200 netto(not gross) so for mimimum wage you cannot even hire flat alone, not saying about food, wear etc.

people who earn minimal wage must live with parents, cause they cannot afford to have own flat hired,

people earn twice more than minimal wage, i earn twice than minimal and still without girlfriend i would not be able to face life costs in big city, so do not spread bullshit about minimum wage ,

minimum wage can cover life cost when 2 people without kids live in small town, thats why i wish Ukrainians freedom and independence, but not being in EU, cause a lots of us will loose jobs ,

boss of my friend (who works on forklifter in warehouse) already told my friend "if you want salary grow, now a lot of Ukrainians will ask for job here in Poland, so shut up or i will replace you with Ukrainian ", my friend earns there 2400 (600 Euro net, not gross, after taxation, mimimum wage is half of it) but he want to have second child and new car, he cannot aford it, so he wanted to ask boss for more money, if he would go to other company he would hear the same, so far he can say to boss "but i can emigrate to UK", when Ukraine join EU, his boss will laugh at it,

those who make NWO wish this second situation - that worker has no place to run from boss and must obey like slaves, this is real breaking human rights - by economy, by need to obey,

now a lot of workers in Poland can blackmaill boss "you pay me more or i am leaving", so businesmen get angry, they want to replace Poles (because Poles want to earn like people from rest of Europe, not to earn like beggars), in job i work i could say "if i will not get more, i'll leave, i know English, i can do the same in London" and i get 10% more, when there will be Ukrainians ... oooo ,

due to big wave of Polish imigration salaries in Poland raised, cause businesmen must pay more to keep me in job (otherwise they have no worker) and businesmen getting angry, they are greed, thay want to have Ferrari instead of paying me enough so i can live,

when 80 milion country joins EU there is not tens of thousands, but milions of those who wish to emigrate for job,

if average salary in Poland was like in other European countriess (3-4 times bigger) i would not even resist against EU with Ukraine cause i would feel safety of my pocket

Edited February 21, 2014 by vilas

[champ-1 40]

___

It's not like Berkut murdering innocent people. These protestants overstepped the law long time ago and now they try take over goverment security agency and stuff. There a tonn of secret information out there, obviously they can't let protestants get there.

Also if they have AKs now it's bad news. It's not like Berkut freaking aliens or something, it's the same ukrainian people who receives orders and do their job.

Killing them as bad as killing people on Maidan.

[vilas 477]

It's not like Berkut murdering innocent people. These protestants overstepped the law long time ago and now they try take over goverment security agency and stuff.

if there was law that forbids man to love woman and law that forbids me to drink tea i would overstep such law too,

law can be good or bad, justice system can be just or corrupted,

if law is corrupted, than will to change such law is justified,

Ukraine is country which has big poverty and small group of extremly rich "oligarchs" , there is very big corruption rate,

those secret information might be "who took which bribe for selling what, whose sone raped girl and was let free"

i can remind case of poor girl which was gang raped, burned alive by sons of some Militia officers who get away due to high corruption in Ukraine

fight against corruption is justified,

corrupted law made by corrupted people is not just law, corrupted policemen, corrupted clerks, corrupted politicians must meet justice, there is no place for bribes , nepothism in modern civilised world

[ProfTournesol 956]

The most shocking was the snipers shooting sometimes disarmed civilians, even first aid people with red cross. That's not protecting anything.

[Tonci87 163]

It's not like Berkut murdering innocent people.

Well yes they are, there are videos of them shooting unarmed protesters, protesters who try to help other wounded, wounded on the ground beeing shot again, and even Red Cross Medics (with their bright red uniforms) trying to help other wounded. So yes, they are scumbags who murder innocent people.

[krycek 349]

The most shocking was the snipers shooting sometimes disarmed civilians, even first aid people with red cross. That's not protecting anything.

+1 this,there's one thing for security forces to open fire if they are fired upon to protect themselves and there's a whole other thing to gun down unarmed people.In one of the videos where unarmed civilians are shot it looks like it's sniper fire,it's pretty obvious that the ones shooting knows those people are unarmed unless those snipers have strabism.

[blu3sman 11]

To give you some background: So called president in his past served two sentences for an assault and robbery. He was also a suspect in a case of group rape. Current head of state security service was an officer of AFRF till 1998. It is still unknown whether he even has ukrainian citizenship (!). After 2010 most of high ranks in country are people from Donetsk region criminal circles. And so on...

[[evo] dan 79]

@Villas, if the Ukraine ever joins the EU, the Poles would feel what has generally been felt (and concerned about) in the UK ever since Poland joined.

[Rydygier 1309]

Some voices from the Maidan:

http://youtu.be/T4ccK0epvco

http://youtu.be/jhxqpNrn1l8