Suppression Effect missing in ARMA3

[froggyluv 2136]

'This is the thread....the thread that neeeeveeer ends' - The Doors

Seriously guys this is like hearing two experienced attorney's hash, rehash, hash some more until they realize that everyone has already left the courthouse. All points are heard ad infinitum and really only input from a new witness read: Dev, would make any of this remotely debatable again.

[-Coulum- 35]

Then pick correct intent. So far it's

a) Handicap others because I'm being killed by people returning fire and I just can't hit them.

b) Training wheels for newcomers to force them doing what I'd expect in real-life.

As this thread goes on you pick one of them dependning on the arguments you have to counter.

@ScratcH334: Of course AI should simulate some kind of fear/stress/suppression.

Just... Wow. Can't believe that after all this entire thread you have failed to grasp what has been clearly said at least 50 times.

Yes, we want suppression cause "I just can't hit" (even though I constantly complain it is too easy to hit...).

And everyone who doesn't want suppression does so because a lwittle extra shake is too mwuch for them to handle. They want to be able to 450 headshot that squad who spent the last 10 minutes sneaking around his flank and waiting for them. They don't want to have to think about their movements and take caution, instead they want to walk into ambushes and still kill every one because they can wield the almighty mouse better - thats what elite soldiers do. And to put icing on the cake, when the ai happens to calmly line up shots, just as they argue the player should be able to do, they complain that the ai should act more realistically and accuracy be effected by incoming fire.

Why are people so unable to hold an open mind and hear (and comprehend) others?

Unbe-fucking-lievable.

this is like hearing two experienced attorney's

Hmm reminds me more of two little kids arguing: yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no you buttface, yes you poopoo head, yes, no, yes, no, ye...

Either way your right, its pointless (and hopeless).

[Anachoretes 10]

They want to be able to 450 headshot that squad who spent the last 10 minutes

If you produce supressive fire it's impossible. Or. You produce bad supressive fire.

And everyone who doesn't want suppression does so because a lwittle extra shake is too mwuch for them to handle

Psychologists call this projection. You fight with a convenient enemy. Do you consider yourself a real player, and any others newcomers and lamer? I want to see the soldiers, leading suppressive fire, depending on their expirience. Instead of shooting "somewhere close" and get bonuses.

AI need new behaviors. But humans already have it or need to teach it.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Anachoretes

[ak1287 1]

Hmm reminds me more of two little kids arguing: yes, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no you buttface, yes you poopoo head, yes, no, yes, no, ye...

Either way your right, its pointless (and hopeless).

That's basically every thread on the forums, and it usually comes down to the same 4 or 5 people making the same arguments and insulting (directly or implicitly) the people who disagree with them.

Calling someone a 'casual' because they want something you don't agree with is stupid.

Reporting someone's post because you disagree with the content is stupid.

[Anachoretes 10]

Reporting someone's who is considering all dissenters like noobs several time and provoke flame it's not are stupid. But it shows the level of interlocutors.

O.K.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Anachoretes

[sqb-sma 66]

On the other end there is those skill based shooters where it doesn't matter and the game doesn't "force" anything on you, frag based games.

Last night I spent a whole round on Project Reality just acting on a support (as in covering fire for advancing troops) squad getting only one kill! Firefights were longer, ammo was a real problem and getting shot was terrifying, you NEED help to get out of firefights.

And the whole discussion is focused on small arms only. What happens when explosives, cannons and artillery comes into play? Get bombarded and "stay cool"?

Exactly, PR style firefights are exactly the point I'm trying to get across, the fear etc etc. Good sounds, good supressive effects and good weapon handling make the difference between meh and "holy shit that was intense". The difference between a fragger where you just pop out and shoot, which Arma 3 feels like at the moment, and a realistic shooter, where being shot at is terrifying.

I'm really disappointed that none of you calmed down and stopped your fucking argument. If you're coming in to a discussion believing that your opponent is 100% incorrect then you shouldn't even open your mouth, every opinion is formed based off some fact, you need to find out what that fact is, help educated and be prepared to learn that you yourself are wrong. It seems like people on both sides of this argument are falling victim to the ol' back and forth. It's getting nowhere, it has to stop. If you're reiterating yourself from 10 pages ago... maybe the fact that your oponent didn't learn from it last time is a hint that they won't learn from it this time. And do you think you're ever going to persuade someone by name calling, or accusing them of name calling? No, if you do think that's gonna happen you need to check yourself. Because currently some of you are making fools of yourselves over what is admittedly a minor point in the game.

