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Damage system sucks - fix needed

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Guys, I'm a fan of your games - I really am.

Just see what I did to contribute to the community.

But here, I've just finished another ArmA 3 session and God! The damage system sucks so hard!

I had an MX +GL.

The enemy AI takes 40mm grenade less than 1m from him and they're still alive - not only alive but also able to run and shoot at me (and kill me 1 shot 1 kill).

Also, it's impossible to kill a guy with a single bullet (except with headshot) - often need 4 or 5 bullets in the chest.

Moreover, it seems that damage localisation is gone - guy shot in the leg can still walk (or even run) and a bullet in the arm does not affect accuracy (but for the player).

I tested on ArmA 2, 2 or 3 (maximum) bullets of 5.56 are needed to kill a guy (7.62 is often 1s1k).

So please, fix it fast for ArmA 3!

Give us back the previous damage system!

ATM, it DOES look like CoD - no damage localisation and AI enemy who CAN take 5kgs of bullets without dying nor being affected by them.

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Rather than make a bunch of bandaids for the problem, I would prefer waiting for a proper complex medical system which would likely include a better damage system.

The hp health system must die!

The body armor also has to be improved to not make the entire player protected. And body armor could make use of proper penetration and armor plates.

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  Progamer said:
Rather than make a bunch of bandaids for the problem, I would prefer waiting for a proper complex medical system which would likely include a better damage system.

The hp health system must die!

The body armor also has to be improved to not make the entire player protected. And body armor could make use of proper penetration and armor plates.

I want a nice proper wounding system and to do away with hitpoints (though you always need them to some extent). I also am waiting and hoping and don't expect BIS to deliver anything now or even years down the road. I would rather it be done proper than "bandaged". But I do think that are some things regarding wounding that need to be done now because it is generally agreed that it takes away from thee enjoyment of the game. What needs to be done ASAP?

Proper AI And Player Reactions To Hits: I don't care if we have the most basic hitpoint wounding system, this needs to be fixed. The little twitch that player and ai receive upon being hit isn't nearly enough.

Ideally there would be several different reactions that would all have a random probability of playing out depending on the severity of the wound - maybe that's to complex though. But at the very least we need:

  • Extremely severe but temporary (2-5sec) aiming decrease for ai - they should literally be sprayingg all other the place. Could be extended player to in the form of sway or recoil.
  • Random chance of ragdoll or better yet an animation based on the location hit and severity of hit - for both ai and player.

BIS you really need these. This does seem to be becoming a big issue and one of "those reasons" why people can't get into arma. There is tonnes more that could be added ontop, but these are the bare necessities - without them people are just going to stop playing, because ai is a huge part of this game and no matter how good the playground is, if you have only bullies to play with you're not going to have fun. I am not the first to mention this and its actually already possible to script in. I use an event handler to trigger massive temporary drops in ai accuracy and TPW's mods does a good job too. But there is no reason this kind of behaviour shouldn't be in vanilla as well. I can't imagine anyone being in opposition to it. And it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to implement though I am really in no position to make that assessment.

A complex wounding/medical system can wait - a rudimentary reaction to fire for players and especially for ai cannot. I hope its high on the todo list.

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  ProGamer said:
Rather than make a bunch of bandaids for the problem, I would prefer waiting for a proper complex medical system which would likely include a better damage system.

The hp health system must die!

The body armor also has to be improved to not make the entire player protected. And body armor could make use of proper penetration and armor plates.

I wouldn't say a "complex medical system". I would say that an A.C.E. type of system for medics and players in the vanilla game would be a nice addition. If you really want to improve such you have to start with the hit detection system, and then how that damage is propagated. In ArmA 2 it could be propagated along the whole body mass - even for a shot to the toe. The hit detection system was clumsy, especially at longer ranges but all in all you still have to account for server strain, instant scripting and outcomes needed just to detect and do something with the hit.

