Let's see what will happen if a APFSDS hit a tank in reality and in A3

[msy 22]

When an 120mm APFSDS hit a tank, what will happen in reality and in ARMA3?

1. The tank is too hard and it resists the hit once, if then every hitting point is not the same position, then in reality it is like: bang, bang, bang, bang, ...... bang until no ammo. However in ARMA3, it is like all white status, all white status, all white status, all white status, all white status, all yellow status, all red status, all dimembark! and boom! Wait why it will blow? What a damn HP config does it have?

2. The tank is little weak and it has to be pierced, then in reality and in ARMA3

a. the optic system is damaged VS no optic system status config in ARMA3

b. the transmission system is damaged VS unless the track and engin is completely destroyed.

c. the crew are injured or killed VS in the tank they die hard but they prefer get out to death.

d. the ammo may be detonate by metal-jet and the tank is destroyed VS no sympathatic detonation config in ARMA3 so one round to make a firework for RUSSIAN tank is no way in ARMA3.

e. the engine is destroyed the tank loses its power maybe staying maybe starting burning VS it's OK unless red status then boom in ARMA3! Can you DEV make a fire first then boom?

f. The track is damaged then the tank breaks down VS it's OK unless red status.

To sum up, in 2013, after 12years, Are you kidding me it is much more rougher camparing to some funny MMO game such as WOT! In my opinion BIS your vehicles config in ARMA3 has only one advantage than BF3 that is your gunner can lock target and dont fire like in WWI.:mad:

3. Can a lot of 7.62MG bullets destroy a MBT's front armor in reality? What about .50 bullets? Only I can confirm yes it can!

Edited September 8, 2013 by msy

[sorophx 25]

I agree armored vehicles in this game behave... strangely when hit, to say the least

[suprememodder 11]

also the tank animations are still from 2000's operation flashpoint. since the crew bails so much, i think the crew should at least leave from the hatch, not magical portals on the side of the tank. it's quite a jarring experience

[mr burns 132]

also the tank animations are still from 2000's operation flashpoint. since the crew bails so much, i think the crew should at least leave from the hatch, not magical portals on the side of the tank. it's quite a jarring experience

Would be very nice to have, but in ArmAverse you gotta think/wish with AI restraints in mind.

In the case of ejecting from their respective ports, they´d totally get lost due to not having ground contact.

And i don´t think the age old trick of pathway lods, which enables them to navigate houses to some extent, would be applicable to tanks (even more so it´d be shitty as hell!).

So there´s your reason for no better anything (mostly) = AI in ArmA cannot handle it.

edit: Thinking about it, why not make very long animations that cover the whole bailing process. As i understand now in ArmA3 the anims can be briefly interrupted for death states so there wouldn´t even be any of the usual visual flaws to it...

edit2: As for the rest of OP - outsource the whole tanking damage system to wargaming :D

Edited September 7, 2013 by Mr Burns

[spamurai 3]

Each vehicle would need it's own set of animations for each of it's crew positions. The AI wouldn't be handed control of the character until the animation finished playing out. There would be no "navigation" pathing problems since each dismount animation is pre-rendered sequence of frames that simply transitions the character model onto the ground at the trigger spot for getting in/out of vehicle.

The main issue is that it's a lot of work to build all the animations for every vehicle. And you might want 2 sets of at least the dismount animations, one set for dismounting normally, and another for bailing/ejecting out of a damaged vehicle.

[Beagle 684]

It is plain wrong thinking that a sabot that hits but does not fully penerate does nothing at all. Same gos for HEAT. A few hits can take the MBT out action and force it to retreat even when penetration happened. The reason is that MBTs are not solid metal blocks but sophisticated system that can fail to work much easier as some might think. The problem with ArmA is that most of the subsystem that might fail are simply not simulated. For example you might experience a failure of the FCS and all Optics exept the plain WW2 style backup scope after the hit or you lose the power driven turret crank etc...nothing ofthat would destroy the tak or even hurt someine inside but the MBT is basically out of action and has to retreat.

[Azzur33 1]

...Lots of angryness

What game do you play? Where do you hit your sabots? Do you have some extra-armor thing on?

When I'm hit with a sabot, it's usually red status where the sabot hits. So with one sabot you can disable a tank.

Also .. APFSDS is just a dart. It just penetrates, it doesn't make a metal jet like HEAT.

Why suddenly so many wants those "one hit wherever you want - one big boom" tank battles back ...wasn't that annoying in previous games.

But yes, there could be some fire/smoke if you destroy the engine or create enough, but not critical, damage.

By the way .... how much did it take to destroy MBT front armor with 7.62?

I tried with static .50. It took about 1900 bullets to blow up Slammer. T-1000 took 2300+.

