Can we get slight differences between weapon variants...

[Wolfstriked 11]

What I am talking about here is accuracy/velocity etc.I went thru weapons in A2 yrs back and found them all the same and now in the new improved A3 it seems like its the same thing again.I am no expert in firing weapons so I might make a few mistakes here so bear with me as the testing might not be super accurate but the results are.To test I went into the editor and started firing a Katiba 6.5mm at a tree in distance.The weapon shows it was sighted to 300m and I was having to use the 8 line to hit the base of the tree(800m?).I then switched to the carbine Katiba 6.5mm and its the exact same weapon in feel.To hit the base of the tree I had to use the 8 line again.I then took the LMG MK200 and its the exact same weapon again.Same bullet drop and same accuracy aka dead spot on accuracy.....at 800m for all 3 weapons.:butbut:Why have it simplified like this when simple changes can make the game more real and dynamic so that weapon choices actually have meaning?

Lower velocity for the carbine would mean more bullet drop and less damage?? And reduce its accuracy a good amount so that you feel a difference at 800m between the longer and shorter variants of same rifle.Since we can't simulate yet the differences of weapon length in regards to moving in tight spaces then change something else to compensate.Less weapon sway while standing and crouched with same sway while prone for shortened rifles compared with the standard variant is just an idea.

MK200,lower its accuracy a good amount and then lower its ridiculous prone recoil so that players can suppress with it with ease as it was engineered to behave like that.

I am hoping I am wrong in my testing so.....:D

Edited April 11, 2013 by Wolfstriked

[becubed 24]

To test I went into the editor and started firing a Katiba 6.5mm at a tree in distance.The weapon shows it was sighted to 300m and I was having to use the 8 line to hit the base of the tree(800m?).I then switched to the carbine Katiba 6.5mm and its the exact same weapon in feel.To hit the base of the tree I had to use the 8 line again.I then took the LMG MK200 and its the exact same weapon again.Same bullet drop and same accuracy aka dead spot on accuracy.....at 800m for all 3 weapons.

Stop and think about this for a minute. You want the sight on a weapon NOT to work as it should just to make the weapon feel different? If you are using a rifle and the sight says "use this mark to hit at 800 meters" you think it shouldn't hit that point when you use that mark?

[Defunkt 431]

You want the sight on a weapon NOT to work as it should just to make the weapon feel different?

No, that's not what he's saying, what he wants is for weapons to reflect the differences in their design. For a given round, heavier weapons should experience less kick and weapons with shorter barrels should have less power and accuracy to some degree.

Not really up with the current state of weapon configs but wasn't it the case that ballistics were (at least at one time) entirely dependent on the ammo configuration and nothing or not-much else?

[sproyd 2]

Haven't done the testing myself so will have to take your word for it.

In regards to accuracy I don't think there is a game that represents the disadvantages of shooting while moving, while fatigued, while injured and various stances better than Arma 3. Of course the bullet always goes exactly where the sight is honed on at the time of pulling the trigger but introducing randomness to that variable as well as all of the other variables would make it nie impossible to hit something. A trained solider should be fairly proficient with a rifle though so I'm happy with the current accuracy system

In regards to bullet drop I would be interested in real statistics as to the drop of 5.56mm between say a new M4 and a new M16. Does the barrel length between a carbine and an AR really make a big difference with muzzle velocity and what is the correlation to bullet drop at say 800m? Also it would be interesting to compare say an HK416 (5.56) with an HK417 (7.62) because obviously the larger round has more power behind it but is also heavier so I'd imagine the bullet drop curves overlap at some point.

Anyway I think these sorts of tweaks are not for Alpha stage. If anything they are for late Beta/Release Candidate/ post-launch balancing. BIS have shown longstanding post-launch report for A2 so I would expect this to continue g/f.

[Wolfstriked 11]

What I mean is shorter rifle=shorter barrel=less velocity.Longer barrels cause higher muzzle velocities that then translate into longer range accuracy and also killing power.Shorter barrels were made to allow faster movement in close quarters but it gave drawbacks of lowered effective ranges.This is just not modeled in the Arma engine and if I remember right the Arma engine just models velocity by ammo type.But I feel that Arma3 could add in a bit more simulation to the series.

