TMR Modular Realism

[thx1137 10]

Will you be making adjustments as though a professional soldier is firing or something that feels right to the masses? Whenever I hear "realistic" I wonder who it is in terms of! Things like muzzle climb I would have thought would be largely automatically compensated for by a soldier with intimate familiarity with a weapon. I know it worked that way wit my 22 :-)

[sqb-sma 66]

Will you be making adjustments as though a professional soldier is firing or something that feels right to the masses? Whenever I hear "realistic" I wonder who it is in terms of! Things like muzzle climb I would have thought would be largely automatically compensated for by a soldier with intimate familiarity with a weapon. I know it worked that way wit my 22 :-)

Muzzle climb on a 22? :D

I think that any instinctive recoil control should be done by the user getting familiar with how the weapons behave. For this reason I'd love to have some reliable recoil, that always goes around the same direction and near the same amount. This should probably be reasonably large, about what default Arma 3 has. I love having the player control these things, it means there's something to learn, some skill to the game (and a reason to rest weapons and use bipods, currently the recoil reduction is tiny just because there's so little to start off with; see any of the 7.62s for example)

Also, movement always looks tiny when you're looking in, when you're holding the gun on a target that is arc-minutes high a small movement has a huge effect, and in Arma you shoot whilst hugely zoomed in, making the recoil look bigger again. Try using the default guns but with your camera zoomed out (double tap num - ) and you'll see how tiny it can look with a different FOV.

[thx1137 10]

Yeah. I know. I was a kid then and I didn't say it moved much! Thinking about it was probably less climb than my skinny little arms trying to hold it up so more weapons sway. Forget I said it. Most people on these forums didn't even exist then, a long time ago...

Yeah. I get the FOV. It seems to me weapons sway and climb would be what I would expect if I (untrained) fired the weapon. I thought it was too much because pretty fit and strong plus knowing the weapon intimately I figure the compensation would be largely automatic. I could easily be wrong though...

[pachira 1]

I got a bug where AI and players will automatically say NO AMMO when they are carrying PCML, even if it is loaded. This will cause AI squad leaders to tell players and AI to rearm. Tested on the Combined Arms Showcase.

Other than that minor issue, I love the mod.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Pachira

[sqb-sma 66]

Yeah. I know. I was a kid then and I didn't say it moved much! Thinking about it was probably less climb than my skinny little arms trying to hold it up so more weapons sway. Forget I said it. Most people on these forums didn't even exist then, a long time ago...

Yeah. I get the FOV. It seems to me weapons sway and climb would be what I would expect if I (untrained) fired the weapon. I thought it was too much because pretty fit and strong plus knowing the weapon intimately I figure the compensation would be largely automatic. I could easily be wrong though...

Haha, I think 22's probably have enough recoil for it to be significant for a kid, you're right!

I've found even being fit and strong, or having an intimate knowledge of a weapon, does not make the sway much smaller than when you start off (unless you start off with the wrong grip, or hold with a death grip, causing shaking). It does, however, make your sway heaps more reliable. As you learn to breathe in and out in a certain way, making the scope sway quite consistently. When in any condition other than perfect there's also a slight shake, more prominent when crouched and unsupported than standing unsupported (contrary to how games portray it). Recoil's just about the same in crouched and standing, once again, but it is quite a kick with 7.62s, more than enough to put you off target at 50+ meters.

RE: How other games portray it... Project Reality is just obscene, the bullets don't seem to go where the gun's pointing and the gun ends up pointing every which way, it's designed to make it hard to shoot accurately, and so make firefights last a long time even with deadly bullets and low health. Ro2's recoil was good, but then the gun recentered automatically removing any real skill from shooting different weapons, RO OST was good but far too much, like shooting slug from a 12 guage (slugs are larger in diameter than pellets, and made to fill the overbored barrel, they punch a lot more!) with even the submachine guns.

I'm all for anything that furthers the realistic gameplay, making player skill a requirement whilst not damaging the responsiveness of player input (As Arma 2 did, whilst it made shooting hard it felt clumsy with a mouse, which is a big no-no)

[Taosenai 11]

The new recoil/climb profiles are coming along swimmingly and I expect that they will please everyone. That's how optimistic of a guy I am, even on this obscenely polarizing issue! I hope to have an "RFC" version available soon.

