Catalonia: is Europe’s next independent state?

[mistyronin 1181]

As some people may know, this last years there has been a huge movement pro-independence in Catalonia, one of the called four motors of the European Union ( one of the four most industrialized regions in Europe ).

There has been debate in most of the major economical forums of the world of how could this affect the global economy ( it has been one of the main topics of newspapers like The Economist, or the New York Times ).

In fact in the BI Arma 3, it's already settled as an independent country for its 2035 vision ( you can find Catalonia's independentist flag in the editor )

Tomorrow is gonna be Catalonia's National Day with a lot of independentist activities prepared ( some of them may even reach international news ), and I think it could be an interesting subject for this forum:

What do forum users think about Catalonia, if they think it's gonna be the next independent state and if they feel it affects them in some degree ( specially with the deep crisis in Spain and in the whole European Union )?

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To give some insight for people that may not know about this case I'll add a video-documentary ( spanish secret conflict ) and a few links:

Europe’s next independent state? ( in The Economist )

A Referendum for Catalunya ( a NY Times article written today by actual Catalonia's president )

Celebrating Catalonia's independent spirit ( a The Guardian article by Matthew tree )

NOTE: If anyone thinks about any other interesting link that could give some insight, just tell me.

[columdrum 11]

Sooo secrect ¬¬... i am sure that in 5 years someone will get bored and discover that Euskadi and Galicia also have pro-independence groups since forever.

Not gonna talk of politics right now, but that documentary contains interviews with some extremists both from pro-independence and against-independence, guess it's ok for an interview, but people like Federico Jimenez Losantos( extreme right reporter) are just retarded people that exist everywhere and dunno why would you interview him.

[spooky lynx 73]

All those regions like Catalonia etc. willing for independence got their prosperity while being parts of their countries. So it is not clear will they have the same strong economy being independent.

[mistyronin 1181]

Not gonna talk of politics right now, but that documentary contains interviews with some extremists both from pro-independence and against-independence, guess it's ok for an interview, but people like Federico Jimenez Losantos( extreme right reporter) are just retarded people that exist everywhere and dunno why would you interview him.

I think they were trying to keep a good balance, trying to get all the points of the spectrum; so the viewers can then make they own opinion.

[mistyronin 1181]

More than 1 million Catalans form human chain to promote their bid to break away from Spain

[Tonci87 163]

That is pretty impressive and I´m totally in favour of any state that seeks his independence.

[down8 30]

I'm spanish from Madrid and I support them if their decission is the independence. But aside of a part of Catalans that use to talk Catalonian language, the truth Catalonia is just another region in Spain.

They have their idiosincrasy like every region, but far more points in common with the rest of Spain. They are part of Spain since XV century.

By the way, I recommend all people to visit Barcelona, a great and charmful city.

[mistyronin 1181]

I'm spanish from Madrid and I support them if their decission is the independence. But aside of a part of Catalans that use to talk Catalonian language, the truth Catalonia is just another region in Spain.

They have their idiosincrasy like every region, but far more points in common with the rest of Spain. They are part of Spain since XV century.

As far as I know, from spanish Catholic kings to 1714-1716, Catalonia had its own coin, army, education, borders and law body; the only thing it shared with Castilia was its king. In fact while in Catalonia was a parlamentary monarchy were the king had to negotiate any request, in Castille the same king could do as he please, as it was an absolutist country.

In fact if a farmer from Castille wanted to sell it grain to Catalonia, he had to pay the same taxes as if he wanted to sell them in any other country.

Or catalans had forbidden to go to America as it was a Castilian colony ( you won't fin any conquistador with catalan name / surname ), same that castilians were forbidden to go to catalan colonies in the Mediterranean ( south italy, italian islands, Balearic, etc. )

Edited September 12, 2013 by MistyRonin

[maturin 12]

All those regions like Catalonia etc. willing for independence got their prosperity while being parts of their countries. So it is not clear will they have the same strong economy being independent.

They feel that they are responsible for that prosperity.

If Catalonia had been independent before, they wouldn't have had to live under a fascist dictatorship that systematically dismantled their industrialized society before somehow getting credit for long-delayed tourism-fueled economic development that followed.

[Sealife 22]

I think Scotland will become or vote on independence middle of 2014 so probaby it will be next independent state

[mistyronin 1181]

I think Scotland will become or vote on independence middle of 2014 so probaby it will be next independent state

Yeah there have been some comparisons between both in the british media ( also a bit with Canada's Quebec ).

