Priority of Bugfixing and features of BIS

[roshnak 41]

Now, if BI were to actually hire a community manager, who's job it would be to police the forums answering said questions, then I'd have nothing against that. But the devs should continue to do what they do now - answering threads when they peak their interest, rather than giving in to demands of the vocal and having to spend endless hours in the forums.

Hmm, it seems like that was just the sort of thing I suggested in my second reply to this thread. All you've done is accuse people of whining. Or not being "developer types" when they in fact are. Or discount people's opinions because their regdate isn't as old as yours. Why do you continue to bring personal attacks into a discussion where people are making rational and logical arguments about BIS's customer service? No one has said "I hate BIS" or "Arma is a bad game." I'm sorry if not everyone feels the same level of unfailing loyalty to a business that you do.

Wanting a pretty good game to be better does not make us "whiners." Neither does making polite inquiries into the state of development. Or wanting a company that markets their game based on the strengths of it's modding capability to document their own engine and release their own tools without requiring the community to do it for them. Or wondering if features that were promised years ago and never mentioned again were cut or simply delayed.

BIS is a pretty good company, and Arma 3 is a pretty good game, but neither is perfect, and I'm sorry if some people wanting them to be better upsets you.

Edit:

My thoughts too. People love double standards.

What double standard, specifically, are you referring to?

Edited November 18, 2013 by roshnak

[iceman77 18]

And, yes, I'm angry. I'm angry because this development studio is one of the best and most open I've ever seen for a game (outside of 1-man indie teams who have to be so open to get funding, and even then BI beats a lot of those hands-down), and all a large part of the community can do is bitch and moan that they aren't perfectly, in some idealized sense of the word, open, or that their small dev studio can't deliver a AAA-quality game for 1/500th the cost of an actual AAA-quality game with every possible feature of simulated reality every forum-goer could think up over the last year and make a ticket for.

Entitlement and completely unrealistic expectations. People can't just appreciate the amazing game and studio they have, because they want the connection of a 3-man indie team with the results of a $1-billion corporate studio.

My thoughts too. People love double standards.

[chiefboatsret 14]

I have already received my money back in entertainment time that I have had in the game so far. Burgers ,fries and a couple of beers would have cost me more and have been long gone. The expectations of some for the price of a video game is so out of wack as to be truly funny. You pays your money and takes your chances because the perfect video game has yet to be made, Chalk it up, wipe the tears and move on.

Edited November 18, 2013 by SeaTrane

[-Coulum- 35]

I already have already received my money back in entertainment time that I have had in the game so far. Burgers ,fries and a couple of beers would have cost me more and have been long gone. The expectations of some for the price of a video game is so out of wack as to be truly funny. You pays your money and takes your chances because the perfect video game has yet to be made, Chalk it up, wipe the tears and move on.

Definitely agree. Despite flaws or not meeting my high expectations or whatever your personal gripe with the game, for me its payed off what it cost already. I mean I would much rather have arma 3 than watch a bunch of movies or what not.

The "I am a paying customer" really doesn't make sense to me. No you are not. You are a customer that has payed - you are not paying. You paid, you got what you paid for and though you can be disappointed with your purchase, BIS certainly does not owe you anything. Period. We are really lucky to have such dedicated devs that put so much post release effort in. And despite what people say, they do not ignore community feed back, its just as the project expands and the engine ages it gets harder to quickly implement features while keeping within the quality standards (at least that's the impression I get).

[.kju 3245]

DM always does such posts. He feels entitled working for VBS.

However he lost touch with arma gaming and modding a long time ago. Just ignore him.

[dm 9]

All you've done is accuse people of whining. Or not being "developer types" when they in fact are.

Working in IT does not make you a game developer. Nor does it give you the understanding of the engine to comment on what is "simple" to fix or not...

unfailing loyalty to a business that you do.

I couldn't give a shit about the business. Its the people in it that I care about.

I'm sorry if some people wanting them to be better upsets you.

Again, the people within the company are already the best. The only way they will get better is by expanding, not by spending half their already limited and precious time answering threads like this in the forums.

