A question to the long-term future of our community

[zorrobyte 30]

With Windows 8 Blue, coming Windows 9 and further MacOS iOS integration it is known the death of the desktop and the move to cloud services is upon us. Intel in a few generations may cut off external GFX card compability completely while Nvidia and AMD continue to fall further behind or shift to cloud based soltions. Computing looks good for the LOL Beiber generation, bad for powerusers. If Gabe Newell has done anything right, it's the move to Linux as the last enthusiast platform.

A solution may be at hand..

With China, the most populated country and other Eurozones shifting to Linux as their preferred OS it would only make sense for VBS to go Linux for continued adoption. I'm personally waiting for Dx11 "D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain" build-out in WINE to play A3 under Linux as it's allready been proven the Arma3 engine (server) can be run on Linux (I run a A3 server via WINE with 0 issues). If BIS wanted to follow their distribution platform's lead and put a *little* effort into at least WINE Linux support it would safeguard Arma into the future and open more business opportunity (steam console anyone?). Such efforts would open Arma 3 into consumption on Mac and Linux platforms and beat sales expectations as it would be one of the very few big titles on the respective platform's Steam stores.

Some people may gawk at the Steam Hardware Survey and say it's a complete waste of time while others have a wider world view and can see the storm approaching. Some have a short prospect into the future and while yes, Arma 3 will do well in the years approaching; it will not have a chance in the computing future of tomorrow.

From a business prospect?

Invest some money into hiring a 3rd party company to create a wrapper for the game. It won't be terribly expensive and won't suck dev time away from BIS work. It worked well for Eve Online, Sims 3, etc; will drive sales; and at the very least, generate a ton of PR.

Edited March 29, 2013 by zorrobyte

[rogerx 11]

Still have this "D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain" using wine-1.6. I'll try upgrading wine but doubt the error has yet to be resolved.

I've posted instructions how to install Steam and ARMA 3 over here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?165710-Has-anyone-managed-to-get-ARMA-3-to-work-on-WINE-yet

Cross posting here:

I just tried installing Steam and ARMA 3 within wine-1.6 and I'm getting this same error.

Some additional steps required:

1) Install winetricks.

2) Start winetricks and install Steam using winetricks, which will install it within it's own bottle. (ie. $HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/)

NOTE: Steam requires addtional fonts, such as corefonts and tahoma.

ie. winetricks prefix=$HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/ list-cached

winetricks prefix=$HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/ list-installed

winetricks prefix=$HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/ steam

winetricks prefix=$HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/ corefonts

winetricks prefix=$HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/ tahoma

3) Install additional game required libs such as physx, xact and d3dx11_43

(ie. winetricks prefix=/home/roger/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/ xact)

4) Start the game:

WINEPREFIX="$HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/" wine $HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/dosdevices/c\:/Program\ Files\ \(x86\)/Steam/SteamApps/common/Arma\ 3/arma3.exe

Or start Steam:

WINEPREFIX="$HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/" wine $HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/dosdevices/c\:/Program\ Files\ \(x86\)/Steam/Steam.exe

ADDITIONAL COMMANDS

Configure Windows Settings and Libraries

WINEPREFIX="$HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/" winecfg

Restart/Shutdown O/S (when processes dump)

WINEPREFIX="$HOME/.local/share/wineprefixes/steam/" wineboot -f -k -s

I still can't get past the D3D11CreateDeviceAndSwapChain either.

[mistyronin 1181]

Computing looks good for the LOL Beiber generation, bad for powerusers. If Gabe Newell has done anything right, it's the move to Linux as the last enthusiast platform.

A solution may be at hand..

With China, the most populated country and other Eurozones shifting to Linux as their preferred OS it would only make sense for VBS to go Linux for continued adoption.

I don't know if this post is a joke or a serious one, in any case as today Windows is the main SO used in the world, by a vast percentage. Even more exaggerated if we see PC gamers.

