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"Opening up Arma 3 to paid user-made content" - How?

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Good post @ Tonic

Paid modding actually opens the doors for people like Kju to mod, do what they love and sustain a income to be able to do it.

You don't have an income just because you can sell your mods on steam workshop. For that it would need a completly different approach.

I know me agreeing with paid mods is totally out of character for me but yeah.

I think it legitimate to think like this.

I don't get why people are getting all hot and bothered by trivial things such as "Oh modding is dead, we'll have to pay for everything, blah blah blah". Modding it's self won't be dead because there are people out there that truly do it as a hobby and expect / want nothing more from it so there will always be good free mods out there.

Exactly, example xcam from silola, perfect working documented 3deditor for FREE ( i would pay for that 30€ withough questioning, same as i do with mikero tools).

The fact is, at the moment the system like it is now with the workshop and skyrim won't work flawlessly and by far not with arma. I would never bother to make such and effort to put something in the workshop just to get a few cents.

Edited by Atsche

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While hate mail is the thing, this particular mod came under attack because author used assets from other modders, which wasn't issue untill he put it up for sale, to which they never agreed. Beign cool guy, he realised he did something inappropriate at least, and decided to pull it off from steam, only to learn mod is no longer his property but Valve's.

Well i think he needs a pair of reading glasses then, because even if you dont ask for money, your are giving valve every right there is over your content by uploading it to the workshop

The fact is, at the moment the system like it is now with the workshop and skyrim won't work flawlessly and by far not with arma. I would never bother to make such and effort to put something in the workshop just to get a few cents.

Well i think it's safe to say that we very likely won't see paid modding from other developers anytime soon, after this outrage (valve claims it made 10k profits but cost 1million because of email spam for pissing of the internet). Any sensable dev will propably wait until additional solutions or changes are made...

Edited by Fennek

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"did not read EULA" thing happens way too often.

Or might have beign one of those poor sods who believed Valve will respect EU laws, and then then was brought back on earth by Valve's lawyers.

Theoretically, if modder does not really owns all parts of mod, he cannot legally upload it to workshop effecively making obtaining it by Valve invalid. Practially it doesn't mean much, unless you're willing to go lawsuits aganist Valve, and good luck with that.

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RIP free mods. Monetization will divide the community. There will be accusations, there will be modders hiding "how they did it" from the others, free content being pulled from the web and all sorts of community drama all while the modders are being robbed 75% of the revenue they bring.

The reason ArmA series do so well is because they're sandboxes with nearly unlimited content made over the decade. Its stock content is nothing worth mentioning over the grand scheme of things. If you bring a paywall to this sandbox, you'll just choke out the content in long term. It's poison for the community and the game.

I hope BIS stays out of this.

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This may be a bit odd coming from me but I actually like the idea of paid mods. I myself do it as a hobby and to learn, not once have I ever had the thought of profiting from my own work and to actually do it legally is a cool thing. Modders being able to generate some income from their hard work can actually only ever improve their work. Take Kju for an example, he quit mainly because he could not facilitate the money needed to sustain his life and the only real option was to quit modding. Paid modding actually opens the doors for people like Kju to mod, do what they love and sustain a income to be able to do it.

Modding is a hobby which by definition is something done for enjoyment in a person's free time. It's rare for people to make money from their hobby let alone enough to live off of it. I play amateur football (soccer) for a team in a league in my free time. Football is my hobby and I love it and it would be a dream to live off of it but that idea is a complete fantasy. Some players are good enough to sign for a semi-pro team and earn a little bit of cash on the side but it's nowhere near enough to live off of. The pay they get is a nice little bonus but it is not the main motivator for them playing.

If modding has gotten to the point where it is becoming too time consuming and is getting in the way of life then it might be time to drop it. Will the potential for earning a small amount of cash make it all worth it? Will it increase hours in the day? If modding is something that a person really loves then maybe they should think about a career in the industry.

If paying for mods does become common then maybe a lucky few might be able to earn enough to live from modding one of the more popular games. They would be the exception though, not the rule.

Edited by Snafu

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If modding is something that a person really loves then they maybe they should think about a career in the industry.

I totally agree with that.

Also I cannot imagine how this monetization would work for mission makers. I believe players would find a way how to pirate your missions/addons.

I think that the donation system should be improved.

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If modding has gotten to the point where it is becoming too time consuming and is getting in the way of life then it might be time to drop it. Will the potential for earning a small amount of cash make it all worth it? Will it increase hours in the day? If modding is something that a person really loves then maybe they should think about a career in the industry.

Well, do you want to see high quality content or just some half finished stuff? If yes to the former, then you can't drop something half way through. If you want to get anything done you have to invest alot of time working. You don't play with it, you work to produce something.

Making a living of modding of doesnt sound realistic however, and i don't think the majority would expect that.