;2559351']He feels entitled

;2559351']working for

Hmm, yes. Better than being fired after what, 10 mins working on Rearmed for BI? :)

[maddogx 13]

Let's not drag our personal dirty laundry into this thread, guys.

[windies 11]

It couldn't be any worse than the general shit flinging that goes on without much said about it.

[dnk 13]

tl;dr:

Follow the links.

"Community manager" = "wall of marketing jackass" that will further widen the supposed gap between community and dev team.

Devs aren't going to hang themselves, especially when modders are claiming to want to leave the series (that they've kept afloat) over some issue.

Campaing > minor bugs.

;2558860']DNK the series only survived because of modding.

The modding community expects and deserves keep being informed.

Otherwise people will just leave - bad strategy for the company..

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?149636-Development-Branch-Changelog

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?166815-PhysX-Discussion-%28dev-branch%29

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?152866-General-Discussion-%28dev-branch%29

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?167405-Campaign-Episode-1-SURVIVE-Feedback-thread-**-SPOILER-WARNING!-**

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?159710-AI-Discussion-%28dev-branch%29

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?160330-Scripting-Discussion-%28dev-branch%29

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?168240-Fatigue-Feedback-%28dev-branch%29

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?154605-Audio-Tweaking-%28dev-branch%29

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?153773-Lighting-Tweaking-%28dev-branch%29

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?147788-SITREPs

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?151644-SPOTREPs

http://forums.bistudio.com/search.php?searchid=1640689 (search: posts: Dwarden)

http://forums.bistudio.com/search.php?searchid=1640693 (search: posts: pettka)

http://forums.bistudio.com/search.php?searchid=1640703 (search: posts: klamacz)

And I'm tired of linking further. It's never enough. I see devs in the addon/scripting/editing/user missions forums making posts on and off in their free time. That's not enough. Is it just this 1 issue - Java support? I get that it would make things easier (certainly I may not be expert in it' date=' but I am well aware of the difficulty of using .sqf at times through less deep yet no-less intense modding). How this becomes a reason to turn people off from the series or claim all sorts of negative things about the devs is beyond me. How all this isn't sufficient for modders to be satisfied is beyond me. As a casual modder, I'm completely and utterly satisfied by all documentation, tools, and ongoing communication the devs have given and continue to give over the years I've been playing, scenario creating (almost solely for personal use, as is the case with many 'modders' who never bother to release their work or contribute much on the forums), and lightly modding the game. It is all so, so, so much better than what I've seen for basically every other game I've worked with.

So, where is it modders have it so much better in FPS land, what community has both this level of dev support [i']and[/i] this sort of milsim community? I can name a few of the latter, none of the former, and certainly none with both. Certainly, certainly none with all that and anything approaching the openness and scope of the Arma sandbox.

****

You guys know what a "community manager" is going to be? A marketing professional, who is never going to commit to anything, because they know better. You're going to get a bunch of non-answers and "smoke and mirrors", you're then going to claim that the devs are even less engaged because they've hired some **marketing jackass** (to be pronounced with tones of utter disgust) to interface with the community and have retreated behind this wall of marketing - they'll have gone all "corporate"... You will gain nothing and lose more of your beloved dev interaction, that's all. Not to mention hiring 1 community manager replaces 1 dev (perhaps 2/3rds of a dev only). All things have a cost here...

And so what do you want the devs to say about Java? You basically want them to 'fess up that they've scrapped it for the time being, put it on a backburner for a much later date if at all, and then give you the rope to hang them with. Then you'll run around and claim they deceived you or don't care enough about you, the beloved modders who, you know, are the reason the series still exists. Then you'll stomp the ground and say they clearly don't want your talents in their modding community and run off to some other game, leaving them destitute because we modders made you.

If that sounds like a really insidious take on your position, then I suppose I've conveyed my opinion of that position quite well. Those may not be how some like to see themselves, certainly not the language they would use to portray themselves, but that's how it comes off all the same.

And there's the other rub - that serious modding teams/individuals are going to up and quit over perceived slights and a lack of total recognition of their amazing contributions. Undying community support for their work and achievement isn't enough, they need the devs to jump for 'em when they snap their fingers over X issue.