So besides some futurology skills, do you have any serious data that prove your words? Or is this a ruse to get an Arma version for Linux?

[Tankbuster 1746]

Or is this a ruse to get an Arma version for Linux?

I suspect it's simply a way of asking for Linux without actually asking for Linux.

[antoineflemming 14]

Please. Linux... By turning to Linux, Newell is throwing himself into a pit. In his effort to make Linux relevant for gaming, he'll isolate the majority of Steam users who play games that are only PC. When Steam goes Linux-exclusive (inevitable as Newell hates MS so much), Steam will become irrelevant.

Desktops will never die. Maybe, just MAYBE, they will be replaced by super powerful laptops that don't overheat, but then again, that is doubtful. There is no way tablets and mobiles are replacing desktops. From a business perspective, as long as federal governments (at least the US) are using Windows, Microsoft won't go away, and PCs won't go away. Linux is great for your devices and such. But for computers, for desk jobs and such, no. Microsoft still has the best suite of business software, and Windows PCs are still widely used by a majority of people. And, seriously, Linux is great when you are writing your own programs, and are constantly dealing with under the hood stuff, but for the everyday user, Windows is still the most user friendly (yes, I've used Mac and Linux).

Oh, and this thread belongs in the Off Topic forum.

[novemberist 2]

And, seriously, Linux is great when you are writing your own programs, and are constantly dealing with under the hood stuff, but for the everyday user, Windows is still the most user friendly (yes, I've used Mac and Linux).

Oh, and this thread belongs in the Off Topic forum.

This is very untrue. Tell me one task you can achieve quicker or more conveniently in Windows 8 than in say Ubuntu! The Linux desktop has come a long way while Microsoft is currently deconstructing the classic desktop experience in favor of mobile devices etc.

If you are not dependent on specific software that will not run on Linux at all, there is no way Linux can be considered less user friendly or less suited for the everyday user.

[laverniusregalis 10]

With Windows 8 Blue, coming Windows 9 and further MacOS iOS integration it is known the death of the desktop and the move to cloud services is upon us. Intel in a few generations may cut off external GFX card compability completely while Nvidia and AMD continue to fall further behind or shift to cloud based soltions. Computing looks good for the LOL Beiber generation, bad for powerusers. If Gabe Newell has done anything right, it's the move to Linux as the last enthusiast platform.

Bollocks.

[Tankbuster 1746]

Bollocks.

Any well reasoned and erudite argument is not as good as this reply.

[rogerx 11]

Bottom line: Windows is only good for simple minded people wanting to click and play, or those wanting to make a quick buck.

I have used both Windows and Linux, and still find Linux (or Open Source) to be more stable and easier to work with when compared to proprietary code. The root of all Windows' problems is basically the proprietary code and Microsoft's intentions of continually hiding debugging functions, or other useful features from users. Microsoft is in the business of selling software and hardware, not to please or provide useful features for the end user. Windows 8 has pretty much made this clear. I shudder to think the reason why we are being made to patiently wait for Windows 8.1 patch while the patch has already been pushed to retail, the patch maybe slated to break Windows 8 desktop user experience even more than when Windows 8 was first launched! Windows XP was by far the best operating system they pushed. After Windows XP, they added a mess of nonsense eye-candy, effectively ruining the desktop experience. Many were further dismayed by the handling of 32 bit to 64 bit conversion, leaving 32 bit hardware dysfunctional while the open sourced hardware drivers available under Linux were easily recompiled for 64 bit platforms. (ie. Many Windows users having hardware only using closed or proprietary sourced hardware were stuck as usual, and forced to again buy newer hardware if they chose to upgrade to newer Windows versions. But I suspect rightfully so, as they chose their own ways.)