Ok, I don't know how much damage does 1900 .50 cal bullets to the front armor of the tank, but one thing is sure, you wouldn't try that in combat.

No need to be that angry.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Azzur33

[Hellbeard 10]

He's right. Modern kinetic penetrators should take out with one shot anything that's not too soft to just go through (perforation) with the exception of tanks at certain ranges/angles/hit locations. If you have a good hit, that is. In my experiment (you can see in the tanks, tanks, tanks thread) Kinetic penetrators disabled only 3 out of 8 BTR-Ks and did not damage the remaining 5 at all. That is unacceptable. It should almost always destroy APCs with one shot(at a good location, angle and range). The 125mm APFSDS could hit a target 8 times before destroying it and one sponged up 9 shots and didn't explode.

I guess he's so mad because the implementation of tanks is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with tanks, it's some FPS-video-gamey-wishy-washy monstrosity.

Also, the APFSDS is just a metal dart but it does create a super-hot molten metal jet as well as shards of armor and equipment and a shock-wave to boot. Things catch fire if they can and with a machine that's full of exploding stuff it may explode more often than not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator

"...The principle of the kinetic energy penetrator is that it uses its kinetic energy, which is a function of mass and velocity, to force its way through armour. If the armor is defeated, the heat and spalling (particle spray) generated by the penetrator going through the armor, and the pressure wave that would develop, would destroy the target."

Edit: and it has a tracer on it's butt which is basically fire.

[Azzur33 1]

I guess he's so mad because the implementation of tanks is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with tanks, it's some FPS-video-gamey-wishy-washy monstrosity.

Some exaggerated words fly around again.

I don't think that sabot hitting tank tracks would cause it to explode with a big ball of fire like in A2.

A direct hit with one in A3 DOES damage the tank usually enough to make it uncapable to shoot back or move.

[Hellbeard 10]

Some exaggerated words fly around again.

I don't think that sabot hitting tank tracks would cause it to explode with a big ball of fire like in A2.

A direct hit with one in A3 DOES damage the tank usually enough to make it uncapable to shoot back or move.

My BTR experiment would suggest otherwise.

[Azzur33 1]

My BTR experiment would suggest otherwise.

If you hit the BTR "body", it doesn't show damage in the hud, but the damage IS there.

2-3 "body shots" and explosion.

One good hit in the "vital parts" will disable it.

If you shoot only to the cargo area from the side, it will take the 8-9 shots to cause an explosion.

Problem is though, that the guys should suffer more inside.

Another problem is that the first "body" shot doesn't damage the crew or affect the tank's functionality at all, until there's "critical damage".

The turret should also be easier to destroy, if you hit the AT missiles with a couple of sabots, I would think they wouldn't fly anywhere.

And about your "HE ammo is useless" comment ...totally pointless.

If you shoot at infantry which is few hundred meters away and on level ground, getting that ammo to land just where they are is a challenge. It has NO effect if it lands 50 meters ahead of them, or 50 meters behind them. One good shot can wipe out a whole squad if they are not keeping their distances. And even if they are, there will be 3-4 bodies lying around.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Azzur33

[Hellbeard 10]

If you hit the BTR "body", it doesn't show damage in the hud, but the damage IS there.

2-3 "body shots" and explosion.

One good hit in the "vital parts" will disable it.

If you shoot only to the cargo area from the side, it will take the 8-9 shots to cause an explosion.

Problem is though, that the guys should suffer more inside.

Another problem is that the first "body" shot doesn't damage the crew or affect the tank's functionality at all, until there's "critical damage".

The turret should also be easier to destroy, if you hit the AT missiles with a couple of sabots, I would think they wouldn't fly anywhere.

And about your "HE ammo is useless" comment ...totally pointless.

If you shoot at infantry which is few hundred meters away and on level ground, getting that ammo to land just where they are is a challenge. It has NO effect if it lands 50 meters ahead of them, or 50 meters behind them. One good shot can wipe out a whole squad if they are not keeping their distances. And even if they are, there will be 3-4 bodies lying around.

What the hell is this damage that has no effect, does not show anywhere and yet is mysteriously there? The HIT POINTS of the APC go down?

From my test against infantry your claim is not the case, it may randomly and with low probability of occurrence, be effective against those soft liquid sacks we call infantry but in most cases it will not even make them do the little injury dance. A more comprehensive experiment remains to be conducted. In any event the effect is flimsy, like the 40mm grenade.

More than that, tanks, now and in the future do not and will not carry an HE round particularly because of how ineffective it is. It only takes up space. A HEAT or HEDP makes more sense because it can also be used against soft and hard skin targets and for pure infantry killing power a flechette or APAM or other airburst munition are WAY more effective.