When I am fighting some peeps across a valley at 800m with a carbine weapon I should feel less effective and wish I had a weapon with more power to travel the distance more effectively.I would think that more bullet drop,more dispersion and more loss of damage potential could all be had if the weapons themselves had their own velocity stats.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/21/us-rifles-not-suited-for-_n_584856.html

[seamusgod 1]

"I don't think there is a game that represents the disadvantages of shooting while moving, while fatigued, while injured and various stances better than Arma 3"

america's army 3, red orchestra 2.

[Wolfstriked 11]

The M16/M4=20in/15in barrel debate has never been settled as many reports state that its hard to feel a difference with it yet Marines have kept the M16 around for larger area battles oddly. Ak74/Ak74su is a different story though.16in vs 8in barrels is a large difference and I have read effective ranges of 200 to 300 for the shortened variant and same for the G36c carbine which also has an 8in barrel and a few people saying its worthless above 300m.I wanna see this modeled so its a choice to make strategically instead of for visual looks of weapon or to roleplay.

Now that we have much smoother CQB effects I think the "rifle collision mod" could be used to great effect here.Longer weapons only could get the lowering of weapon when near walls as a way to give the player a harsher time in CQB.Many have complained of the fact that they would be pissed if they couldn't shoot at an enemy who appears in a building due to their weapon being down.I say this is great and will make you enter buildings with more effort with longer barrel rifles.Its pretty smooth and not annoying in the way the character would get stuck as in A2 but instead just lowers the weapon.You wanna shoot then move back or enter at different angle......or choose a carbine variant.

[sproyd 2]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/21/us-rifles-not-suited-for-_n_584856.html

Good article. Well played.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Good article. Well played.

Thanks. :)

[scrim 1]

Honestly, I wouldn't care too much about it if I were any of you. You know, it's still an Alpha after all ;)

[gossamersolid 155]

You know, it's still an Alpha after all ;)

No... stop...

Saying "it's alpha" for every problem is getting real damn old (was old after the first day) and it's not the correct way to go about writing off every single issue we encounter.

Should open a ticket for this, Wolfstriked.

[twisted 128]

this is a good idea. while i don't think random dispersion is the way to go, it would be awesome to have the different weapon characteristics better modelled. Right now the weapons all do feel very samesy.

[Harzach 2518]

+1, start a ticket and I'll vote up.

Caught myself debating which MX variant to grab the other day, when I remembered that it really doesn't matter. It would be nice if the decision were based on more than aesthetics.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Truthfully I feel it needs to be fleshed out more and needs to be a thread that gets more replies.Been here since 2010 and seen many people ask for just the weapon lowering mod to be in default and nary a peep from a dev.For me to ask for the changes this would need is kinda big I think.Can't just write BIS we need more differences in weapons.;)

Move the velocity stat to weapon instead of the ammo and then also have ammo having its own slight modifiers.

Does velocity change then screw up the scopes?I mean if you change the velocity you then have more bullet drop and scopes may not work correctly.

Does game even model a change to damage with velocity?

Will people feud over the weapon lowering mod making there assault rifles a bit of a pain?

Will BIS be willing or able to do this.....Will Batman save Gotham in time?

[ht-57 0]

Arma is supposed to be a fps infantry concentric game that is closer to a mil sim... that said i to believe each firearm should be different and mirror their real world counter part insofar as bullet drop /effective range/ dare I say sound/etc.... otherwise you have a bf3 or cod that is leveling the playing field, which is ok if thats the games mission statement.

Does velocity change then screw up the scopes?I mean if you change the velocity you then have more bullet drop and scopes may not work correctly.

true it will screw up scopes. But irl trijicon [acog] optics makes a scope for 556 another for 765 and so on. also this is where elevation and windage may actually make a difference to the individual shooter, So I would much rather or expect a "DCS" style of game from arma3 then a bf3 style, At the end of the day that is why prefer bis over other titles.

[chortles 263]

Unfortunately devs have made it clear that this is not a "DCS: Infantry" kind of game.

[Harzach 2518]

Truthfully I feel it needs to be fleshed out more and needs to be a thread that gets more replies.Been here since 2010 and seen many people ask for just the weapon lowering mod to be in default and nary a peep from a dev.

While discussion is good, keep in mind that the devs don't always participate here. For all we know, they may already have seen this and are discussing it now. Or were thinking about it and working on it before you even posted. I can see your point about waiting until the concept is more fully formed, though presenting a too-specific concept also has its drawbacks. Strike when you think the iron is hot enough.