If modding is something that a person really loves then they maybe they should think about a career in the industry.

You can't have a job in the industry and do the same things that modders do. Because as modder you can decide on what you work and what you like, extending a game you enjoy. In the industry you work on a new game, and other people tell you what you have to do. Input possible but more often then not you are at the start of the food chain regarding that. Monetary concerns can take over and if the publisher forces you to release early, you have no option, and rease something you know is not good enough.

Edited by Fennek

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@Snafu,Akvadakar

I don't think I've ever met a modder that had it get in the way of their life.

A person can walk to the shop to get a chocolate bar for a few cents.It's tasty,but it's gone pretty quickly.That same person would come home and sit down to play their favourite game and load up their favourite mods.Which they'll get hours,days,weeks or months out of.But they wouldn't consider throwing the same amount to the authors of those mods and addons.Despite the fact they can afford to.

People routinely supplement their meager wage with tips.The patron doesn't have to provide those tips.But they do it anyway most of the time.For various reasons.Tips,donations aren't a bad idea if people actually offer them.

If modders get jobs in the gaming industry they likely won't be modding.Certainly not to the same extent.

The pay they get is a nice little bonus but it is not the main motivator for them playing.

But modders don't get that.Perhaps not the best example.

If modders don't put in a few hours you may not get ANY content.Value has been mentioned a few times previously.Players and other modders alike get plenty of value out of addons and mods.Is that worth 10,20 or 30 cents here and there?

The system Valve is operating is stupid.There's no denying that.

But if nothing else,this debacle should encourage people to actually put a few cents in the tip jar.

It might convince the humble modder to put off watching the TV,or going to the pub.Or trimming their toe-nails.

I don't support what Valve/Bethesda are doing.But I don't think that modders should be denied the possibility of earning some money out of something that requires skill and talent.Whatever the case regarding talent,you certainly can't develop skills without investing time into it.

Edited by Maczer

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i would love to see bis try and embrace this new scheme after saying this

Game content sold after the initial release often fractures the player-base: those who own the content and those who don't.

..

We've made a point of positioning the game as a platform - one that keeps evolving, growing and maturing over time. Anything that splits the playerbase goes against that philosophy, so we're eager to prevent this from happening where we can.

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Well, do you want to see high quality content or just some half finished stuff?

I do not think e.g. ACE 2 (+ new ACE 3) is "half finished stuff".

In the industry you work on a new game, and other people tell you what you have to do.

Indie games.

@Maczer

I think there are (and were) some former modders in the Bohemia Interactive. It sounds like the most viable way how to get new & skilled employees.

Is that worth 10,20 or 30 cents here and there?

These figures seem more like donation than monetization.

Could you use space after punctuation? My eyes are bleeding :D

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You can't have a job in the industry and do the same things that modders do. Because as modder you can decide on what you work and what you like

My sentiment exactly. Mods are often more detailed and polished than commercial product, because modders spend plenty of time for them. They can, because they do that in their free time, so there's they can make their mods all time they want. If they would quit their real-life works and start modding for living, they would have to make their mods cost/time effective to make their living, and once product is finished, move onto another.

I don't support what Valve/Bethesda are doing.But I don't think that modders should be denied the possibility of earning some money out of something that requires skill and talent.Whatever the case regarding talent,you certainly can't develop skills without investing time into it.

You're forcing doors that are already open. It's up to modder if he feels he needs to be paid for his work (as long as game allows it). It's up to players to buy it or not. It's all fair, and all we do is sharing opinions on that, waging pros and cons of such approach, but I think we all agree, in the end it's up to modder

Real issue at hand is to do it without brigning harm to modding community. And what Valve did to Skyrim community is nothing short of cluster bombing

Edited by boota

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You're forcing doors that are already open.

I don't know what that means.Genuinely. :)

You're right about it ultimately being up to the modders though.That's something I've said since I started posting in this thread.In fact I'm not saying anything contrary to what Fennek just said.You can't create decent material without investing time into learning the skills necessary.If people suggest that they spend less time on it,or even leave the scene altogether that's not going to benefit anyone.

I doubt Valve or Bethesda want to harm a potential customer base.Even if that's what they end up doing.They're trying to cash in on something they don't really understand.And making a pig's ear of it.

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Well, do you want to see high quality content or just some half finished stuff? If yes to the former, then you can't drop something half way through. If you want to get anything done you have to invest alot of time working. You don't play with it, you work to produce something.

I'm not sure how this addresses the part of my post you quoted. And yes, I'm well aware of what hard work is.

Making a living of modding of doesnt sound realistic however, and i don't think the majority would expect that.

I'm not saying the majority do, but the idea has been brought up in this forum and other places so surely reflects the desire of some.