If they wanted to improve body armour they could improve that around it - types of rounds such as AP, API. Differentiate it into different classes, for example III would stop 9mm most times. It would take a LOT of work and effort, and probably need tweaking and tweaking and tweaking until playable.

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I'd just be happy for it to make sense (legs shots more damaging than arm shots, for headshots to be, you know, lethal, etc) and for body armor to be more properly modeled. Everything else is extra, nice, but not a priority.

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  DNK said:
I'd just be happy for it to make sense (legs shots more damaging than arm shots, for headshots to be, you know, lethal, etc) and for body armor to be more properly modeled. Everything else is extra, nice, but not a priority.

The problem with arm shots is that in real life, the bullet will often pass through the arm and into the chest cavity. Frequently insurgent snipers target that area to bypass troop's body armor. In a game, the bullet is stopped by the arm, so making arms less damaging could present problems.

Anyways, personally I want proper body armor, I want some vital organs, and I want more realism in certain areas (for example, shoot someone 10, 20 times in the legs, they don't die immediately, instead they bleed out, and of course prevent them from properly using their gun in those cases because players and AI don't feel pain and would just use the opportunity to shoot back).

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go in a warfare mission - then go option - unitcam - iron sight.

and you see - the ai has no breath , no effect for wounded or stance ! he shoot alltime in all condition's deadly.

when a ai have you as target locket - then gives for the ai not more objekts for block the sight - he see you all time ! behind of houses, towns , hills he will follow you with a direct sight line or with no sight on you, is the same ^^

the ai has only different aimbot stances - when the ai have the stance for , shoot him in his head select - then shoot the ai you in your head ;) 20 50 150 or 200 meter or longer no problem the ai aimbot is on your head for the first shoot. only the distance and your move ( the bullet time for that way ) can save you.

that is the problem with the AI ;)

ai is a real cheater ;)

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  Goose said:
The problem with arm shots is that in real life, the bullet will often pass through the arm and into the chest cavity. In a game, the bullet is stopped by the arm, so making arms less damaging could present problems.

Haven't tested this but I thought body parts also have a chance of penetration? At least I think I've seen a bullet go through a head? So a shot in the arm might deal the damage twice.

  JgBtl292 said:

when a ai have you as target locket - then gives for the ai not more objekts for block the sight - he see you all time ! behind of houses, towns , hills he will follow you with a direct sight line or with no sight on you, is the same ^^

That's not true. AI only knows where he last saw you. And if you run behind a house from the left, he will guess where you are if you would keep moving in the same direction. So he will be aiming at the right side thinking you will come out there. You can even fool them by running behind an obstacle, run around them without being spotted and surprise them from behind.

And at least in latest development version, a player shot severely in the leg can't run, he can move standing up, but very slowly. I don't know if this applies to AI characters, I would guess it does.

Edited by Greenfist

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Bullets go through limbs but not vests, generally speaking.

  Quote
and you see - the ai has no breath , no effect for wounded or stance ! he shoot alltime in all condition's deadly.

when a ai have you as target locket - then gives for the ai not more objekts for block the sight - he see you all time ! behind of houses, towns , hills he will follow you with a direct sight line or with no sight on you, is the same ^^

the ai has only different aimbot stances - when the ai have the stance for , shoot him in his head select - then shoot the ai you in your head 20 50 150 or 200 meter or longer no problem the ai aimbot is on your head for the first shoot. only the distance and your move ( the bullet time for that way ) can save you.

that is the problem with the AI

ai is a real cheater

Quick reply to this message Reply Reply With Quote Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message

False. Please stop.

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lol

  Quote
That's not true.

go in a abc or a tank other wahtever as driver or commander. give him no ammo and set a other tank in the map with no ammo . set all two tank in a 100m circle. give the enemy tank a waypoint over the map.

start the map. now give your gunner the enemy tank as target - and look ^^ he follow the enemy tank with the gun - behind hills towns woods - no problem for the ai ;)

make your eyes open ^^

when the ai locket you as a target - then he can see your ways behinds objects hills !when he locket you as target . not when he see you only short !!!!