Those stating Windows is far better than Linux, must be gamers and Microsoft only coders. As for me, I've coded under many platforms, and will choose Linux every time for development work. Albeit, CYGWIN makes Windows bearable to work with for when a programmer is forced to work on Windows. But they're still plagued with having to escape the forbidding non-printing chars on command line console. (ie. I tend to create a Bash alias for change such directories, ie alias cd-arma='/cygwin/c/Windows/Program\ Files\ \(x86\) ....') It's what forces Windows users' to depend explicitly on the GUI, versus using the CLI. (ie. Command line interface, typing on the command line for those that know how to type, is usually much faster than those hunting for menu GUI items, with less mouse clicks.)

Bottom line, when the Bible was Open Sourced with the King James version, did it make the world better or worse? I also think both open source and proprietary code have useful features, but the end user will likely have more choices when using Open Sourced code. Basically the choice of living an honest life, versus a life of hiding in the dark.

Edited October 8, 2013 by rogerx

[chortles 263]

Bottom line: Windows is only good for simple minded people wanting to click and play, or those wanting to make a quick buck.

... so, Bohemia Interactive?

Windows XP was by far the best operating system they pushed.

Credibility gone.

[rogerx 11]

Chortles and your facts? Or are you just calling people names because it tries to make you look good?

I should cite, Windows is a pretty good operating system for disabled people, if they do not have use of their hands or are blind.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I'm looking forward to SteamOS, would be great if Arma3/4 appeared on it. No doubt you will be able to dual boot so you can have best of both or just stream A3 to the SteamBox?

[rogerx 11]

Ditto. I'm more productive within Linux here, and think the game would definitely benefit from map makers using Linux to publish maps more quickly.

To also further mention, useful debugging data can be more readily obtained and/or published.

[antoineflemming 14]

Bottom line: Windows is only good for simple minded people wanting to click and play, or those wanting to make a quick buck.

I have used both Windows and Linux, and still find Linux (or Open Source) to be more stable and easier to work with when compared to proprietary code. The root of all Windows' problems is basically the proprietary code and Microsoft's intentions of continually hiding debugging functions, or other useful features from users. Microsoft is in the business of selling software and hardware, not to please or provide useful features for the end user. Windows 8 has pretty much made this clear. I shudder to think the reason why we are being made to patiently wait for Windows 8.1 patch while the patch has already been pushed to retail, the patch maybe slated to break Windows 8 desktop user experience even more than when Windows 8 was first launched! Windows XP was by far the best operating system they pushed. After Windows XP, they added a mess of nonsense eye-candy, effectively ruining the desktop experience. Many were further dismayed by the handling of 32 bit to 64 bit conversion, leaving 32 bit hardware dysfunctional while the open sourced hardware drivers available under Linux were easily recompiled for 64 bit platforms. (ie. Many Windows users having hardware only using closed or proprietary sourced hardware were stuck as usual, and forced to again buy newer hardware if they chose to upgrade to newer Windows versions. But I suspect rightfully so, as they chose their own ways.)

Those stating Windows is far better than Linux, must be gamers and Microsoft only coders. As for me, I've coded under many platforms, and will choose Linux every time for development work. Albeit, CYGWIN makes Windows bearable to work with for when a programmer is forced to work on Windows. But they're still plagued with having to escape the forbidding non-printing chars on command line console. (ie. I tend to create a Bash alias for change such directories, ie alias cd-arma='/cygwin/c/Windows/Program\ Files\ \(x86\) ....') It's what forces Windows users' to depend explicitly on the GUI, versus using the CLI. (ie. Command line interface, typing on the command line for those that know how to type, is usually much faster than those hunting for menu GUI items, with less mouse clicks.)

Bottom line, when the Bible was Open Sourced with the King James version, did it make the world better or worse? I also think both open source and proprietary code have useful features, but the end user will likely have more choices when using Open Sourced code. Basically the choice of living an honest life, versus a life of hiding in the dark.