[Nikoteen 24]

Good news) I am actually optimistic your settings will please me, if not everyone :)

This is such a positive corrective compared to vanilla's terrible recoil !

Carry on ;)

[dav 22]

Quick question, my resting is fine and optics are working great, really like them by the way, great work, however my bi pod wont deploy when I hit lock? Any suggestions?

[Taosenai 11]

Run through the resting tutorial and see what key it asks you to press. (And make sure the weapon you are using has a bipod on it.)

Edited September 18, 2013 by Taosenai

[Taosenai 11]

New recoil scheme theory:

The main problem with the default (BI) recoil scheme is that the muzzle climb is permanent. That is, after firing, your barrel goes up... and stays there, as if you were holding it there. This means that after every shot you must actively correct for muzzle climb, even when firing single shots in semi-auto. In reality, gravity and reflexive response will move the weapon back down towards its original position after firing. You do NOT fight the weapon back down when firing semi-auto, unless you just want to wildly spray shots up and down in a string.

--- In Arma terms, what this means is that you should never have to fight the mouse in order to bring the rifle back down when firing semi-auto shots, even at a relatively rapid cadence. It should happen smoothly and naturally, bringing you back down near your firing point (plus whatever sway has happened in the meantime).

This isn't true in full-auto. For full-auto, you need to establish a strong grip and an aggressive stance, and actively pull the rifle back into your shoulder to prevent the climb from going out of control. With proper stance, grip, and recoil managment it's possible to control anything from an M4 to an M60 (if you're Chris Costa) in a standing unsupported position. After firing stops, however, there's typically an abrupt downward jerk of the weapon as the continuous recoil pressure disappears. In any case, you're trading accuracy for rate of fire: rounds per minute, rather than hits per minute.

--- In Arma terms, what this means is that you should have to use the mouse to control the climb of full-auto. If you just let the weapon cycle, it ought to climb to the sky just like in all of those videos of shooters not ready for it. Here is a big gameplay/skill factor -- just like in reality, a trained 'operator' is going to be able to easily keep the weapon under control and use full-auto effectively in CQB, and an unskilled operator is going to spray and waste ammo. After the firing stops, the rifle should pull down. Longer bursts in full-auto should lead to accuracy loss as the sight picture degrades.

The new TMR recoil model implements all of these things to the best of my ability. Try it out. Grab an MX, put a HAMR on it, hold your breath, and take a few shots at a point target. Watch the reticle climb instantly then smoothly return down to your point of aim. Make a microcorrection with your mouse to get right back on target, and fire again. Switch to full-auto. Wildly miss until you learn how to control the rate of fire of the MX, then rein it in for useful suppression in CQB/MOUT. Load a 100 rounder, and fire a big burst on full-auto from standing unsupported; watch rounds start to turn into wild fliers as you fight the weapon.

Every weapon has a hand-tuned recoil model. The burst length/accuracy system takes into account movement, use of sights, stance, and rested status. Blah blah. It's pretty good, I think.

Try it out, give comments (and maybe note if you have personal experience), and don't mention the word 'balance.'

DO NOT USE 0.3.4test ON SERVERS OR DEPLOY IT IN ANY WAY. This is only meant for testing the new recoil system.

http://www.ryanschultz.org/arma3/@tmr-0.3.3test.zip

Edited September 19, 2013 by Taosenai

[BinaryMan 1]

I come and check this thread every day for new updates. Feels great, love the recoil compensation.

[ZimZamFlimFlam 10]

Is there any fix in sight for the issue with custom FOVs and the weapon optics?

[Taosenai 11]

Yes, my very next project is to resolve that by developing unanimated versions of the optics. It's just a matter of getting the scaling right. The system will then detect if you have a normal or custom FOV and animate them if possible.

Hopefully, the only casualty of this is that the actual reticle won't be animated anymore. Reticle illumination will be tricky but may still be possible.

Edit: Eh, had an idea, maybe I can have my cake and eat it too.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Taosenai

[ZimZamFlimFlam 10]

Yes, my very next project is to resolve that by developing unanimated versions of the optics. It's just a matter of getting the scaling right. The system will then detect if you have a normal or custom FOV and animate them if possible.