Edited by JgBtl292

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He's only predicting your position based on your last observed heading and speed. You didn't bother to check whether he was actually looking in the right direction, did you?

If there is some sort of shitty radar feature on the tank's HUD, that may be able to look through hills, but the AI on its own can't track your position unfairly. Exhaustively proven again and again again, starting from when bad players started whining in ArmA 2.

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  -Coulum- said:
I want a nice proper wounding system and to do away with hitpoints (though you always need them to some extent). I also am waiting and hoping and don't expect BIS to deliver anything now or even years down the road. I would rather it be done proper than "bandaged". But I do think that are some things regarding wounding that need to be done now because it is generally agreed that it takes away from thee enjoyment of the game. What needs to be done ASAP?

Proper AI And Player Reactions To Hits: I don't care if we have the most basic hitpoint wounding system, this needs to be fixed. The little twitch that player and ai receive upon being hit isn't nearly enough.

Ideally there would be several different reactions that would all have a random probability of playing out depending on the severity of the wound - maybe that's to complex though. But at the very least we need:

  • Extremely severe but temporary (2-5sec) aiming decrease for ai - they should literally be sprayingg all other the place. Could be extended player to in the form of sway or recoil.
  • Random chance of ragdoll or better yet an animation based on the location hit and severity of hit - for both ai and player.

BIS you really need these. This does seem to be becoming a big issue and one of "those reasons" why people can't get into arma. There is tonnes more that could be added ontop, but these are the bare necessities - without them people are just going to stop playing, because ai is a huge part of this game and no matter how good the playground is, if you have only bullies to play with you're not going to have fun. I am not the first to mention this and its actually already possible to script in. I use an event handler to trigger massive temporary drops in ai accuracy and TPW's mods does a good job too. But there is no reason this kind of behaviour shouldn't be in vanilla as well. I can't imagine anyone being in opposition to it. And it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to implement though I am really in no position to make that assessment.

A complex wounding/medical system can wait - a rudimentary reaction to fire for players and especially for ai cannot. I hope its high on the todo list.

^this

Add proper body armor and a decent medic system and you have a winner.

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  Greenfist said:
Haven't tested this but I thought body parts also have a chance of penetration? At least I think I've seen a bullet go through a head? So a shot in the arm might deal the damage twice.

I'm pretty sure they do now, haven't tested it but it was a feature requested back in alpha.

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Hey guys, this is just a thread about damage system, not AI behaviour

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the damage handlers are especially screwed up. there are several tickets on the feedback tracker from incorrect hit boxes to very strange damage distribution. I actually don't think they have ever worked properly in arma 3 yet. the last 2 dev updates have the damage handler selections reading arms and legs as all body hits, the only exception is the head still returns head hit. also the damage handler im using in a mission doesn't even always return the projectile properly, so the guy that just shot my character didn't actually fire a bullet evidently according to the damagehandler. overall the damage system seems to change daily. even though nothing is actually reported specifically in the changelog. some days are a lot better then others. they did mentioned they were changing the armor system to depend on what the unit is wearing, but so far that damage system has been WAY screwy.

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  Wiki said:
Hey guys, this is just a thread about damage system, not AI behaviour

What I am trying to say is that a new damage system wouldn't be immediately necessary if ai and player had proper hit reaction and wounding effects.

Its not actually all that unrealistic for a guy with decent armour on to be able to take 4 or 5 to the chest and still be conscious. Its just that he will not react with the twitch and instant headshot that the current ai and occasionally players are capable of. The way hitpoints are dealt is actually reasonably balanced for a hitpoint system. Its the effects of being hit that are lacking.

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Yeah, that's more what I meant.

Good old days in which shot in the leg would prevent you from standing and walk...

