Soldier protection (dev branch)

[mjolnir66 48]

I would like to prove a point Using this video:

In this video, you will see how effective the caliber rounds are against varies walls, and using this video to show how effective body armor would be against these different caliber rounds.

I will exclude the GM6 Lynx 12.7x108mm and the M320 LRR .408 because we know body armor is not made that for that and it should be one shot kill as it is now.

Mk 18 ABR, Rahim, Zafir 7.62x62mm, looking at this video I strongly doubt that body armor would be very effect for this round up too 800 meters, maybe even more, as you can see it rips through bricks walls. it should be a one shot kill form a direct shot.

The 6.5mm as you can see in the video less powerful then the mighty powerful 7.62x62mm, but the 6.5mm is able penetrate through brick walls at close range, I doubt that the body armor will help much or at all form ranges form 100 to 200 meters 1 shot kill direct shot, and after 200 meters it's still parity dreadful, to 400 meter's. Body armor not looking so helpful right now.

The 5.56mm now here we see a possibly for body armor to have actually effect, this bullet is still lethal of course if the target is not wearing armor and should be one shot kill if the target is not wearing armor form ranges 100 to 150 meters hard too tell. but for person wearing armor it should only be a one shot kill if it's between the ranges of 25 and 50, form my point of prospective, but you can argue form my point my view.

.45 ACP armor has diffidently has part to play.

9mm​ this round will lethal vs non armored infantry, but people with armor would depend on the range 9mm would very noneffective vs high armor personal.

A standard ESAPI body armour plate today will stop 3 7.62x50 AP rounds from 14m. As a minimum. Using brick walls as a comparison is insane, they are made of completely different materials with completely different properties. I have a friend who took a hit from a 7.62x54r round from 10m away in the very edge of his back plate and he walked away from it with bruising.

And as to pistol rounds, they are so laughably pathetic that you can stop them completely with the ballistic filler in modern body armour, which is no more than 2-3mm thick. And even unarmoured people have been known to not just survive but ignore multiple pistol shots.

.357? I was told that most modern infantry helmets had one shot protection against anything under 7.62x25mm, which isn't quite as effective as .357.

They are tested upto and including .357, magnum, and they stop everything upto and including that, pistol rounds are pretty anaemic compared to even 5.56.

[instagoat 133]

I´m not sure the 6.5 would penetrate rifle grade bodyarmor. Rifle grade body armor is supposed to protect against 7.62x51 cartridges as far as I know (Type III). 6.5 delivers significantly less punch.

Type III armor made of treated steel can absorb in the dozens of hits without getting penetrated by calibers below the threshhold. There is a reference on the feedback tracker somewhere about a guy in the US military who tested these plates for choosing which to purchase, and stated that the plate took in excess of 30 rounds of 5.56 ball (I presume.) to produce significant spalling and penetration on the backside.

You would feel the hit, but unless you are seriously unlucky, it will not get through. Steel armor is -heavy- though, obviously. Ceramic or Ceramic+Kevlar combination plates would not be able to absorb as many hits, since they fragment, but you could probably take three or four 5.56 rounds to the chest with one of these plates without any of them penetrating.

Pistols would not begin to make a dent in these armors. In fact, even 1980s vintage PASGT helmets or GI steelpots will provide ample protection against pistol rounds. Modern ballistic helmets have saved Soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq from glancing or semi-glancing rifle hits, including Dragunov type fire.

The thing is, if the armor is this strong, it needs to be limited to the actual areas it protects. This means that snipers will have a more difficult job to do. You either hit in a place where there is no armor, or try to whittle the target down by immobilizing him.

From Wikipedia: Type III: stops 9.6 g (148 gr) 7.62×51mm NATO M80 ball bullets at a velocity of 847 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2780 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). Once the bullet is below the critical velocity, it will not penetrate. Materials penetration is already energy dependent, so simply including different types of plates for the different vests and incorporating them into the fire geometry in such a shape as to reflect their actual location (as per my example image.) will solve this problem easily and elegantly.

Last thing needed is complex injury and injured movement animations and more punishing bleedout modelling, as well as knockdown, and we`re set.

A standard ESAPI body armour plate today will stop 3 7.62x50 AP rounds from 14m. As a minimum. Using brick walls as a comparison is insane, they are made of completely different materials with completely different properties. I have a friend who took a hit from a 7.62x54r round from 10m away in the very edge of his back plate and he walked away from it with bruising...

Pretty much this. Ballistic materials science has advanced -massively-, and the protective capabilities of these systems are not modelled adequately ingame.