[Azzur33 1]

What the hell is this damage that has no effect, does not show anywhere and yet is mysteriously there? The HIT POINTS of the APC go down?

Yes, you could call them "hit points" if you like.

From my test against infantry your claim is not the case, it may randomly and with low probability of occurrence, be effective against those soft liquid sacks we call infantry but in most cases it will not even make them do the little injury dance. A more comprehensive experiment remains to be conducted. In any event the effect is flimsy, like the 40mm grenade.

Now you must be trolling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W31Q3WnDTA

More than that, tanks, now and in the future do not and will not carry an HE round particularly because of how ineffective it is. It only takes up space. A HEAT or HEDP makes more sense because it can also be used against soft and hard skin targets and for pure infantry killing power a flechette or APAM or other airburst munition are WAY more effective.

There is so much to simulate, and so little time.

It is possible to mod Arma's tanks and what they carry.

Same goes with the planes and other vehicles.

[Hellbeard 10]

After a little test with similar conditions to your video it does seem to be more effective than it is in flat terrain. Strange that on a flat terrain the explosion had such a weak effect. Maybe it's a bug.

I apologize if my demeanor is scathing. I don't want to troll. It's my passion for tanks, and my love for ARMA that make me "raise my voice", in a manner of speaking.

HEAT or HEDP shouldn't take much effort. Give the HE a new name and armor piercing capability and Bob's your uncle.

[PantherAl 11]

Agreed. They need to dump that HE-T (Which doesn't exist) and replace it with HEAT at the least, if not adding MPAT and LAHAT as well for the 120.

[maturin 12]

What are you talking about, doesn't exist?

The Russians use HE tank shells, and you better believe it has a tracer, so it's therefore HE-T.

We don't have to like 2035, but a HE shell is hardly exotic. It's only down to pure idiocy that the Abrams doesn't already have one. KE ammo in the streets of Fallujah, WTF?

[Hellbeard 10]

What are you talking about, doesn't exist?

The Russians use HE tank shells, and you better believe it has a tracer, so it's therefore HE-T.

We don't have to like 2035, but a HE shell is hardly exotic. It's only down to pure idiocy that the Abrams doesn't already have one. KE ammo in the streets of Fallujah, WTF?

Edit: Damn it, it's like I can't help but keep being rude!

What I meant was I think we might not understand each other. High Explosive shells, as in, pure HE don't seem to be so prevalent. I've found an entry for a 1970's and a 1960's HE-FRAG-FS which makes a little more sense.

Western guns have high explosive rounds as well, but they're of an armor penetrating or dual purpose strain. For a pure anti infantry round there is smart air bursting munition or old-school flechette. The Abrams also has a HEAT round:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M830

I'm sure PanterAI can elaborate.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Hellbeard

[PantherAl 11]

Yep. Note I said 120. HE out of main guns, at the velocities that they fire, are hit and miss. The only rounds that are not KE, are the following:

HEAT - Various makes

DM12 - A Multipurpose HEAT round, that was then adopted as the MPAT. Basically a standard Shaped Charge HEAT round, but with a fuse that could be set to contact, or proximity for use against Helo's. However, the blast effect leaves a lot to be desired.

M1028 - A massive shotgun shell holding 1400 quarter inch tungsten pellets. Very fun to fire. :) (Just for the laughs, its worth noting that the biggest infantry killer in the blackpowder artillery days was 12 pounders firing canister. The bore diameter of a 12 pounder? roughly 120mm)

And finally, the M908. Basically the MPAT with the prox fuse replaced with a steel cap to blast its way into bunkers better.

The Israeli's have the LAHAT, a beam riding ATGM, as well as the APAM, which is a AP round designed to burst at controlled intervals to scatter fragments designed to defeat body armour.

And yes, I've used KE in the streets of Fallujah. Its actually very useful, since you know what exactly where you are gonna hit, and not gonna hit - and since a dude ain't gonna slow it down, you know the round is gonna keep trucking into the desert outside of the city instead of blowing up somebody's house. Great for taking down snipers in no shoot areas.

[alx 20]

This is what happens when a single rpg hits a tank in real life (near the end of the video).

[nodunit 397]

And this is partly why http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/T72_crew.svg/720px-T72_crew.svg.png then you have the ammunition type..

