So ArmA3 gave us a reason to go in the water.. Now I am thinking, Epic Naval Warfare

[ledhead900 10]

Just as the title spells out clearly.

We have this beautiful if somewhat lacking in content diving system which gives us the opportunity to " dive dive dive" and go for searching for sweet ship wrecks. So now I am thinking with all of this in place and all the great content top side that be used for warfare. The aspect ArmA has always been without is the Navy.

So I am thinking would it not be great to one day see an expansion pack that added Naval combat to the already great land and air combat. I truly think it would be the icing on what is ArmA.. Games today have seemed to all forget about naval combat, with the likes of Battlefield ditching the the naval combat ever since battlefield 2 I have yet to see a game fully provide a proper naval system.

ArmA3 has everything you could want in a military sim it has a great community " you guys" very helpful..., it has Air and Land all realistic it even now has drones and scuba diving, and so much more is possible with the community making new content and adding even more great stuff to the game.

The one thing that stands out now to me at least is the lack of being able to realize my dream of being in a fleet and getting attacked by submarines while at the same time everyone is running around on deck. I know they have that carrier which needs to spawned in but I would love to see fleshed out.

How about you guys?

[tinter 186]

I've seen a bunch of mods in development adding ships and I'm actively following them. I've thought for a long while that the naval aspect in Arma 3 felt a bit lacking.

[ledhead900 10]

I am unaware of any such mods like that.. I am fairly new to the community because upuntil now ArmA ran like so bad, I finally got around to building a new machine runs great now.

[[evo] dan 79]

FFAA mod, Swedish Armed Forces, German Forces mod, all contain some ships, and there are a few standalone ones too.

However, the biggest drawback so far to this idea is the lack of walkable decks functionality built into the game.

[Beagle 684]

For epic naval warfare try any Naval combat game...they are few but everything else is definately better suited for naval combat.

[chortles 263]

Ehhh... I'm pessimistic about BI ever officially going the route that you're looking at, for three reasons:

1: I rather suspect that any mod that serves this desire is actually a disincentive against BI ever doing so officially... just look at pettka's attitude in my sig re: "ACRE-style VOIP".

2: The "infantry focus" talk by RiE seems to have borne itself out in just how the pre-September 12 content releases were handled -- infantry and light vehicles (including armed speedboats) at first beta, then some heavier ground vehicles, heavier rotor-wings and the (unarmed though laser designation-capable) SDV in beta all the way through release on stable branch, while on dev branch you had UAVs in mid-August, then Altis less than two weeks later, but the MBTs, SPA (self-propelled artillery), static weapons, wheeled APC, tracked IFV AA, MLRS, tracked combat engineering/recovery vehicle (CRV), jet, unarmed civilian vehicle variants (including more unarmed boats) and so on were only released just over a week before the launch... sure, the latter were in development well before that (September 4th) but notice the conspicuous lack of any armed surface watercraft in the aforementioned list after the initial alpha... at this time, there's been no information from BI regarding "naval combat" as you seem to be thinking of it, and I don't believe that "large ships" have even been mentioned by the devs. Considering prior comments alluding to dev views about the "scope" of Arma... I'd dare suggest that what they have in mind for Arma is... frankly, smaller than modern naval combat ranges. For example, a surface-launched Harpoon missile's publicly reported range is already larger than any official Arma 3 map/terrain that isn't Altis...

3: To add to that bit about BI not mentioning "large scale" naval combat in Arma 3, there's also been seemingly no intentional attention paid to what I've jokingly dubbed "the Holy Grail of Arma warships": driveability (of large warships), walkability and "landability"/"takeoffability" while the ship is in motion, none of which have been overtly addressed by BI, much less BI providing documentation to help modders on these fronts. In the case of the former, there's also the issue of maximum model size in Arma 2, which is why some warships mods are essentially done up as static objects -- because they're actually multiple models stitched together, and it'd be hell trying to keep them moving in sync as if they were collectively one object in single-player, much less multiplayer...