Edited December 20, 2013 by InstaGoat

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah plates can take alot of beating. In 2035 I would imagine even more - though maybe the bullets will increase in efficiency as well.
Comparing body armour to bricks not good.

I think right now the biggest problems are

• body armour coverage (as Instagoat mentions)
• hit reactions/effects.
• 
  

Problem is we don't know where the devs stand on these issues. Are they able to split the body up into more hitzones to make more realistic body armour coverage? Are they willing to implement hit effects or would this be a medical/wounding system feature?

It seems most want to see body armour ingame, me included. But if all aspects of the system aren't implemented well it can easily screw up the game. So I really hope the devs continue to develop the mechanics of the system rather than just tweak it. I look forward to see what comes next year.

[instagoat 133]

Yeah plates can take alot of beating. In 2035 I would imagine even more - though maybe the bullets will increase in efficiency as well.

Comparing body armour to bricks not good.

I think right now the biggest problems are

• body armour coverage (as Instagoat mentions)
  
• hit reactions/effects.
  
• 
  

Problem is we don't know where the devs stand on these issues. Are they able to split the body up into more hitzones to make more realistic body armour coverage? Are they willing to implement hit effects or would this be a medical/wounding system feature?

It seems most want to see body armour ingame, me included. But if all aspects of the system aren't implemented well it can easily screw up the game. So I really hope the devs continue to develop the mechanics of the system rather than just tweak it. I look forward to see what comes next year.

Technically it should be possible. All the vests need are surfaces inside them modelled to the shape of the plates, and some sort of RVMAT applied to them. Then the engine handles everything (ie, materials penetration.). Which is what I´ve been screaming about for a couple of months now. Last I heard there were some hindrances with the core game code about this, nothing specific though.

Tweaking the current system would be rubbish, since it is inherently flawed AND misplaced in the game as it is. You can use mathematical modifiers in games where you have thousands of characters (such as RTS games) or games that have too many variables such as RPGs. But here, all we have is bullets. It´s a system fit to handle dozens or hundreds of variables dealing with only one variable, making it completely inadequate. I really hope we will see the system change.

[progamer 14]

You guys keep saying it's 2030 so they should work better. But they are modelled off of current body armor. Unless someone made some brand new body armor and then decided to make it exactly like current armor, them it's not some futuristic armor. It's current armor likely used because it's cheap and affordable. So stop with the "it should be better because 2030." stuff please.

[-Coulum- 35]

Technically it should be possible. All the vests need are surfaces inside them modelled to the shape of the plates, and some sort of RVMAT applied to them. Then the engine handles everything (ie, materials penetration.). Which is what I´ve been screaming about for a couple of months now. Last I heard there were some hindrances with the core game code about this, nothing specific though.

Yes overall that would be the ideal. Plates could even have "health" that once depleted, the plate no disappears no longer protecting the wearer. But the question is why has BIS gone the route of damage reduction in certain hit zones then? There must be something that is preventing them from doing exactly what you say. My guess is the penetration simulation isn't precise enough for such fine detail. That is just a shot in the dark though, I really don't know and do hope we find out eventually.

Tweaking the current system would be rubbish, since it is inherently flawed AND misplaced in the game as it is. You can use mathematical modifiers in games where you have thousands of characters (such as RTS games) or games that have too many variables such as RPGs. But here, all we have is bullets. It´s a system fit to handle dozens or hundreds of variables dealing with only one variable, making it completely inadequate. I really hope we will see the system change.

Well yes the current system right now is pretty shitty. I just tested and can't even seem to get one shot kills with the MX carbine (against helmets) - so basically my enemies will know that they absolutely cannot get killed by one hit. This is ridiculous and kills the fear, caution and intensity that makes the game great.

On the other hand I think that if more detailed hitzones were made that the damage reduction system could get the job done well enough. I know what you mention with RVMATs above would be better. Damage reduction with more hitpoints wouldn't be all that out of proportion with the depth of other features in arma.

You guys keep saying it's 2030 so they should work better. But they are modelled off of current body armor. Unless someone made some brand new body armor and then decided to make it exactly like current armor, them it's not some futuristic armor. It's current armor likely used because it's cheap and affordable. So stop with the "it should be better because 2030." stuff please.

What? I didn't know that the armour in game was actually modelled after a particular type of armour - which one? I assumed it was just generic armour... Either way it makes no difference to my point. Modern armour today and armour in 2035 will both be able to stop multiple 7.62 hits from non AP ammunition.

[rye1 21]

The same argument goes in 2035 rounds should work better against the said armor and soft tissue targets.

[L3TUC3 32]

What? I didn't know that the armour in game was actually modelled after a particular type of armour - which one? I assumed it was just generic armour... Either way it makes no difference to my point. Modern armour today and armour in 2035 will both be able to stop multiple 7.62 hits from non AP ammunition.