And let my words not be taken to mean I do not respect and am not very grateful for what gifts these very same modders have given me and the community, or even to say I don't at least partially sympathize with some frustration, but the attitudes and literal statements of many in this and other similar threads current and past just leave such a bitter taste in one's mouth. Thankfully, many of the favorite community modders are not so turned off, and many great gifts continue to be given to the community.

I agree with the OP here. I honestly think BI should completely stop campaign/DLC development if needed, just to fix some critical things like object collision (ie. indoors), movement, animations clipping through things, being able to switch weapons while moving (instead of requiring a mod to do it), possibly put more furniture in houses, etc.

And how many people would then complain about BI not delivering on their campaign promise? Also, why can't they do both? As has been mentioned a bit, individuals on the dev team will specialize most likely, and there's no reason they can't both bugfix and handle new content creation without seriously deleteriously impacting each other.

Campaign, promised months ago, takes priority for the vast majority of users, I would bet. I'd like those bugs to be fixed (save switching on the move), but priorities...

Edited November 18, 2013 by DNK

[gagagu 21]

- no dedicated windows server

- no decicated linux server

- many performance issues in multiplayer

- less content (i mean vehicles like planes, tanks and many many other stuff) compared with arma 2

BI has made a really great game with Arma3 but i think they don't really use the maximum they can get out of this game. I've been checking the dev log every day since month and i alway think "nice, but do i really need it?".

Where would Arma 3 be if you can get over 100 players on one server? Can play is without performance issues on client and with big content of vehicles, buildings and other stuff. What kind missions would be possible then?

The really necessary changes are taken too long!

Edited November 18, 2013 by gagagu

[chortles 263]

You guys know what a "community manager" is going to be? A marketing professional, who is never going to commit to anything, because they know better.

The funny thing is, after that "discussion of axed features" thread, the devs have already learned this lesson.

[jaemn 10]

Is it just this 1 issue - Java support?

The issue isn't the lack of Java support. Java support was never going to be possible to implement properly, without an enormous stretch of time during which the developers would be able to focus on little else. I have no idea why they promised Java, when something such as Lua would have been vastly easier to embed.

The issue was promising it, and then not saying anything after failing to release it.

A marketing professional, who is never going to commit to anything

This is exactly what BI should be doing. They shouldn't state that a feature is going to be in, unless it's so close to being finished that its implementation is a certainty. A bunch of vague, noncommittal answers is absolutely preferable to saying a feature is going to be in, failing to put that feature in, and then saying nothing about it afterwards. Edited November 18, 2013 by jaemn

[papanowel 120]

- no dedicated windows server

Check your Arma3 directory...

[gagagu 21]

Check your Arma3 directory...

I know what you mean but its not what i mean. Try to install a server without steam or steamcmd.

A dedicated windows server is a game client without unneeded files (like sound or graphics, its really smaller) and a server.exe

But a windows server is not a main issue from arma 3.

[L3TUC3 32]

This is exactly what BI should be doing. They shouldn't state that a feature is going to be in, unless it's so close to being finished that its implementation is a certainty. A bunch of vague, noncommittal answers is absolutely preferable to saying a feature is going to be in, failing to put that feature in, and then saying nothing about it afterwards.

The bolded part is what they're doing now after all the complaints. A lesson learned from being optimistic around fans. Guess nobody won in the end.

[dnk 13]

The really necessary changes are taken too long!

The changes always take a long time, though, precisely because this is a fairly small company taking on a very large and ambitious task (the games). They made $6 million in 2009 on the Arma series in revenue... AAAs make like $6 million a day around releases. Now compare the end products of DICE/Ubi/etc to Arma 3... Arma 3 is actually way more ambitious, large-scale, and complex than BF or CoD.

Can we come to understand why all these features are not included, or scrapped, or why bugs take a long time to fix, or why there's no 64-bit engine yet, or why it's not "multithreaded' enough yet, or why assets are having to trickle in over many months instead of a flood at release, or why some performance issues linger for some players in some instances after months of development?

resources / tasks

I'd love more features, better netcoding for the 100+ player servers. But one must have excessive patience given the situation we, the fans, are in here.