Hopefully, the only casualty of this is that the actual reticle won't be animated anymore. Reticle illumination will be tricky but may still be possible.

Gr8 news m8, I rate this mod 8/8

[lao fei mao 21]

Yes, my very next project is to resolve that by developing unanimated versions of the optics. It's just a matter of getting the scaling right. The system will then detect if you have a normal or custom FOV and animate them if possible.

Hopefully, the only casualty of this is that the actual reticle won't be animated anymore. Reticle illumination will be tricky but may still be possible.

Edit: Eh, had an idea, maybe I can have my cake and eat it too.

--------Good to hear that, don't forget to fix the scope shade effect lost since 0.3version and apply it to SOS optic.

[Taosenai 11]

--------Good to hear that, don't forget to fix the scope shade effect lost since 0.3version and apply it to SOS optic.

I have found a workaround for the engine bug that changes the FOV of magnified optics based on the overall FOV, and everyone will now be able to enjoy the 2D animated reticles, including illumination, with no loss of features whatsoever. I found a very clever trick (if I do say so myself) to reliably detect if the player is looking through a magnified scope without doing a lot of expensive FOV checks and config reads. I also redid the drawing system to be faster and simpler. Everything is better.

Do note that if you're using a custom FOV, the magnification won't be quite right and so the mils and BDC won't be quite right. There's no non-hacky fix for this until http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13868 is resolved.

This revised system will be included in 0.3.3 after I do the SOS reticle (maybe the NLAW and RPG-32 as well) and get some more feedback on the recoil profiles. (The SOS reticle will be SFP for now -- implementing a FFP system is something I'd like to do, but the result isn't worth the dev time right now.)

[Windwalking 18]

Loving the new recoil. Spot on I say.

[Nikoteen 24]

Hi Taosenai,

Here's my first feedback : the new recoil is very good, professionally hand-crafted :)

I think I detected issues with dev build with single/auto shot mode from the LMG :

- No single mode visual indicator with Negev NG7, however it works.

- No sound with MX LSW when in single shot mode

- The 3-Shots burst of Kriss Vector fire around 6000 RPM (not sure if it's your mod though)

For testing purpose, I tried the Negev 7.62mm at around 80 meters in single mode and I think I have oddly a better control (less muzzle climb) than with 6.5mm (Katiba/MX).

In Full Auto, with compensation, I can group pretty well too at that distance with Eotech.

I think that thing should be controllable only when rested/proned like the Mk48 of Arma 2, especially with its monstrous ROF :)

Nothing more to say for the other weapons, they are all very good in handling, feels natural !

Edited September 19, 2013 by NikoTeen

[xealot 0]

Hello

I've got a question regarding your licensing choice, since GPL is a viral license would this mean that any official inclusion of TMR into a mod would automatically mean that mod would have to be licensed under GPL in order to not violate the license ?

Depending on your political views or personal values you might perhaps want to consider LGPL as an alternative if this was an unintended consequence?

We might just include an addon pack separate to our own mod for our community so the issue is bypassed alltogether but it would be nice with an official answer on the issue.

Oh and thank you for this wonderful addon either way, its really good.

- X

[Taosenai 11]

Hi Taosenai,

Here's my first feedback : the new recoil is very good, professionally hand-crafted :)

I think I detected issues with dev build with single/auto shot mode from the LMG :

- No single mode visual indicator with Negev NG7, however it works.

- No sound with MX LSW when in single shot mode

- The 3-Shots burst of Kriss Vector fire around 6000 RPM (not sure if it's your mod though)

For testing purpose, I tried the Negev 7.62mm at around 80 meters in single mode and I think I have oddly a better control (less muzzle climb) than with 6.5mm (Katiba/MX).

In Full Auto, with compensation, I can group pretty well too at that distance with Eotech.

I think that thing should be controllable only when rested/proned like the Mk48 of Arma 2, especially with its monstrous ROF :)

Nothing more to say for the other weapons, they are all very good in handling, feels natural !

1. Negev visual firing mode indicator fixed in Git, thanks. Inheritance mistake.

2. MX LSW single shot sound fixed, thanks.

3. Though it shows three filled bars, the Vector SMG fires a two round burst at 1200 rpm. That may be what is throwing your count off.