Please, try to understand your opponent's perspective. Stop arguing and start discussing.

And yes, some people on this forum won't be too intelligent, or mature, you can't stoop to their level if you run across someone like that, just try to help them out. Ok?

[Anachoretes 10]

start discussing

I haven't seen any concrete suggestions on what kind of effect people want. Eye blinking, blur, black screen, nausea, hand tremors. What was to discuss? If we are called community, we probably need to find middlepoint. "Make this because i'm cool and said this, or "game X" have it" is no argument.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Anachoretes

[-Coulum- 35]

Psychologists call this projection. You fight with a convenient enemy. Do you consider yourself a real player, and any others newcomers and lamer? I want to see the soldiers, leading suppressive fire, depending on their expirience. Instead of shooting "somewhere close" and get bonuses.

AI need new behaviors. But humans already have it or need to teach it.

For the record my reply to batto was dripping with sarcasm.This was simply to demonstrate the type of arguments that some are putting up.

You talk of being effective at suppressing someone. As it stands in arma the only way to effectively suppress someone is to kill them. You can't intimidate a good player into taking cover - and while it is true that he will eventually get killed for his actions it doesn't stop the fact that he is able to take down a couple guys before doing so. This means machinguns are useless and snipers win the fight. Not reflective of real life at all.

I haven't seen any concrete suggestions on what kind of effect people want. Eye blinking, blur, black screen, nausea, hand tremors. What was to discuss? If we are called community, we probably need to find middlepoint. "Make this because i'm cool and said this, or "game X" have it" is no argument.

[sigh]

Here's what I'd like: If a bullet comes very close to you there's an audible bullet snap, not these wussy "plink" sounds we have now, which make me think the bullets are hitting hundreds of meters away not going right past my ear, and your soldier flinches, misalignment the sights momentarily (very, very, momentarily). There's also a slight "blink" of blurryness like a much, much more subtle version of Darkest Hour/Red Orchestra Ostfront's blur.

If a large volume of rounds passes near, but not necessarily hugely close to, the player you'll experience a slight weapon shake and the same effects as being out of stamina (heavy breathing etc). These effects go away immediately once the enemy stops firing, so you could look over and shoot them as they reload.

Otherwise the effects themselves in arma 2 were pretty good - if anything they were other the top (the length it lasted for). lack of hold breath and extra twitching for a couple seconds after each shot would be fine.

If you dig even further back, there are many similar suggestions. I even made a demo script that could be used for "discussion". No one seemed interested.

Okay so in hopes of making this thread a bit more constructive, Ive made a suppression script that adds suppression effects to the player. It is only SP and pretty inefficient/inconsistent, but it does serve its job as an example of what a suppression system could look like in arma. If you have the time give it a shot and give feed back on what you like or don't like. Maybe we can formulate ideal effects so if BIS does ever decide to make an optional suppression system we already have a good idea of what it should look like.

Here it is

How to use it

Save a mission in the editor. Drop the "init.sqf" and "suppression.sqf" files within the Zip into the mission folder. You should now have suppression effects when you start up the mission.

What the effects are

When a bullet passes within a certain radius of the play (exact radius is unknown as explained below) several things will happen...

Screen edges will blur for 3 seconds - represents tunnel vission.

The camera will shake resulting in apparent weapons sway - really your point of aim doesn't change though it is disorienting. This lasts 3 seconds.

Your fatigue goes up creating more sway and lack of the ability to hold breath for 6 seconds. After which it returns to what it was prior to suppression.

Limitations of scripting/Why BIS needs to do this instead of a modder

The biggest problem is the overhead. Tracking every bullet from every unit is difficult/impossible to do efficiently via scripting (at least for my meager scripting skills)

Next is the unreliability of scripting. Riight now, many times per second the script tracks where the bullet is in relation to the player. Problem is, if a bullet whizzes by the player, one frame the bullet may be too far ahead of the player and then the next it is too far behind the player. Even though it whizzed near the player it is not picked up by the script. Basically the script can't catch everything. Thus it is impossible to say what the exact "trigger radius" is because if a bullet is close to the edges of this radius it is more likely it will pas through undetected. Right now My estimate is that the script [icatchesbullets within 2 metres or so of the player, though it would also depend on hw fast you are running the game.

I think however that you could make additions deep within the engine, this could be solved though, to make for consistent and performance friendly bullet catching.