If anything, what passes for surface combat in Arma 2 (insofar as the use of USS Khe Sanh) and Arma 3 is actually broadly consistent with Battlefield 2, Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4. Without "the large warships", there isn't much incentive to throw in large submarines that can actually move, much less launch torpedoes, either... as opposed to just being a static prop, i.e. in hypothetical cutscenes where a SDV debarks from a submarine-mounted Dry Deck Shelter, while Khe Sanh in Arma 2 was outright part of the Utes map, but even then it's got no functionality or interactivity in and of itself...

There's actually a notable number of "large warship" mods in Arma 2, but none have officially been ported to Arma 3 -- although of course there's All in Arma, I can't guarantee the results of using it with those warship mods -- and to my knowledge there's only two Arma 3-native mods already released (unlike FFAA 6.0 or German Armed Forces mod) with warships:

• Swedish Forces Pack was previously mentioned, but more specifically it has HMS Norrköping, lead ship of her class of fast attack craft/missile boats (apparently they started as torpedo boats, but the listed 530 mm torpedo tubes are not represented in-game; I do not know if the real-life version had them removed as part of the conversion), whose anti-ship/land attack missile and long-range radar capabilities are represented through an "artillery computer"-reminiscent GUI interface used exclusively from the Weapon System Officer (typo?) seat.
  
• USS Independence (LCS 2) is a modder-admitted "technological demonstrator"; although it has a forward gun turret and an aft-facing anti-air missile launcher turret, its main raison d'etre was as a testbed for the very "walkable decks functionality" that [EVO] Dan has described as lacking, although as Gnat mentioned in that thread there was some degree of ability to land a helicopter onto it just fine, and even drive around on a wheeled vehicle with mixed results...

maturin explains one of the most fundamental underlying issues with "epic naval warfare" in the post below this.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Chortles

[maturin 12]

There is no such thing as epic naval combat outside of Battlefield 4 and WW2. There is only sitting in a dark room with strange lighting and watching blips on the radar get closer. All the seaspace in Altis is enough room for an engagement between two tiny patrol boats.

Edit: And an in-depth sim of naval combat on an epic scale just got a release date. The price? Around 90 euros. And the UI and graphics of the game look like a modded version of Microsoft Excel. That should give you an idea of how appallingly complicated it is.

[Variable 322]

There is no such thing as epic naval combat outside of Battlefield 4 and WW2. There is only sitting in a dark room with strange lighting and watching blips on the radar get closer. All the seaspace in Altis is enough room for an engagement between two tiny patrol boats.

Edit: And an in-depth sim of naval combat on an epic scale just got a release date. The price? Around 90 euros. And the UI and graphics of the game look like a modded version of Microsoft Excel. That should give you an idea of how appallingly complicated it is.

This.

Naval warfare is too digital, far ranged, and time extended to ever be represented in an Arma game.

[[evo] dan 79]

This.

Naval warfare is too digital, far ranged, and time extended to ever be represented in an Arma game.

Amphib assault units would be worth it though I think, rather than large scale naval battles in blue waters.

[chortles 263]

Funny thing re: the Battlefield 4 reference: this (specifically the "Tomahawk Missile") -- and it being represented as

is the closest that that game gets to representing "larger than tiny patrol boats" in gameplay beyond just "arena for infantry to fight on".

This.

Naval warfare is too digital, far ranged, and time extended to ever be represented in an Arma game.

I wouldn't say too digital... "far ranged" and "time extended" are more on the mark though, considering the Arma series' standing -- and officially reaffirmed* -- focus on ground forces and support thereof. In light of what [EVO] Dan has said about amphibious operations "rather than large scale naval battles in blue waters" though, I'll try this: As far as scale goes, Arma is a brown-water navy game, maybe "green-water navy" at best (depending on one's definition of that term) despite being able to shoehorn "blue-water navy" assets (such as the Nimitz class) in.