You can't have a job in the industry and do the same things that modders do. Because as modder you can decide on what you work and what you like, extending a game you enjoy. In the industry you work on a new game, and other people tell you what you have to do. Input possible but more often then not you are at the start of the food chain regarding that. Monetary concerns can take over and if the publisher forces you to release early, you have no option, and rease something you know is not good enough.

If a person really loves modding that much that they're exploring the possibility of earning money from it, then a move into the games industry is the obvious end point. That they would not enjoy specific parts of the job (I doubt they enjoy every part of modding either, I definitely didn't enjoy every aspect of mission editing) is just reality.

@Snafu,Akvadakar

I don't think I've ever met a modder that had it get in the way of their life.

There's plenty of comments in this thread and throughout this forum about how modding is getting more and more difficult and is taking more and more time. The conclusion from some being that modders should be able to sell their work. So presumably the amount of work is becoming too much of a burden on their free time and they feel that they need some money from it to provide further motivation to keep them going.

A person can walk to the shop to get a chocolate bar for a few cents.It's tasty,but it's gone pretty quickly.That same person would come home and sit down to play their favourite game and load up their favourite mods.Which they'll get hours,days,weeks or months out of.But they wouldn't consider throwing the same amount to the authors of those mods and addons.Despite the fact they can afford to.

You're comparing a business to a hobby.

People routinely supplement their meager wage with tips.The patron doesn't have to provide those tips.But they do it anyway most of the time.For various reasons.Tips,donations aren't a bad idea if people actually offer them.

Yes, in some countries it is necessary to tip people in certain occupations because the minimum wage is so low that they can't survive on it alone. In other countries this is not necessary and people tip if the job is exceptional.

Nothing is stopping people donating to modders.

If modders get jobs in the gaming industry they likely won't be modding.Certainly not to the same extent.

Yes, because they'll be doing a job. On the other hand, ToM and Karts started off as personal projects.

But modders don't get that.Perhaps not the best example.

I'm sure some modders do. The money earned by the majority of semi-pro footballers is hardly staggering, enough to cover a fraction of the weekly grocery bill. Some semi-pro players in bigger clubs in certain countries can earn up to several thousands per year but they're the exception, not the rule. Do remember that it's all relative, football is the most popular sport in the world.

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If a person really loves modding that much that they're exploring the possibility of earning money from it, then a move into the games industry is the obvious end point. That they would not enjoy specific parts of the job (I doubt they enjoy every part of modding either, I definitely didn't enjoy every aspect of mission editing) is just reality.

Nobody is paying you to create additional content for an already existing game, unless it's an expansion to a game which is certainly an exception in todays gaming industry... You have to create new games in an "industry job". Games that you are told to do. Unless you go indie, in which case you will be working on small game(s) but it's still the same thing.

What you are saying is like trying to tell somebody to get a job as cutting machine operator, because he said he likes to do craftsmanship. It's entirely different what you do in the industry job and what you do in the hobby. There is no exact paid equivalent to modding. If you like creating games, yes work in the industry. If you like to improve a game/ to develop content for it, you are out of luck with career options in that field.

Edited by Fennek

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Nobody is paying you to create additional content for an already existing game, unless it's an expansion to a game which is certainly an exception in todays gaming industry... You have to create new games in an "industry job". Games that you are told to do. Unless you go indie, in which case you will be working on small game(s) but it's still the same thing.

What you are saying is like trying to tell somebody to get a job as cutting machine operator, because he said he likes to do craftsmanship. It's entirely different what you do in the industry job and what you do in the hobby. There is no exact paid equivalent to modding. If you like creating games, yes work in the industry. If you like to improve a game/ to develop content for it, you are out of luck with career options in that field.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

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But if nothing else,this debacle should encourage people to actually put a few cents in the tip jar.

It might convince the humble modder to put off watching the TV,or going to the pub.Or trimming their toe-nails.

First I hope that Valve drops this silly idea, but I also really do hope that this whole scandal raises awareness that donations are welcome and preferable to a forced payment approach. I really would love if Valve just implemented a pay what you want option, or a Donate button when downloading Mods.

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@Snafu

I'm not promoting the Skyrim scheme or any attempt to bring it elsewhere.

But I don't agree that the product of hobbies has to be free.Just because they're

hobbies.

There's nothing technically stopping donations.Apparently they just aren't offered very often.

I suppose people would rather spend a few cents on something else.Arguably of lesser value.

Like a small chocolate bar.

@Akvadakar

Is that worth 10,20 or 30 cents here and there?

These figures seem more like donation than monetization.

That's what I was getting at.Although I should've been clearer.There's nothing wrong with donations.People just don't seem to bother with them much.

Could you use space after punctuation? My eyes are bleeding

Why should I use a space after punctuation?

If your eyes are bleeding you should see a doctor.Don't tell me about it.

Edited by Maczer

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I really would love if Valve just implemented a pay what you want option, or a Donate button when downloading Mods.