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I think Scotland will become or vote on independence middle of 2014 so probaby it will be next independent state

Not really clear what will happen there. The economics of the plan haven't been fully explained, eg since the Euro went a bit wobbly, Alex Salmond stated he would keep the pound - the UK government said that wouldn't be an option as linking their strong currency to a weaker economy and uncertainty wasn't in their interests. From some angles, members of the Scottish Independence Party seem to have ambitions of power and don't really care about the wider consequences of their actions. I always regard independence movements with some suspicion, is it really in the interests of the population concerned or does it just fulfil the ambitions of those that will end up in power? The total financial cost is never fully explored.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mistyronin 1181]

A video from The Guardian of the last Wednesday, when more than one million catalans made a huge 400 km link from North to South ( imitating the Baltic Chain that lead to the independence of the Baltic countries ).

I always regard independence movements with some suspicion, is it really in the interests of the population concerned or does it just fulfil the ambitions of those that will end up in power? The total financial cost is never fully explored.

Interesting point. As far as I know in Catalonia was the people with massive demonstrations that made the ruling party ( CiU ) to change its federalist policies to a pro-independence ones.

[Tisor 17]

BTW, do you really thing all the people who lives in Catalonia want the independence? They want or not, they are part of Spain, and that's all. They must check their ID document and see what it says: "Reino de España".

Anyway, ArmA 3 devs did a very big error making that flag in there... they should remove it.

[Beagle 684]

I think Scotland will become or vote on independence middle of 2014 so probaby it will be next independent state

Bavaria is the same...it's one of the two a free states inside the federal republic, the second beeing Saxony but Saxony is in dire need of federal money while bavaria is not. My former girlfriend from Quebec also told the same about Quebec dropping out of Canada.

[Tonci87 163]

BTW, do you really thing all the people who lives in Catalonia want the independence? They want or not, they are part of Spain, and that's all. They must check their ID document and see what it says: "Reino de España".

Anyway, ArmA 3 devs did a very big error making that flag in there... they should remove it.

I understand that you are from Spain and might be a bit biased on this, but don´t you think that the inhabitants of a country should have the right to be independent?

[bardosy 158]

Just a little story when I spent summer holiday in Catalonia. I want to buy a train ticket and I stand in the queue front of the cassa. And a spanish couple stand front of me. When they were the first, they ask tickets in spanish and the catalonian cassier refuse it, he said: ask it in catalonian! The couple was very angry and left the place. I was shocked, because I speak a little bit spanish and I thought I will practice it, but after this I was afraid to speak in spanish, so I ask the tickets in english. But the train-boy didn't speak english, so he ask me to speak spanish. :)

Anyway I support Euskadi and Catalonia to gain independence, but the truth is, Spain is not a very bad place to stay. I totally understand these people, because in Franco-regime it was not easy to be a catalan or basque. But nowdays? I saw a graffity in Barcelona: "Bilinguismo!" and I absolutely sure it was painted by a spanish, because it almost prohibited to speak in spanish at Barcelona (or at least it was the first text in Barcelona in spanish what I saw). But alright, if someone ask me, I say: let leave Catalonia and Euskadi. As I support the independent Kosovo too.

[mistyronin 1181]

BTW, do you really thing all the people who lives in Catalonia want the independence? They want or not, they are part of Spain, and that's all.

Why shouldn't that people be allowed to vote to decide their future? Same goes for Scotland, Bavaria, and all the regions who don't feel represented by their government. It's one of the human rights in the UN declaration.

This remembers me to the divorce debate. Each of the partners should be free to decide it's own future if they doesn't feel good in the marriage ( for whatever reasons ).

Or is the spouse property of the husband? In this case: Is Catalonia property of Spain? hence are catalans serfs?

BTW it's what most of Europe countries did to achieve its independence ( like Finland ).

Edited September 21, 2013 by MistyRonin

[barbolani 198]

As far as I know, from spanish Catholic kings to 1714-1716, Catalonia had its own coin, army, education, borders and law body; the only thing it shared with Castilia was its king. In fact while in Catalonia was a parlamentary monarchy were the king had to negotiate any request, in Castille the same king could do as he please, as it was an absolutist country.

Or catalans had forbidden to go to America as it was a Castilian colony ( you won't fin any conquistador with catalan name / surname ), same that castilians were forbidden to go to catalan colonies in the Mediterranean ( south italy, italian islands, Balearic, etc. )

In the best case, you are not completely right.

Yes, two kingdoms under one King.

Different coin, language, and laws, until sucesory wars (don know if in english they are called so).