I concur, as far as I can tell it's generic type III(+) plate carrier or similar for Nato/AAF. Right now everybody is just guessing as to what kind of plates. Could be the same, could be better. Still just guesswork.

All we can do is see if it acts somewhat believable and give feedback on that.

[13islucky 10]

The same argument goes in 2035 rounds should work better against the said armor and soft tissue targets.

I seriously doubt that because money. The more advanced ammunition such as OTM or AP costs significantly more today than standard ammunition, and fielding such ammo in mass quantities would be economically unstable (assuming we don't find a magical way of producing ammo much at a fraction of the cost).

[progamer 14]

I concur, as far as I can tell it's generic type III(+) plate carrier or similar for Nato/AAF. Right now everybody is just guessing as to what kind of plates. Could be the same, could be better. Still just guesswork.

All we can do is see if it acts somewhat believable and give feedback on that.

If we knew what the body armor is called in real life, it could make things a lot easier. I'm sure someone have found out what they are called though.

---------- Post added at 08:54 ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 ----------

I seriously doubt that because money. The more advanced ammunition such as OTM or AP costs significantly more today than standard ammunition, and fielding such ammo in mass quantities would be economically unstable (assuming we don't find a magical way of producing ammo much at a fraction of the cost).

The ammunition is not futuristic. It's current real world ammunition. I know at least a few calibers are Israeli.

[instagoat 133]

I concur, as far as I can tell it's generic type III(+) plate carrier or similar for Nato/AAF. Right now everybody is just guessing as to what kind of plates. Could be the same, could be better. Still just guesswork.

All we can do is see if it acts somewhat believable and give feedback on that.

Since the plates are perfectly interchangeable, making "light", "medium" and "Heavy" plate carriers would actually make sense. Light would be IIIA with protection against distant rifle fire and close-in protection against pistol caliber bullets, as well as explosions. Medium would be III(+) against rifles up to 7.62x51 per the standard on front and back, and Heavy would be type IV and III(+) Both front and side plates, as well as crotch plates and neck protectors.

The "heavy" and "light" models ingame right now make no sense because the protection difference is A: miniscule and B: mathematical, so you can't tell with any reliability what it does, and it also protects the whole body instead of just the area behind the plate.

So, basically this, as an example:

Crye Cage in three versions: light, medium, heavy:

light: soft armor side plates (pistol caliber protection), type IIIA plates front and back to protect against fragmentation (ie, reduce blast damage against torso) and pistol caliber rounds. Soft armor inserts in the combat belt (The model ingame actually provides for such protection to be added in real life, as such it should model this ingame too.) 1,5 Kgs for both plates and 0,5 kgs for the soft armor in vest and belt.

medium: type III(+) plates front and back, as well as side plates. Increase weight. 2,5 kgs for four plates.

Heavy: Type IV plates all around again. Increase weight again. 5 kgs for four plates.

There is not much improvement to be expected as far as ballistics go. The only real advance that makes sense is smart rounds for weapons like sniper rifles or specialty rounds for squad leaders and the like, but as far as the armor and ballistic damage from rounds goes, no changes should be made in terms of effectiveness from the real life baseline we have.

[CaptainObvious 95]

The ammunition is not futuristic. It's current real world ammunition. I know at least a few calibers are Israeli.

Because caliber is the only aspect in ammunition?

[rye1 21]

I seriously doubt that because money. The more advanced ammunition such as OTM or AP costs significantly more today than standard ammunition, and fielding such ammo in mass quantities would be economically unstable (assuming we don't find a magical way of producing ammo much at a fraction of the cost).

That's up to the mission maker, isn't it? Restricting it by operational capacity is being unfair to all the communities that use this game in different manners. You're discussing total war: an increase in production, research and development, and selective disruption of such ammunition. That does not mean that somewhere along the track you're not going to get it. Authenticity to the degree it is currently is still maintained.

[13islucky 10]

That's up to the mission maker, isn't it? Restricting it by operational capacity is being unfair to all the communities that use this game in different manners. You're discussing total war: an increase in production, research and development, and selective disruption of such ammunition. That does not mean that somewhere along the track you're not going to get it. Authenticity to the degree it is currently is still maintained.

Oh yes, absolutely. It's up to the mission maker if they want to have whatever they want as a loadout, but I think that it would be unreasonable to think that such ammo would be commonly available in things such as the default loadouts and the campaign.