[krazikilla 5]

Sooo, days passed, new Updates, new SITREP and still:

No word about any of the highly requested features from the feedbacktracker.

Instead we get new vehicles, and a lot of other nice fixes, which most of them, around 90% of the players dont even realize.

For me, after the update the only things i really realized, was less fps for some reason. But that just counts for me.

Anyway, i think we can clearly see that the artists and 3d modellers are doing a good job and we can see lot of fixes in that area, every day. Its for sure also nice that the "wrong direction of rain particles" and the T100 geometry got polished - BUT what are the engine coders doing? Are they really all working for dayZ or tweaking fatigue (which is more scripting/customizing i believe)?

Please BIS (especially Arma - Project Lead), listen to the community and check out the feedbacktracker a bit.

Or, at least, tell us a little bit what the schedule is.., if we can await any new featuers in vanilla game, or if u just focus on easing the way for addons.

[apankhurst 10]

I'd be happy if they just fixed the hard crash bugs like DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_REMOVED... I haven't been able to complete any campaign or user mission since the full release because of this

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=579#c60065

[spanishsurfer 58]

Agree with the original poster...Why BIS does not even attempt to implement some of the top voted features is beyond me. I too check the dev changelog daily in hopes that I'll see a new addition and most of the time i'm disappointed.

What's the point of having a voting system if you're not even going to attempt to fix/implement 1 of the top 10 in a timely manner? Another thing I don't understand is how mods are created so quickly to implement some of these features, like weapon resting.

How BIS prioritizes things is a very strange thing.

[Greenfist 1863]

What's the point of having a voting system if you're not even going to attempt to fix/implement 1 of the top 10 in a timely manner? Another thing I don't understand is how mods are created so quickly to implement some of these features, like weapon resting.

The voting is there to make the big bugs stand out, not because of democracy.

[ratszo 17]

I just watch the change-logs. The work thru-put is impressive seeing the daily builds come like clockwork.

Amazing what a steady diet of pilsner & pretzels can achieve.

[chortles 263]

At least one dev has said that they're not using the 'workarounds' that modders are using to implement these features, i.e. scripting, due to a preference for features to be in-engine, so we have that much of an answer for why they're not doing what modders are doing, because the preferred method is something that modders can't do. As for why the features in question aren't in-engine, well... mum's the word.

[Opticalsnare 12]

Imo i think the game has been dumped not entirely but left to a skeleton crew, and most of the coders have moved onto proberly getting dayz out the door. Once that has been released then perhaps you may see some more progress on the higher priority requests but if the main core team have gone over to dayz to get that released then BI arnt going to pull resources or people off that because there isnt any money in completing requested features or fixing minor issues, there is however money to be made by releasing a new product which was highly popular.

Imo it was like they wanted A3 out the way so they could work on DayZ insted.

[ratszo 17]

Imo i think the game has been dumped not entirely but left to a skeleton crew, and most of the coders have moved onto proberly getting dayz out the door. Once that has been released then perhaps you may see some more progress on the higher priority requests but if the main core team have gone over to dayz to get that released then BI arnt going to pull resources or people off that because there isnt any money in completing requested features or fixing minor issues, there is however money to be made by releasing a new product which was highly popular.

Imo it was like they wanted A3 out the way so they could work on DayZ insted.

I heard the entire DayZ SA crew has disappeared into the flesh-pots of Bangkok.

Rumor has it, Dwarden is ready, at a moment's notice, to fly there and rescue them.

Soi Cowboy was the last place anyone was seen.

Pics: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Soi+Cowboy&qpvt=Soi+Cowboy&FORM=IGRE

Edited November 27, 2013 by Ratszo
pics

[james2464 177]

I heard the entire DayZ SA crew has disappeared into the flesh-pots of Bangkok.

Rumor has it, Dwarden is ready, at a moment's notice, to fly there and rescue them.

Soi Cowboy was the last place anyone was seen.

Pics: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Soi+Cowboy&qpvt=Soi+Cowboy&FORM=IGRE

Haha! :)