The effects aren't ideal - For me to get extra sway I had to reduce the players fatigue. Obviously I want just sway without the lowered fatigue. Similarly instead of camera shake I would much rather the gun just twitch to another point once after a bullet passes by. Basically as a scripter you don't have as many options as to what exactly the effects are as BIS would.

I am interested to know what you guys dislike or like about the effects!

I don't expect anyone to have read back that far but there has been recent discussion about possible effects just no one seems to acknowledge it.

But hey now you know, so discuss away! I am done wasting my time though.

[dmarkwick 261]

As it stands in arma the only way to effectively suppress someone is to kill them. You can't intimidate a good player into taking cover - and while it is true that he will eventually get killed for his actions it doesn't stop the fact that he is able to take down a couple guys before doing so. This means machinguns are useless and snipers win the fight. Not reflective of real life at all.

Further to this, it occurs to me that effective suppression takes effective teamwork to achieve - and also effective teamwork to eventually overcome. Or - some not-quite-realistic elite showcasing of snapshooting under a "dangerous" situation. Gaming the game in other words :)

But, I understand some people like this gameplay - I do sometimes. Some fun gaming rather than fun-but-serious gaming if you like. All tastes can be catered for I believe :)

[Masharra 10]

I hate being a shit player. :D

[-ghost-tf 12]

I haven't seen any concrete suggestions on what kind of effect people want. Eye blinking, blur, black screen, nausea, hand tremors.

Here's what I'd like: If a bullet comes very close to you there's an audible bullet snap, not these wussy "plink" sounds we have now, which make me think the bullets are hitting hundreds of meters away not going right past my ear, and your soldier flinches, misalignment the sights momentarily (very, very, momentarily). There's also a slight "blink" of blurryness like a much, much more subtle version of Darkest Hour/Red Orchestra Ostfront's blur.

If a large volume of rounds passes near, but not necessarily hugely close to, the player you'll experience a slight weapon shake and the same effects as being out of stamina (heavy breathing etc). These effects go away immediately once the enemy stops firing, so you could look over and shoot them as they reload.

My idea of suppression effect would to be model the tunneling of vision and audio exclution that people do experience in a high stress situation. A single round wouldn't cause it, but as the intensity and proximity of rounds increase, so does the effect.

For: Because a life in game could be as short as 3-4 minutes with a 7 second wait for respawn there is not enough incentive to stay alive just through fear of death. A 7 second reprimand is just not enough. Due to this some artificial measure reflecting a loss of skills of the soldier due to fear/will-to-live should be implemented, this could be flinching from individual bullets (I'm all for this one, you're not going to aim accurately with rounds coming within a meter of you, in fact on most combat videos soldiers who see that kind of a close call drop everything and hit the deck and fuck returning fire I ain't dying here) or a buildup over time. Either way they serve the same purpose, allowing cover -> move -> fire tactics to work by effectively pinning and negating the ability for a unit to effectively return fire purely by shooting near them.

My conclusion? You can probably already see my bias? Without suppressive effects there's no punishment for popping out of cover when bullets are flying by, if you're a very quick shot (and now that Arma has no weapon inertia it is possible to snap shoot like in Arcade games, I'd prefer screen movement to always be non-inertial/unaccelerated but for the gun to always be inertial, even if aiming deadzone is off!) you can probably shoot the suppresser before he gets you. This is unrealistic, suppressive effects should stop this from happening. QED Suppressive effects have a role in this game.

There is alot of different ways to simulate a suppression effect, not just the A2 way or the BF3 way. For example if we at least had better sounds of bullet impacts close to your player, or better sounds for bullets flying past/over your head that would already help alot. The current sounds do not stimulate that "Oh shit I need to take cover or I will get shot" feeling, currently its more like meh.. Other then just the sounds an increased weapon sway while being suppressed would also be nice, again to simulate the fear you would have in real life that is preventing you from firing back till the enemy reloads or something. Conclusion? This effect doesnt neccesarily have to be done with the oh so feared blur effects, there are alot of alternatives..

Okay so in hopes of making this thread a bit more constructive, Ive made a suppression script that adds suppression effects to the player. It is only SP and pretty inefficient/inconsistent, but it does serve its job as an example of what a suppression system could look like in arma. If you have the time give it a shot and give feed back on what you like or don't like. Maybe we can formulate ideal effects so if BIS does ever decide to make an optional suppression system we already have a good idea of what it should look like.