[scrim 1]

No... stop...

Saying "it's alpha" for every problem is getting real damn old (was old after the first day) and it's not the correct way to go about writing off every single issue we encounter.

Should open a ticket for this, Wolfstriked.

No, pointing out that this is an Alpha is very much called for when people are saying they want more things, or altered things. Seriously, it's in its baby steps, you can't whine about every bleeding thing that isn't perfect.

[Brain 12]

Criticism about the game's weapons is critizing a core factor which should be at least quite implemented in an alpha. The arch has to be built, before we can invite people on it. Or something like that.

[Harzach 2518]

No, pointing out that this is an Alpha is very much called for when people are saying they want more things, or altered things. Seriously, it's in its baby steps, you can't whine about every bleeding thing that isn't perfect.

There's no "whining" in this topic. Just someone raising the question of a pretty fundamental mechanic that is currently missing from the game, and which hasn't really been addressed yet. This is exactly what an alpha is for.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Someone posted a ticket on lowering weapon when near walls.Just the fact that this could possibly make it into engine opens up some modding capabilities where shorter weapons can have this removed.Maybe open a ticket that asks for velocity to be attached to the weapons instead as a start?Would love for BIS to do the polish but if they deem this kinda silly then allow modders to mod it in,even though I feel modding separates the community.

[PFC Magician 10]

What I am talking about here is accuracy/velocity etc.I went thru weapons in A2 yrs back and found them all the same and now in the new improved A3 it seems like its the same thing again.I am no expert in firing weapons so I might make a few mistakes here so bear with me as the testing might not be super accurate but the results are.To test I went into the editor and started firing a Katiba 6.5mm at a tree in distance.The weapon shows it was sighted to 300m and I was having to use the 8 line to hit the base of the tree(800m?).I then switched to the carbine Katiba 6.5mm and its the exact same weapon in feel.To hit the base of the tree I had to use the 8 line again.I then took the LMG MK200 and its the exact same weapon again.Same bullet drop and same accuracy aka dead spot on accuracy.....at 800m for all 3 weapons.:butbut:Why have it simplified like this when simple changes can make the game more real and dynamic so that weapon choices actually have meaning?

Lower velocity for the carbine would mean more bullet drop and less damage?? And reduce its accuracy a good amount so that you feel a difference at 800m between the longer and shorter variants of same rifle.Since we can't simulate yet the differences of weapon length in regards to moving in tight spaces then change something else to compensate.Less weapon sway while standing and crouched with same sway while prone for shortened rifles compared with the standard variant is just an idea.

MK200,lower its accuracy a good amount and then lower its ridiculous prone recoil so that players can suppress with it with ease as it was engineered to behave like that.

I am hoping I am wrong in my testing so.....:D

you do not know the engine operation? This is related to config, and engine can set each weapon and ammo. This feature already exists,not been implemented in the alpha, but it is a configuration issue

[Wolfstriked 11]

Didn't know that,thanks.Is this new to A3?If so that is good news and a sign that there is intent to model the differences between variants.:jump_clap:

[Wolfstriked 11]

Some more testing done just now and I think they just forgot to do a difference in dispersion for the MX rifles.Testing the Katiba and there is a difference in dispersion between normal and carbine version at 400m.If the issue is just that then I will write up a ticket but need to be sure.Not the funnest thing to do but would anyone else be able to test this?:rolleyes:

TRG-21 feels normal while TRG-20 is horrendous in accuracy.Was this intended?

Edited April 14, 2013 by Wolfstriked

[Wolfstriked 11]

Must be new as I just checked in game and the carbines definitely are a slight bitch to hit accurately at over 500m compared to regular rifles. :yay: This is great stuff an I love the little touches like this.Now if BIS could somehow simulate the reason why to take a carbine then I would be in heaven.Rifles getting weapon lowered when near walls with carbines not suffering this effect is one.I was also thinking that maybe LMG's and sniper rifles could get the old clunky arma2 movement where the weapon is lowered anytime you move when not walking.""The SAW is difficult to fire on the move, and at 22 lbs fully loaded, its not something infantrymen can dash forward and "hit and roll" with. "" That coupled with weapon lowering for them would make them a hassle in CQB.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Wolfstriked