[Koj 10]

Just to add fuel to the fire (maybe) but a Soldier in my tour in Afghanistan got shot six times and actually lived.... so there's a need for "what's real" when "what's real" is depending on the person getting shot, etc. So you can walk around in an armored suit and either get taken out by one bullet or six or more (remember a guy high on PCP can take multiple shots and not die, or at least until the dope wears off....) as there are so many variables. So I think the current system is fine, you take some shots you live, you take one shot you're dead, just like real life...

Hi, I know i'm a bit late and that the discussion has moved on but i didn't find any post that shared my opinion, so i just wanted to share it with you.

For context, i'm just a videogame jerk who has never served in the military neither ever shot at any living thing.

Like many others I'm not really glad with the actual wounding/ballistic system, and i think the TPW Fall gives a good compromise for the situation right now. I also trust BIS for the will to upgrade the existing situation. But we need steps.

In the game right now there are only two states : Alive or Dead.

It seems to me that an alive AIs is shooting at you with the same precision with 0 or 5 bullets in the body. I'm sure EricJ's friend (hope he's fine now) wasn't jumping like a squirrel and shooting like Chris Kyle with 6 bullets in his body.

So, as there is no inbetween state in the game right now i think step 1 would be the dev thinking "Able to move and shoot" or "Incapacitated" instead of Alive or Dead. As a videogame jerk, I assume you could take 1 to 3 bullets max before your aim and movement are affected by the wounds. Of course depending on the caliber and location of the wounds. But not 5 bullets...

PCP is bad m'kay so let's only talk about "ordinary" situations, i also really think we need a reaction to being shot. A significant reaction, that lasts for at least 5 sec, wether you fall or you can't aim or both, i don't expect my video game avatar to take a bullet with so few reaction as it is now.

We could also imagine a step 2 where BIS implements wounding localisation. Also with the Able / Not able state but with independant parts of the body. Like when you get shot in the legs, you can't stand/walk/run; shot in the arms, you can't aim/shoot; shot in the vest, you loose stamina and aim, etc...

All this could be implemented alongside with a new armor system as it is only AI and player reaction.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Koj

[rye1 21]

Oh yes, absolutely. It's up to the mission maker if they want to have whatever they want as a loadout, but I think that it would be unreasonable to think that such ammo would be commonly available in things such as the default loadouts and the campaign.

Think about the background and mission capacity the team holds, against a known and capable enemy who wears body armor.

[13islucky 10]

It's funny you should mention localized damage, because there it seems to have been somewhat implemented somewhere down the line. I notice considerable sway when being shot in the arms and the inability to sprint when shot in the legs. In my honest opinion I don't think that not being able to sprint is harsh enough a punishment.

Just putting that out there, for whatever good it is.

Think about the background and mission capacity the team holds, against a known and capable enemy who wears body armor.

If you consider it the way it is now, then yes of course. However, if the devbranch is to be trusted, then CSAT don't really have body armour anymore. Their fatigues are no longer very useful against rifle shots (with 6.5 it's 2 to the chest and they drop), and their load bearing vests also offer little protection. Just an interesting thing to note. Not exactly the "mag dump, nothing happens then get heashotted by flinching bot" situation on stable. Edited December 23, 2013 by 13isLucky

[tmortensen 10]

Im glad this thread is open.

I made a mission with 5.56 mod pack rifles, and other mods to make it more today's date.

To find the 5.56's do about the same damage as a nerf-gun.

extended armour is understandable for the use of difficulty levels.

However the vast indifference between opfor and blufor armour values is mad, relating to the chest pieces that is. (availability)

In context, my mission poses enemy units with harnesses and belts, not rigs or plates. yet it still takes 4-5+ shots to down a target with a 5.56.

Combat simulator, not call of duty simulator. I didn't know A3 involved the juggernaut perk.

it should be (at centre mass)

9mm 1/2 (within range)

.45 1(within range) 2 (out of effective range)

5.56 2 (within range) 3 (out of effective range)

6.5 1 (within range) 2 (out of effective range)

7.62 1 (within range) 2 (out of effective range)

.50/.408 1 shot no question

if body armour is involved then the increase should be by a variable of like 50% more damage needed (at a maximum (that being plate carrier))

[progamer 14]

Im glad this thread is open.

I made a mission with 5.56 mod pack rifles, and other mods to make it more today's date.

To find the 5.56's do about the same damage as a nerf-gun.

extended armour is understandable for the use of difficulty levels.

However the vast indifference between opfor and blufor armour values is mad, relating to the chest pieces that is. (availability)

In context, my mission poses enemy units with harnesses and belts, not rigs or plates. yet it still takes 4-5+ shots to down a target with a 5.56.