I'm not going to pretend that I'm NOT a fan of "more naval content" in Arma, but even I recognize that "a proper naval system" isn't going to both fit within the scale of Arma and be realistic -- not without a dramatic expansion of scale (with Altis-sized maps being the norm -- or on the small side -- and instead of being the largest-in-the-series exception) that would also impact game performance even more than we already have with Altis.

* See RiE's talk about what he and DnA meant by "infantry focus" talk.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Chortles

[[evo] dan 79]

I'm not going to pretend that I'm NOT a fan of "more naval content" in Arma, but even I recognize that "a proper naval system" isn't going to both fit within the scale of Arma and be realistic -- not without a dramatic expansion of scale (with Altis-sized maps being the norm -- or on the small side -- and instead of being the largest-in-the-series exception) that would also impact game performance even more than we already have with Altis.

^this essentially. I don't even think BIS should bother even with amhpib forces (basically, some landing craft, and lhd, lpd, maybe something for fire support) until they:

a) Get physx to a state where we can have walkable and driveable decks on moving vehicles.

b) Stick Altis and Stratis on the same map, with a proportioned distance between them (its 30km irl, so given altis is 2/3 scale, make it a 20km gap)

c) Do it as an expansion pack, have it focus on an amphib op in the pacfic, and then just add the altis + stratis map perhaps as a freebie with it.

d) Increase allowable model size to 200m ish

However, I am working on some models for ships, so I wouldn't mind at all if they just improved physx for now and left it to the modders until they can get around to doing a proper expansion pack.

Edited October 4, 2013 by [EVO] Dan

[[aps]gnat 28]

... when the tools come out ....

(ArmA2 \/ )

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

This.

Naval warfare is too digital, far ranged, and time extended to ever be represented in an Arma game.

You and maturin are both, not thinking broad enough. Lets pitch a bit on the Battlefield 4 side for a second. Those patrol boats are outstanding, i know as far from the BETA. But besides that point, the Speedboat's in Arma 3 are nothing. They are like the Armed Off Road compared to what is possible. Why not make an Armored Patrol Boat with a Titan, AT/AA capabilities, and a main cannon. Maybe 30 MM? That would change a huge aspect of the way Naval assets are looked about. I've spent time in Speedboats, and yeah, you can cover the coast nicely, getting rid of infinity, until an enemy attack chopper showed up. A more armored ship would be amazing.

[Variable 322]

You and maturin are both, not thinking broad enough. Lets pitch a bit on the Battlefield 4 side for a second. Those patrol boats are outstanding, i know as far from the BETA. But besides that point, the Speedboat's in Arma 3 are nothing. They are like the Armed Off Road compared to what is possible. Why not make an Armored Patrol Boat with a Titan, AT/AA capabilities, and a main cannon. Maybe 30 MM? That would change a huge aspect of the way Naval assets are looked about. I've spent time in Speedboats, and yeah, you can cover the coast nicely, getting rid of infinity, until an enemy attack chopper showed up. A more armored ship would be amazing.

You already have speedboats in the game, that's not quite what's this discussion is about. Sure the current boats can be improved, but that's not quite constitutes as naval warfare involving battleships, missile boats and submarines, which this discussion is about.

[iceman77 18]

For epic naval warfare try any Naval combat game...they are few but everything else is definately better suited for naval combat.

To be fair though Beagle, that can be said for other aspects of the game aswell. IE; Pure armor || Air simulations provide a much better experience than what Arma offers in those aspects. I think it would be nice to give the navys a little love.

My 2c.

This.

Naval warfare is too digital, far ranged, and time extended to ever be represented in an Arma game.

See Gnats A2 pics.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

You already have speedboats in the game, that's not quite what's this discussion is about. Sure the current boats can be improved, but that's not quite constitutes as naval warfare involving battleships, missile boats and submarines, which this discussion is about.