But:

- Catalonia has never been a kingdom, it was part of Kingdom of Aragon.

- Aragon has never been a parlamentary monarchy.

- They had some kind of counsel with some power, but same as Castilia.

- Castilia has never been an absolutistist monarchy country until Philip V

- Mediterranean lands have never been a colony.

- Catalans had never been forbidden to go to America. The point of the conquerors have a simple explanation: The spanish kings never had interests on suscribing america to Aragon, because the nobility there was much more powerful tan Castilian one, so, making America a Castilian colony will allow them to not share their power with others.

- Indeed, probably the most equitative feudalism around the world has been in Castilia.

The root problem starts with those Sucesory Wars. Philip V won them and imported the aboslutism schemes from the French monarchy (he was french, King Loui's grandson AFAIK), and Catalonia supported the losers (can't remember the name), so the punishment was the removal of lots of institutions, for example: judgements were mandatory in Castilian, no more in Catalonian.

Since then, instead of the "common Project" like could be in schwitzerland, we find winners and loosers, and of course, the loosers are not happy....

And now my opinion: Nationalism is just an invention. The rich and powerful need something to convince you to send your 19 years old child to die in the trenches, and it works fine.

Spain has a sick society with corruption at all levels, specially in politics, and there are some people that found they can have power with the independency speech rather more tan doing other activities (such as having a honest job and do it the best you can).

So, supporting this, IMHO is just selecting which bastard son of a bich steals money from your taxes. And letme say, I don't really care which language speaks the guy is robbing me....

[maturin 12]

Anyways, when it comes to separatism, the idea of a people 'deserving' their independence because of past oppression is only really relevant to the court of international opinion. What matters more is past attempts at secession, and I know the Catalans tried to break free from Madrid with just about every war Spain fought against England. Not saying that that makes a strong case for independence, just providing an example.

But I think Franco and the civil war is by far the most important force at work here. So what if you have a nice sunny history of unity if Franco comes after? Just as the modern American Republican Party is the political descendant of the confederacy and the recipient of its legacy, the PP and Madrid centralism carry the legacy of the fall of Barcelona in the minds of Catalans. Separatism tends to be something that gets smoothed over until there's a civil war.

It's not an opinion that nationalism is an invention. But nationalism becomes a fact, and a fact that shouldn't be held hostage to political minutiae of past era (ie, the Palestinians not deserving a state because they didn't hold enough posts in a dedicated subdivision of the Ottoman Empire).

[mistyronin 1181]

- Catalans had never been forbidden to go to America. The point of the conquerors have a simple explanation: The spanish kings never had interests on suscribing america to Aragon, because the nobility there was much more powerful tan Castilian one, so, making America a Castilian colony will allow them to not share their power with others.

Just directly from the Wikipedia, just to show that is a known fact, if you prefer more serious sources, I can easily look for more.

Castile and Aragon were separate states until 1716 in spite of a shared crown and the newly established colonies in the Americas and Pacific were Castilian, administered as appendages of Castile, until in 1778 Seville was the only port authorized to trade in America, and until the dynastic union Catalans, as subjects of the Crown of Aragon, had no right to trade directly with the Castilian-ruled Americas.

Spain has a sick society with corruption at all levels, specially in politics

I agree 100% with you in that statement (from little families to huge corporations). In fact to me its still difficult how it can still be in the European Union.

Today for example the ruling party, Partido Popular, has been the only one to vote against considering a crime the apology of fascism/nazism and incite violence/hate. El País newspaper article ( in spanish )

IMO that's unaccountable in a country that is supposed to be democratic. Specially now that in Spain the central government is promoting hate against UK, with its fruits like this video in which children staging a killing of britons clapped by their familiars ( from the newspaper The telegraph ).

[barbolani 198]

Just directly from the Wikipedia, just to show that is a known fact, if you prefer more serious sources, I can easily look for more.

The wiki is just describing a consecuence of what I said: having one single port with rights to trade with America, makes things easier for the Crown to control that trade if that port is part of a kingdom on which nobility had no power (Nobility in Castilla is nothing compared to other european kingdoms, due to several reasons)

The PP decision is deeper tan that, the situation here with fascism is complex.

¿Promoting hate against UK? Nah, don't worry until you win us a world cup final with a suspicious refree.... the rest is just one week fashion... Remember british people are one of our best customers in matters of tourism.