Based on videos, the Negev NG7 seems to be quite controllable when firing on full-auto. (It has heavier recoil than the 6.5mm rifles in my profiles. Remember that it's a heavier weapon, though, so these things don't scale linearly with caliber. Its rate of fire is only 50 rpm greater than the MX.)

Take a look here (skip to about 1:00):

He handles it pretty well, comparable to what I have in game. I do think I will increase the sharpness of the climb a bit in order to increase the skill needed to control it from an unsupported position in long bursts.

Hello

I've got a question regarding your licensing choice, since GPL is a viral license would this mean that any official inclusion of TMR into a mod would automatically mean that mod would have to be licensed under GPL in order to not violate the license ?

Depending on your political views or personal values you might perhaps want to consider LGPL as an alternative if this was an unintended consequence?

We might just include an addon pack separate to our own mod for our community so the issue is bypassed alltogether but it would be nice with an official answer on the issue.

Oh and thank you for this wonderful addon either way, its really good.

- X

TMR is intentionally licensed under the GPL with the intent that any mod which uses its code would also have to be GPL'd. I licensed TMR under GPL because I want to protect my work while encouraging others to learn from and use it.

However, just including TMR or parts of TMR (the pbos) as part of an addon or addon pack certainly does not mean that all of the other addons have to be GPL'd.

Example 1) You want to include TMR or parts of TMR together with some TPW stuff, a weapon pack, and some other things in one big zip file for your community. This is fine! You can even modify TMR as you like and redistribute the modified versions under the terms of the GPL. (Because PBOs are just archives, I don't consider it necessary to distribute source code separately.)

Example 2) You think I'm an okay guy but you've got some better ideas so you take the code of TMR, modify some things, and release QMR, your version. QMR is licensed under the GPL. You're fine!

Example 3) You think I am a real jerk so you take all of the code of TMR, modify some things, and release ZMR, your version. ZMR is licensed under the CC BY-NC-ND license (because you hate freedom) even though it includes GPL'd code from TMR. You are in violation of the GPL and I'll run you out of town.

If I'm misunderstanding your situation, let me know. Generally you should be able to do anything your want with TMR except make its source code non-free.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Taosenai

[granQ 293]

sounds good.. Swedish Forces Pack is at the cross road right now considering..

1) Make nothing special.. so its just addons

2) Make our own functions (which we already did, backblast, suicidebelts, weapon resting)

3) Adjust our mod to TMR and remove our functions, more or less make TMR a requirment

4) Take TMR ideas and implementate in our mod, so its "stand alone".. this is what I would prefer.

In theory, i guess nr 3 is awesome, since we could focus on swedish stuff and someone else focus on adding more realism, adjusting bis stuff.. but sooner or later it becomes like the alpha/beta phase in which you need to release updates and hot fixes not because you done anything wrong but the "background" (classnames, functions, variables) have changed.. so i prefer 4 or 2.

If I understand you correctly, you are ok with nr 4? In other words we might "steal" your guidance for the NLAW (with credits) without our models becomes GPL?

[Baleur 10]

Some weird issues.

Using the http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?160599-NATO-SF-and-Russian-Spetsnaz-WEAPONS-for-A3 pack.

When starting a mission (DUWS for example, same with others) it works to press Tab to deploy bipod on their machine guns for example. But when loading a save, it stops working.

It still gives me the indicator that the weapon is rested (sometimes), but Tab no longer does anything.

Furthermore, the bipod item (i figured that might resolve it by manually attaching it) doesn't seem to be able to be attached to those weapons from that pack.

Also, are your new disposable AT weapons adn teh NLAW stuff compatible with http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?161726-Armor-Improvement-System-(AIS) ?

Cheers!

[kurtz1 10]

In the PCML tutorial mission, the on-screen instruction gives the tracking plunger as undefined. I tried T and Tab keys without luck.

How can I get the PCML to track the target.

[13islucky 10]

In the PCML tutorial mission, the on-screen instruction gives the tracking plunger as undefined. I tried T and Tab keys without luck.

How can I get the PCML to track the target.

Check your "Next Target" keybind. That should do the trick, as well as work for bipods and hard resting.

[kurtz1 10]

13isLucky - that did it. Thanks a lot.