I miss them.

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For what your asking I would highly recommend getting this:

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=22592

I edited the mod for myself and my buddy i play with and I only have running the

Units reacting realistically to suppressive fire by ducking and seeking cover (TPW EBS).

Units reacting to falls and bullet hits by falling to the ground (TPW FALL).

Units continuing to bleed from injuries, resulting in decreased mobility and eventually incapacitation and death if not treated (TPW BLEEDOUT).

The bleedout is Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you can hit a guy in the leg or wherever and if he has no med kit to treat himself he will bleed to death, you can stand there and watch them doing a test, wound the AI, and they will like limp, sometimes get slow, or after so many seconds that happens then they fall to the ground acting really hurt and cant move like, and then they stop, with sniper rifles long range like the m200 cheytech I use alot, i hit a guy in the leg from 800m away and watched him limp, and then fall, and the basically crawl, he stopped crawling after about a min.

The direct shots from the same gun about 600-900m were 1 shot kills.

For other weapons the 7.62 is usually 2 shots and their down, the 5.56 its a 2-4 shots, for grenades and GL's I use:

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=21785

It has fragmentation blast in there, which seriously ups the realism of the damage, it will kill an enemy, or wound him everytime, will even blow him over, But i understand that the vanilla game isn't doing these things, so in the meantime this fixes it for me.

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Yeah, but it should be in vanilla version of the game.

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We are two, Wiki

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?169947-Enemies-have-more-quot-life-quot-after-last-update

But you are more angry :D(and with all reason)

  ProGamer said:
Rather than make a bunch of bandaids for the problem, I would prefer waiting for a proper complex medical system which would likely include a better damage system.

The hp health system must die!

The body armor also has to be improved to not make the entire player protected. And body armor could make use of proper penetration and armor plates.

You're right, but IF a medical system will be implemented, and WHEN. Meanwhile, is frustrating.

Edited by Armilio

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What needs to be done is make bodyarmor functional. IE, add rifle and other bulletproof materials as rvmats, and use the native penetration system to simulate materials penetration on these materials instead of a mathematical modifier as is used now.

RE locking the enemy: not true. He will follow you only if he gets consistent updates. If you roll into cover and immediately stop, the enemy turret will continue to rotate along to where he predicts you will be. If you do not reappear, he will begin to scan elsewhere, however, if you return into view (even behind him) he will often immediately spot you again. The system is not as broken as people make it out to be, but it also is not quite perfect yet either.

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:mad:

All this is very annoying. I do not play before this fix. BI should talk about their plans. Writing a roadmap (on this issue). This is disrespectful to the players. If they are so weak to and can not do normal body armor, system of treatment and normal divided into zones of body .... - What the heck, they can not add the simple things? I'm talking about lameness, loss of consciousness, the effect of injury and pain ... Tired of this kindergarten.

BI!!!!

WRITE Roadmap!!!!!!!!!!

How long to wait FINISHED PRODUCT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Kirill

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I had a new player complaining to me about this today, something about 50cal's and soldiers shrugging them off at 1200m.

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If I have my say, i think a good body armor is not simply - like it is now - add more "life". Life it was enough. But add "life" (or positive multiplier) against weapon like pistol or fragments simply cannot penetrate any body armor, and decrease life (or negative multiplier) against Assault rifle and sniper/DM rifle. So I can KO an enemy with 1-2 shoot in the chest with a assault rifle; instead of pistols, bullets of assault rifle out of max-range and fragments, hitting the soldier but not KO the soldier, because don't penetrate body armor. With the exception of facial headshot off course. Must be like... tank-armour should be: some things penetrate and do serious damage, other things don't penetrate and do superficial (or temporary) damage, or hit and "disable" crawler/arm/leg.

This system with a medic/wound system, would be amazing. Not perfect, but very good and simple (i think).

Anyway, if is impossible, back to the old system, please!

Edited by Armilio

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