[mistyronin 1181]

The wiki is just describing a consecuence of what I said: having one single port with rights to trade with America, makes things easier for the Crown to control that trade if that port is part of a kingdom on which nobility had no power (Nobility in Castilla is nothing compared to other european kingdoms, due to several reasons)

Well its a matter of opinion. But reading some documents of that time, it seems clear to me that each one of the countries that formed the Hispanic Monarchy were quite different, and independent one from each other. Even nowadays I can feel the different cultures, for example going from Cantabria to Basque country it make me feels like when you cross from Germany to France, another nation.

The PP decision is deeper tan that, the situation here with fascism is complex.

¿Promoting hate against UK? Nah, don't worry until you win us a world cup final with a suspicious refree.... the rest is just one week fashion... Remember british people are one of our best customers in matters of tourism.

Well, maybe its that I was taught in a whole different environment, more cold, but to me most of the newspapers opinions ( and covers ) and most of the speeches from members of parties like PP, UPyD, or even sometimes PSOE... are at least IMO an apology to hatred ( guess that its also a way to gain votes ).

Specially I detect a lot of xenophobic hate in Spain, against everyone doesn't have the castilian culture, from interns against catalans or basques (that I have heard comments like that they should be all dead ), to externals ( against the US, UK, Germany, France, Morocco, etc. ).

But I also see that this kind of hate is also growing a bit in other countries, like Greece, Russia or even Finland and Sweden ( I have been a witness ). But in Spain I felt it really exaggerated.

This one for example ( adding a terrorist sign to the EU flag ).

Maybe its that spaniards tend to be really "hot" ( IMO aggressive and intolerant ) in they way to defend their ideas... Thought there are also a few calm ones, like the great economist Xavier Sala-i-Martin, Pep Guardiola ( amazing coach ), Marc Coma, Rafa Nadal or the young Marc Marquez.

Edited October 23, 2013 by MistyRonin

[barbolani 198]

Of course they are different, Iberians have been here for the last 40.000 years! That's one of the good things in Spain, 200Km away in one direction or other, and people speak differently, eat different things, live their lives in a different way!!!

There is no more hate than any other country in the world. Any fagot that says something like "{_x setdamage 1} foreach units _regionorethnic" may have been born in any part of the world, and you may find them everywhere.

Of course, as a country in a deep crisis, this kind of thinking appears more often now, but as son as everything returns to some fin situation, this becomes marginal again.

Also independentism.

Spaniards are not hot or cold, racist or hippies, that kind of attachment is ridiculous. The only thing I can tell you is they eat much better dishes than you. No more.

In other words: Idiots grow everywhere

And PLEASE do not put as an example of "good spaniard" a 18 yr old boy that rides motorbikes, or a footbal coach... A Spaniard invented the hellicopter, did you know?

[mistyronin 1181]

barbolani I understand that you are from Spain, so IMO not neutral on the question.

I lived in different cities down there ( Barcelona, Madrid, Murcia, Toledo, Torrelavega ), also in other countries like Italy, UK, or now in Finland. And my perception is that in Spain, specially in the castilian-speaking zones there is huge aggressivity against anything not castilian.

Ah, and I first lived there before the 2008, when Spain "was in the champions league" ( as PM Zapatero said ); I was even in Madrid during the 11M in 2004 ( my girlfriend at that time used to took the train but that day instead took a bus ).

And I really enjoyed visiting all the provinces when I had spare time ( the only ones that I'ven't visited are Ceuta and Melilla ). So yeah, I've a little idea of how culture is down there, I even had three spanish ex-girlfriends xD. And that kind of hate messages, you could heard them everywhere, from a little bar in Ronda ( Andalusia ) to Orbaneja del Castillo ( Burgos, BTW an awesome village ).

Once in Madrid I was speaking in Italian in my cell phone when I was asked to exit the taxi where I was, because the driver thought I was speaking in catalan.

And you don't have to read Malinowski, Evans, Boas or Lévi-Strauss; to know that every culture has different features and feelings. One easy way to study that is linguistics ( in castilian-spanish there is a predominant amount of words about violence / war, in german for feelings, in finnish for nature elements ). There are even anthropological scientific studies about aggressiveness by country.

BTW I thought that was the french Paul Cornu who designed the first helicopter in 1907. If you mean De la Cierva, he invented the gyroplane in early 1920s.

I've seen numerous interviews with Marc Marquez, and besides his young age, he's really clever and grown up.

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EDIT:

Barbolani, if you watch the last tv show of Salvados, specially the interview with Arturo Perez-Reverte, he explains perfectly what I was saying about the hate and the aggressiveness in Spain ( and he is a spanish journalist / writer who has traveled around the world ).

Edited October 27, 2013 by MistyRonin
adding EDIT