As if they cared about modders beign paid. Why would Valve suport system where they don't get cut?

@Macher

It's technical. Most people read text as stream, using our brain's auto recognition. This is why you can read and understand text without noticing pretty evident typos. Lack of space after punctation or comma makes works around it blob together (since, unlike typing machine, they take less space then letters), breaking sequence, forcing reader to actually read words as if he was reading foreign language.

[edit]talked about typos, made "works" instead of "words":j:

Edited by boota

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@Maczer

It was not meant to offend you (my english can drive you crazy too ;)). I just have not seen anyone who actually writes like that.

Anyway, I believe the lack of donations is caused by the extra activity which you must do in current situation.

If it would be just one click "DONATE" in Steam + more "ads" about it (in steam or even in-game - something like the ARMA 3 DLC in-game ads) then things may change. However, I do not think I would donate if less than 50% would reach the modder...

Edited by Akvadakar

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I believe that Adobe's store would be more analogous to Steam in this case: taking a cut for distribution. I can't find anywhere in Adobe's terms of service that says that extension/plugin developers are obligated to give Adobe a percentage of their profits if they don't use Adobe Exchange.

Also, professional modders absolutely do exist and have existed for years in the flight sim community (and apparently in the train sim community, and maybe others). As far as I am aware, they don't pay a cut to the developers or publishers of the games that they mod for.

I'm from the Flight Sim Community (Falcon, DCS, etc.) , and I would call those MODULES, not "mods". They are FAR more than mods.

And yeah, we pay a LOT for them.

Edit: I see what your talking about now. You mean like Open Falcon and such. Yeah, that was actually MORE than a mod, because it was an .exe edit. Not legal, they almost got sued for it.

Small modding like in Arma, I don't see much of that. Maybe in the old days.

Edited by AhabtheArab

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It's technical. Most people read text as stream, using our brain's auto recognition. This is why you can read and understand text without noticing pretty evident typos. Lack of space after punctation or comma makes works around it blob together (since, unlike typing machine, they take less space then letters), breaking sequence, forcing reader to actually read words as if he was reading foreign language.

I've never written any other way. I can see the text clearly and understand it, with, or without spaces after punctuation. The punctuation mark itself has always implied the pause/break to me mentally. No-one's ever mentioned it before. :)

@Akvadakar

My apologies. I thought you were trying to be clever. :)

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Modding is a hobby which by definition is something done for enjoyment in a person's free time. It's rare for people to make money from their hobby let alone enough to live off of it. I play amateur football (soccer) for a team in a league in my free time. Football is my hobby and I love it and it would be a dream to live off of it but that idea is a complete fantasy. Some players are good enough to sign for a semi-pro team and earn a little bit of cash on the side but it's nowhere near enough to live off of. The pay they get is a nice little bonus but it is not the main motivator for them playing.

If modding has gotten to the point where it is becoming too time consuming and is getting in the way of life then it might be time to drop it. Will the potential for earning a small amount of cash make it all worth it? Will it increase hours in the day? If modding is something that a person really loves then maybe they should think about a career in the industry.

If paying for mods does become common then maybe a lucky few might be able to earn enough to live from modding one of the more popular games. They would be the exception though, not the rule.

People who have a good paying job typically will not turn a hobby into a career, people starting off in life will though. As for getting a career in the industry it's not that simple. It's actually pretty hard to get into the gaming industry as a developer. Modders them selves getting a career in the industry for a some-what known company is pretty rare its self. Most of the time you will see modding teams break away from modding and move into an indie game developer role, Project Reality is an example of that and that only happened after what was it? 12? 13 years? I'm not saying that modding is a new route for a career to generate those fat stacks, only a few amount of people could have that potential but it is a way to generate a bit for your hard work. Modding its self is not for everyone.

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I don't want my free time/my hobby about earning money. And it will be about money at least indirectly, because paying modders affects the community behaviour. I have a job, I'm happy if I am home, and I don't want to care about money and all its side effects if at home. If mods are about money, side effects will happen.

BTW,, in my signature, I've linked some ULTRA SUPER MEGA WEATHER THUNDERSTORM INSANITY MODS, GET THEM QUICK FOR DISCOUNT-- 0.00 EUR!!!!11!!!! QUICKLY!

Arrgh, and money in mod world needs DRM. Side effects, tons of.

NO MONEYZ IN MY GAMING. Period.

Edited by PurePassion
removed font size

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No, the last thing mods need are DRM.

There are other ways from the distribution side to enforce people stealing mods and trying to sell them, and that involves the developer curating who can sell what.

DRM in that case literally just fucks over the consumer and little else, where enforcement should only extend so far as the user account with steam which essentially entitles the user to download the mod once it's been paid for, nothing more.

Beyond that, DRM for addons is invasive, and can absolutely be avoided unless you're trying to police users, which is utterly counterintuitive.

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