Here it is

How to use it

Save a mission in the editor. Drop the "init.sqf" and "suppression.sqf" files within the Zip into the mission folder. You should now have suppression effects when you start up the mission.

What the effects are

When a bullet passes within a certain radius of the play (exact radius is unknown as explained below) several things will happen...

Screen edges will blur for 3 seconds - represents tunnel vission.

The camera will shake resulting in apparent weapons sway - really your point of aim doesn't change though it is disorienting. This lasts 3 seconds.

Your fatigue goes up creating more sway and lack of the ability to hold breath for 6 seconds. After which it returns to what it was prior to suppression.

Limitations of scripting/Why BIS needs to do this instead of a modder

The biggest problem is the overhead. Tracking every bullet from every unit is difficult/impossible to do efficiently via scripting (at least for my meager scripting skills)

Next is the unreliability of scripting. Riight now, many times per second the script tracks where the bullet is in relation to the player. Problem is, if a bullet whizzes by the player, one frame the bullet may be too far ahead of the player and then the next it is too far behind the player. Even though it whizzed near the player it is not picked up by the script. Basically the script can't catch everything. Thus it is impossible to say what the exact "trigger radius" is because if a bullet is close to the edges of this radius it is more likely it will pas through undetected. Right now My estimate is that the script [icatchesbullets within 2 metres or so of the player, though it would also depend on hw fast you are running the game.

I think however that you could make additions deep within the engine, this could be solved though, to make for consistent and performance friendly bullet catching.

The effects aren't ideal - For me to get extra sway I had to reduce the players fatigue. Obviously I want just sway without the lowered fatigue. Similarly instead of camera shake I would much rather the gun just twitch to another point once after a bullet passes by. Basically as a scripter you don't have as many options as to what exactly the effects are as BIS would.

I am interested to know what you guys dislike or like about the effects!

Ofcourse you didnt..

Reporting someone's who is considering all dissenters like noobs several time and provoke flame it's not are stupid. But it shows the level of interlocutors.

O.K.

Yeah, because posting vague posts and ignoring all past arguments (while at the same time asking for arguments) is definetly not provoking flame.

[dmarkwick 261]

I hate being a shit player. :D

Me too :) if only it wasn't so much damned fun ;)

How I fail is nearly always as entertaining as how I win.

[Anachoretes 10]

When a bullet passes within a certain radius of the play

Thanks for lists. But we have a moot point here. This "radius" will work anytime. But fact is, that "supression" is not working if you not see or not here bullets.

Any suggestions? I think, the good point to make overall parameter like "sanity". Loud noises (explosions, high-calibers, helicopters), and other sources will change this level depends of logic. Stressed, shocked, paralized. Bright lights makes you squint, for example. Make this in complex manner.

[Masharra 10]

god help me but Anachoretes has something of a point.

One doesnt need to actually shoot to suppress. i.e An apache is hovering over an open field. An infantry squad would be "suppressed" and unable to move out of fear the chopper firing.

[Anachoretes 10]

An infantry squad would be "suppressed" and unable to move out of fear the chopper firing.

Looks like the players must be supressed constantly, because enemy can be everywhere and start shooting anytime. Or Ctulhu. So, let's "stay with the fear" that changes phisical abilities, with a lower abstraction.

[sqb-sma 66]

Ofcourse you didnt..

Yeah, because posting vague posts and ignoring all past arguments (while at the same time asking for arguments) is definetly not provoking flame.

I saw those great descriptions and even the fantastic demonstration by Coulum which was... gosh a long time ago internet-wise! ;) I thought the idea, and the mod were fantastic progress. I'd like to see more of that, now, if there's nothing more to say then let the thread die in peace.

That was back in april, and I used the script extensively until it broke with one of the patches.

Video here:

I think everybody wanted a little bit of refinement etc which, as you correctly surmise from that quote of Coulum's, needs additional work from BIS.

Regarding what suppression consists of, obviously we need to have a limit, that's a good point Anachoretes, we can't simulate a soldier's anxiety that something's in the bushes because it's just too darn hard and if it were in it would react to everything, making the effect useless. It would be slightly easier to have a suppressive effect if an enemy is aiming at you, but then it could be used in a cheap way and, even though code wise it would be hard to implement, it would be hard to make it fair and beneficial to the gameplay. But just a simple thing from bullets whizzing too close? Easy(ish) to implement, beneficial to gameplay and (more debatably, I admit) to realism, I would personally like to see some model of suppression implemented by BIS, and I'm afraid the work will be delegated to modders. Must every good feature in the game be added by the next ACE (or ACE-like) mod? Why do we have to wait for that, instead of having them on release...?