Maybe i was too vague. Now in terms of the speed boats, as i said were comparable to the Rebel Off road 50. cal to a BTR-Kamysh, and what is possible. The speed boat should not be improved upon, what i am thinking, is say, a Larger boat. Like a Naval Patrol boat with multiple armed capabilities. Say, a small patrol ship with AA and cannons, but, can hold one medium, or light rotary craft on the back. Or maybe it doesn't even have to be that serious, but it is a housed ship, meaning, there is an Interior. Something like the Battlefield 4 Attack boats, but bigger. With personal carrying, and defense capabilities.

[[evo] dan 79]

Since we have some Israeli equipment, then why not add the Super Dovora patrol boats, they are still being built today too.

[Variable 322]

See Gnats A2 pics.

Lovely pics but as far as naval weaponry is concerned what are we aiming for here?

Those subs have TMA? Torpedo programs? Those ships have radars? EW equipment? surface attack missiles with hundreds of miles range? It's not naval warfare if it doesn't have these aspects, and I don't see how this is fitting Arma at all.

[MissionCreep 12]

Realistically speaking, there hasn't been a large-scale naval engagement in open water in over 70 years. Long range strike aircraft and long-range guided missiles have made them irrelevant. Small scale naval operations continue ... carrier-based airstrike, anti-piracy, hostage rescue, anti-smuggling, infiltration, counter-infiltration and anti-human trafficking operations are what preoccupies a lot of real navies in the real world these days. I think a few walkable open water drilling platforms would be a great addition to Arma III. A war of the future would probably include the seizure of drilling platforms. Submarine cat-and-mouse games and counter submarine warfare would also be another type of mission.

Edited October 5, 2013 by MissionCreep

[GottyPlays 10]

Why the hell he did get a warning?

however i agree with op, i expect a huge dlc with naval warfare! hell there is even a huge hole in the middle of altis..it would be cool to fill it wit big army boats...right now we have only 2 types :/

oh and i don't actually care for mods, i want only bi stuff :)

[mazza 1]

Why the hell he did get a warning?

yes what is warning tag for? never seen it before

[[aps]gnat 28]

oh and i don't actually care for mods, i want only bi stuff :)

LOL .... well you're going to be bitterly disappointed very quickly.

BI don't do non-standard stuff like working carriers and naval mods

[chortles 263]

Dan;2525991']Since we have some Israeli equipment' date=' then why not add the Super Dovora patrol boats, they are still being built today too.[/quote']Admittedly I see them as essentially in a similar vein relative to the BF4 boats -- just "twice the size" -- but it seems that they would be similarly armed... I can't find consistent information to this effect, but based on them apparently using the M242 Bushmaster chain gun with the Typhoon RWS (aka the MK 38 MOD 2 Machine Gun System when combined) we can presume an effective range of 3 km - 6.8 km.

Lovely pics but as far as naval weaponry is concerned what are we aiming for here?

Those subs have TMA? Torpedo programs? Those ships have radars? EW equipment? surface attack missiles with hundreds of miles range? It's not naval warfare if it doesn't have these aspects, and I don't see how this is fitting Arma at all.

Err, stuff like TMA (no idea what you mean by "torpedo programs" here), radars, EW equipment can be modded/scripted in "faux simulation"... it's only the sheer scale, i.e. the "hundreds of miles" range, that's immutable.

Maybe i was too vague. Now in terms of the speed boats, as i said were comparable to the Rebel Off road 50. cal to a BTR-Kamysh, and what is possible. The speed boat should not be improved upon, what i am thinking, is say, a Larger boat. Like a Naval Patrol boat with multiple armed capabilities. Say, a small patrol ship with AA and cannons, but, can hold one medium, or light rotary craft on the back. Or maybe it doesn't even have to be that serious, but it is a housed ship, meaning, there is an Interior. Something like the Battlefield 4 Attack boats, but bigger. With personal carrying, and defense capabilities.