Suddenly storage in the back with blast panels to vent the force and explosion upward and away from the crew makes perfect sense. T-90MS seems to be sporting something like it as well http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_crO1Gb_E3s/TnTHlZeo3XI/AAAAAAAAAh4/2NBiTU-BTCk/s1600/T-90MS_eng-14.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6209/81237179.aa/0_71e51_40e43a6b_XXXL.jpg

Edited September 13, 2013 by NodUnit

[PantherAl 11]

Took a look at that, and talked to some folks that is still in the tank-info biz. The current ammo storage of the new prototypes is a pretty good step in the right direction, but its not quite there yet. Basically the bustle is used for the non-ready ammo (Remember, multi-part ammo), where as the ready ammo is still located in the floor for use by the auto-loader. A significant improvement, but all it really does is prevents pop-tops from being so common, and not insignificantly increase the chances of the crew living from a hit that would have normally set off the plethora of ammo on the old system to blasting out the most vulnerable ammo out away from the crew in a more or less survivable fashion.

Edited September 14, 2013 by PantherAl

[S_Froggy 10]

Yep. Note I said 120. HE out of main guns, at the velocities that they fire, are hit and miss. The only rounds that are not KE, are the following:

HEAT - Various makes

DM12 - A Multipurpose HEAT round, that was then adopted as the MPAT. Basically a standard Shaped Charge HEAT round, but with a fuse that could be set to contact, or proximity for use against Helo's. However, the blast effect leaves a lot to be desired.

M1028 - A massive shotgun shell holding 1400 quarter inch tungsten pellets. Very fun to fire. :) (Just for the laughs, its worth noting that the biggest infantry killer in the blackpowder artillery days was 12 pounders firing canister. The bore diameter of a 12 pounder? roughly 120mm)

And finally, the M908. Basically the MPAT with the prox fuse replaced with a steel cap to blast its way into bunkers better.

The Israeli's have the LAHAT, a beam riding ATGM, as well as the APAM, which is a AP round designed to burst at controlled intervals to scatter fragments designed to defeat body armour.

And yes, I've used KE in the streets of Fallujah. Its actually very useful, since you know what exactly where you are gonna hit, and not gonna hit - and since a dude ain't gonna slow it down, you know the round is gonna keep trucking into the desert outside of the city instead of blowing up somebody's house. Great for taking down snipers in no shoot areas.

May be you should hold your affirmative and look out of your A..

DM11, Germany, USA;

Slsgr 95, Sweden

120 EXPL F1, France ;

[nodunit 397]

Took a look at that, and talked to some folks that is still in the tank-info biz. The current ammo storage of the new prototypes is a pretty good step in the right direction, but its not quite there yet. Basically the bustle is used for the non-ready ammo (Remember, multi-part ammo), where as the ready ammo is still located in the floor for use by the auto-loader. A significant improvement, but all it really does is prevents pop-tops from being so common, and not insignificantly increase the chances of the crew living from a hit that would have normally set off the plethora of ammo on the old system to blasting out the most vulnerable ammo out away from the crew in a more or less survivable fashion.

Strange...do you know why they are going with a system like that as opposed to something more streamlined like the sliding panels and ammo path of something like the abrams? I'm really curious because at some point I'd like to make a T-90MS so I'm after whatever I can get, and the reasons behind them if possible.

[Damian90 697]

@NodUnit

It is done that way, because there is really no ther way. Parts of autoloader mechanism are mounted at turret rear bulkhead + turret geometry and size are reason for no sliding doors..

Besides this originally engineers wanted to leave only ammunition in autolader with 22 rounds. However Army wanted a full ammunition storage of around 40 rounds, this is why to improve survivability, engineers decided to place additional ammo in armored box bolted to turret bustle.

Yeah, actually this ammunition storage bustle is a simple armored box attached to turret rear, and if nececary can be deattached and left behind.

Additionaly I can ask some Russians I know for more details, but I will be capable to answer some days after tommorow.

PS. Similiar armored ammo box attached to turret rear is used in newest Ukrainian tank, BM "Oplot" (translates as Battle Machine "Hold" or "Fortress") vel T-84M.

BTW there was a project of universal turret codenamed "Burlak" for former Soviet tanks, which had two autoloaders, one for 22 rounds under turret, and second also for 22 rounds as replacebale turret bustle module.

[PantherAl 11]

May be you should hold your affirmative and look out of your A..

DM11, Germany, USA;

Slsgr 95, Sweden

120 EXPL F1, France ;

OK:

DM11. A simplified shaped charge round, so: a flavor of HEAT with a hint of DM12 (MPAT) tossed in for good measure. Best way to look at it is as a product improved MPAT round.

Slsgr 95 is the Swedish made version of the DM11. Once more, HEAT in a fashion.

The French EXPL F1 is indeed a pure HE round. But outside of France and those nations using the Leclerc, its unused, once more, because pure HE at Main Gun velocities are hit and miss at best. Not to say its useless, but compared to HEAT, not worth adding another ammo type to your rack.