[dmarkwick 261]

Suppression should definitely be limited to rounds that impact or pass close to units. It should also not rely on only post-processing to achieve it's purpose, although it can have a post-process component for those who like post-process.

Suppression as a result of nearby rounds passing/impacting close could best be realised by implementing a temporary aiming penalty that is accumulative IMO. For example, one single bullet passing/impacting close by would introduce a small aiming inaccuracy, but several rounds in a short time would introduce a larger inaccuracy, simply by adding to the current inaccuracy (rather than extending it).

I'm not talking about large gameplay-breaking amounts of inaccuracy here, just a small one that discourages players from thinking they can be sharpshooters at that particular time. Suppressed players need to be able to break out of their condition using effective return fire (note effective does not necessarily mean accurate :))

As a rough finger-in-the-air estimate for how long suppression lasts for per bullet, I might suggest 3-4 seconds, this gives the suppressed player(s) the possibility of more accurate fire reasonably quickly unless suppression is kept up. It also places a rough fire rate for the suppressing unit(s) to consider.

I don't see it as a gamebreaking mechanic useful for poor players or newbies, because effective suppression and it's eventual breaking both require teamwork. So therefore I see it as the opposite - a mechanic that introduces teamwork and communication, as well as reflecting a valuable real-life component of small arms combat, both for suppressor and suppressee :)

[Anachoretes 10]

Player's unit, for example, can have two "sensor" triggers - radius for bullets, radius for explosions. Or two for each if we want some fading. Then we, probably, need a copy of existing stamina system. Detach from movements, attach to triggers. Add proper effects for bullet's and contusion's. Adjust parameters for restoration and effects factors. Profit. It's cheap if possible. And giving feature to accumulate effects. Also can be added special states: stressed(long bullet supression - hands tremor, rapid breathing ), shocked(after semi-close explosion - crouching, partial deafness with faint ringing, short- pulsing blackouts), contusion (after close explosion - prone, complete deafness with strong ringing, long-pulsing blackouts).

Edited August 7, 2013 by Anachoretes

[dmarkwick 261]

Well, IMO you don't need suppression effects for explosions, because there's no "suppressing unit" to target. (Not with small arms anyway.) But, I guess you could add it to the post-process effect if you wish for some effect-based continuity.

[Anachoretes 10]

Explosions need own effect's, but they all affect your body, brain and sanity. So if you shocked by explosion, you probably can't be supressed by gunfire anymore because "Honey, i'm home" :)

[dmarkwick 261]

Well... yes.... but suppression effects (as discussed in this thread) isn't about simulating your sanity or reaction to fear, it's about discouraging certain game-related behaviors and encouraging real-life behaviors. As such, I don't count explosions as related. I mean - I'd be all for post-process blur/shake/dizzy for very nearby explosions and a deafening effect (as in I can't hear anything for a while) as a pure effect, but I don't see it has much gameplay mechanic advantage.

[metalcraze 290]

This discussion becoming more adequate is good and all but by now sadly it's pretty obvious we will never see suppression implemented.

[dayglow 2]

I've been playing modded Arma too long because that's how I remember near explosions already.

[Anachoretes 10]

but I don't see it has much gameplay mechanic advantage.

If your screen pulsing and you deaf(for 20-30 minutes) - it's affect for your playing. You became useless. But this mean more advanced wounding system and medicine. Explosions not just killing you or don't. Sometimes they encouraging you to be shocked or deaf. Unable to hear, watch properly.

it's about discouraging certain game-related behaviors and encouraging real-life behaviors

Yes. But "encourage" is a goal, and the "sanity\health" - just are tools for that. Why not to base on reality if it possible?

Edited August 7, 2013 by Anachoretes

[dmarkwick 261]

If your screen pulsing and you deaf(for 20-30 minutes) - it's affect for your playing. You became useless. But this mean more advanced wounding system and medicine. Explosions not just killing you or don't. Sometimes they encouraging you to be shocked or deaf. Unable to hear, watch properly.

Yes. But "encourage" is a goal, and the "sanity\health" - just are tools for that. Why not to base on reality if it possible?

I guess you could be right :) artillery is often used to "soften up" the enemy, perhaps your idea has merit :)