The thing is, a ship that's large enough to hold even a light rotary craft on the back is already at the high end of what Arma can realistically simulate within its limited scale without being "artillery computer 24/7" or Mando Missile Arma:

(As a bonus, an early version of the GUI from the first two videos applied to "the backseater in a fighter jet":

)

Or this, from the 41.5-meters-long Norrköping FAC/missile boat in Swedish Forces Pack:

Battlefield 4 on the other hand? Both of its "attack boats" are right about 16 meters -- compared to the 120+ meter frigates, or the 110 meter Los Angeles and Akula-class and 167 meter Delta IV-class submarines all on the prior page from Gnat's frigates and submarines packs -- with the CB90 (real-life counterpart of the RCB-90) having .50-cal/12.7 mm HMGs and a Mk 19 GMG -- although a Norwegian CB90 ("SB90N") had a MG replaced with a stabilized Hellfire missile launcher for evaluation purposes -- while the DV15 RWS30 (real-life counterpart to the DV-15) uses a 30mm chain gun, which Navy Recognition identifies as being the M230LF ("Link Fed") modernized version of the Apache's 30 mm gun, so we're presumably looking at only the same range as the Apache helicopter. Even allowing for the ATGM Launcher and TOW Missile specializations, you'd still be looking at a TOW missile maximum range of under 5 km, while the reputed ranges on several PLA ATGMs are only somewhat higher than that, i.e. 6 - 7 km. In contrast, the effective range on the aforementioned Independence (LCS 2) main gun is a whopping 8.5 km, and the Swedish Forces Pack's Norrköping has an earlier predecessor to that gun so one can expect a similar range... to say nothing of its RBS-15 ("RB-15") missiles with ranges exceeding 70 km.

TL;DR: You basically aren't going to have realistic "big ship" combat (where big ships means "100+ meter long") on maps as small as those of Arma, simply because so many weapons have "extreme" ranges by Arma standards... and in the case of the Tomahawk missile, longer than every official Arma map combined.

Realistically speaking, there hasn't been a large-scale naval engagement in open water in over 70 years. Long range strike aircraft and long-range guided missiles have made them irrelevant. Small scale naval operations continue ... carrier-based airstrike, anti-piracy, hostage rescue, anti-smuggling, infiltration, counter-infiltration and anti-human trafficking operations are what preoccupies a lot of real navies in the real world these days. I think a few walkable open water drilling platforms would be a great addition to Arma III. A war of the future would probably include the seizure of drilling platforms. Submarine cat-and-mouse games and counter submarine warfare would also be another type of mission.

The thing is, a bunch of the missions that you describe are already "rather long range" for Arma's scale, including "counter submarine warfare", although I agree that "walkable open water drilling platforms" would be intriguing terrains or objects/locations therein.

Thing is, submarines' own attack options are smack-dab in "big ship" territory. For example, the Los Angeles-class' torpedo range I've seen pegged at anywhere from 31 to 40 km depending on speed, or for the ADCAP variant 39 to 50 km depending on speed... and that's just the torpedoes, not including the Harpoons and Tomahawks with their respective ranges exceeding 140 and 1200 km respectively! (Yes, a Tomahawk's range > every official Arma/OFP: CWC/R map combined.)

Gnat;2526389']LOL .... well you're going to be bitterly disappointed very quickly.

BI don't do non-standard stuff like working carriers and naval mods

Pretty much this is what I was alluding to by the talk of "Arma's scale" (as the Arma 3 devs-in-charge perceive it, at least).

[ledhead900 10]

I would essentially be happy enough just to see carrier with a couple of sea to land ability ships just something to spice up the water side, give reason to taking that sub out there and lastly something other than land to fly a plane off. Without the ability the walk on deck while the ships moves I suppose we would be limited too static ships in which case I can see everybody's point on BI not bothering to do make such a thing and a mod would easily suffice that.

[mistyronin 1181]

IMO in Arma series, naval warfare should be developed as support to ground units: artillery and amphibious platform ( hovercrafts and landing crafts ), carrier to deploy CAS and submarines to send spec ops and to torpedo other ships.

As said before actual naval battles took place at dozens or even hundreds of kms, basically missile fights. Though some submarine hunting with a chopper could be funny.