Combat simulator, not call of duty simulator. I didn't know A3 involved the juggernaut perk.

it should be (at centre mass)

9mm 1/2 (within range)

.45 1(within range) 2 (out of effective range)

5.56 2 (within range) 3 (out of effective range)

6.5 1 (within range) 2 (out of effective range)

7.62 1 (within range) 2 (out of effective range)

.50/.408 1 shot no question

if body armour is involved then the increase should be by a variable of like 50% more damage needed (at a maximum (that being plate carrier))

You should understand realistic does not mean BF4 hardcore mode. Things aren't always easy to kill, those easy to kill locations are usually protected in the real world.

If you think anti material rifles are one hit kill in real life you are crazy. Some body armor types can protect from them. They also pass through targets without spreading out inside the body like other bullets.

Any changes should be made from real world knowledge and data. Not someone guessing.

Edited December 25, 2013 by ProGamer

[iratus 71]

Any changes should be made from real world knowledge and data. Not someone guessing.

While real-world data certainly should be the basis, one must not forget the big picture. Having high-protective plates (stopping up to 6 rounds of 7.62mm) aviable only works if we get improved hitzones (so there is a chance of a bullet hitting a non protected area) AND if we get a strongly improved injury system that allows to be temporarily knocked down, supports bleeding and such. Call me pessimistic, but i don't expect tho get those systems.

Without new hitzone- and injury-systems such high protective values will significantly change the gameplay. Knowing to be able to soak up multiple hits without "gowing down" will result in more reckless behaviour, especially if one knows that a first aid kit can heal most of the damage. Soldiers in the real world do not want to get shot at even if they know their vest will probably stop the bullet. Virtual warriors on the other sinde don't care because there is no pain. And if it takes one third of a magazine to drop an enemy, effective distances will become much shorter since one will need a good full-auto salvo to do enough damage that it matters. Shorter distances are also easyer to "rush" because the enemy has less time to get seven or eight hits on you, thus rewards reckless behaviour once more. Also factions who do not have plate carriers widely aviable (i.e. CSAT and FIA) would end up at a significant disadvantage.

Changing the damage treshhold alone to such high values could easily end up in more battlefieldy gameplay (well, "normal mode" not "hardcore mode"). If we don't get significant changes in the hitzone and injury departments, I'd much rather prefer the values sugested by tmortensen.

[MrR4PT0R 1]

If you think anti material rifles are one hit kill in real life you are crazy. Some body armor types can protect from them. They also pass through targets without spreading out inside the body like other bullets.

I am not aware of any body armor able to protect from something even close to an antimaterial rifle , a center of mass hit by these rifles means instant death and decapitation for the target. I would also like to note that the pass through/clean of a bullet is a myth , even if the bullet doesn't hit any vitals the exit wound is much much bigger that the entry wound and results in much more damage and blood loss .

[dnk 13]

The only "instant" death is a CNS hit, and even then it's only really "death" when it's the brain. I would imagine a .50 round hitting you dead center would be fairly instant regardless, just due to insane amounts of shock. You're not shaking that one off...

But if we're going to get nitpicky... also, where's this decapitation coming from? Pretty sure getting hit in the torso by a .50 doesn't make your head pop off. Guess I've never been in war, though, so what do I know?

[scrim 1]

If you think anti material rifles are one hit kill in real life you are crazy. Some body armor types can protect from them. They also pass through targets without spreading out inside the body like other bullets.

Yeah, there's no body armour in the world that can stop a round from an anti material rifle. I'm fairly certain no one's even ever been bothered to try making one. If anyone, regardless of body armour gets hit in the torso by one, they're dead. If they're hit in the arms or legs, then that is severed.

[progamer 14]

I am not aware of any body armor able to protect from something even close to an antimaterial rifle , a center of mass hit by these rifles means instant death and decapitation for the target. I would also like to note that the pass through/clean of a bullet is a myth , even if the bullet doesn't hit any vitals the exit wound is much much bigger that the entry wound and results in much more damage and blood loss .

I was under the impression that the myth was that anti materials rifles were always one kill in real life.

[windies 11]

I was under the impression that the myth was that anti materials rifles were always one kill in real life.

Even if you don't receive irreparable damage to vital organs, the amount of shock and blood loss would be enormous and extremely lethal probably no matter where you got hit. I'm sure that someone will or has survived being struck by a .50 round or other AM round. That doesn't mean it's an every day occurrence or not an extreme outside the norm. As far as body armor, unless you're wearing a couple manhole covers for trauma plates, you're not gonna stop a .50 from penetrating, unless you're at an extreme range like 1 mile or better and even then it would still have enough energy to penetrate most normal body armor. That's the reason they are "Anti-Material Rifles", They blow big holes in hardened shit.