Sorry, but you're a coder who'd choose Linux and that explains everything. Those stating Windows is far better are every day users who don't code. And that's the majority of computer users, period. No game will leave Windows to go to Linux just because it's the hip thing to do. Your focus is the programming user. That's not who games or the majority of productivity and media products are focused on. Again, Windows is pretty user friendly. And the capability is there to get under the hood for the advanced user. Linux is only good for the coder. And as that's all you've mentioned, that explains why you'd choose Linux. So think again when you go labeling the majority of computer users (that includes most people in the business industry) as simple minded.

---------- Post added at 23:23 ---------- Previous post was at 23:21 ----------

Chortles and your facts? Or are you just calling people names because it tries to make you look good?

I should cite, Windows is a pretty good operating system for disabled people, if they do not have use of their hands or are blind.

That's exactly what you're doing by calling Windows users simple minded people living in the dark as blind, dismembered people. Maybe you should think about your words and stop being a Linux elitist, because nothing about using Linux makes you special.

[max power 21]

That's exactly what you're doing by calling Windows users simple minded people living in the dark as blind, dismembered people. Maybe you should think about your words and stop being a Linux elitist, because nothing about using Linux makes you special.

I think he's talking about the accessibility options in windows. Namely, the screen magnification tools, on screen keyboard, and the voice recognition interface.

[metalcraze 290]

Bottom line: Windows is only good for simple minded people wanting to click and play, or those wanting to make a quick buck.

Yes I want to just double click and see stuff work, not mess around with dozens of packages and configs for 2 hours to make simple things work.

Maybe Windows is popular because it just works? Maybe there's actually a reason why Linux is ignored? I'm sorry but Ubuntu gimmicks with rubber windows are just not what makes OS popular.

With Windows 8 Blue, coming Windows 9 and further MacOS iOS integration it is known the death of the desktop and the move to cloud services is upon us.

Nothing will happen to desktop and nothing will happen to Windows. Quit the panic.

Gee Microsoft made one OS to suit everything instead of wasting money developing separate ones like before. The end is upon us!

Edited October 9, 2013 by metalcraze

[rogerx 11]

Yup. I'm talking about accessibility. Albeit, I've heard Linux playing catch-up with accessibility programs and features. (Eh, can even read-off dmesg and boot messages via voice.)

And if any of you spent some time with computers, you'd realize I'm just lightly joking concerning some of Windows' lackings.

Obviously sensitive Army guys needing a hug. ;-) ... Thanks Max for stepping in there.

[dale0404 5]

[rogerx 11]

Even though I've seen that graph on Wikipedia, I'd have to disagree with it and cite it as inaccurate as far as it's comparison of Linux versus Windows users, based on the amount of source code written and maintained.

A little more accurate and maybe unbiased statistic might be the following:

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

But even these results might be slightly augmented, as people might configure their browsers to submit an "Windows IE" browser string.

Another thing quite easily forgotten, is many of the Linux users also utilize Windows O/S as well, as they are on a PC platform. As such their usage count would also increment the Windows' users category as well.

This appears more accurate:

http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm

What's even more interesting, this Squid report seems to directly conflict with your above graph from wikipedia.org, for which wikimedia.org runs.

There's also more obvious indicators Linux or Open Source is far more popular than you would believe. (Read down into the "Usage share of operating systems" Wikipedia article.)

This is starting to sound like a can of worms, but you guys opened it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Net_Applications

Sounds as if that Net Applications graph is questionable. Looking into this further, and I think that graph is bogus. About the only seemingly accurate fact within that graph, is the ratio of Windows 7/8 versus Windows XP users.

Edited October 9, 2013 by rogerx

[maffa 29]

Excuse me, is Win8 this successful? i hear nothing but complaints, and i have no intention to move from Win7, which i have because it was better than my Xp, which in turn was better than Vista, which i never moved to because it was crap and i coundlt be bothered with it (and the same did hundred thousands of MS users).

I understand MS would like to interest us consumers to move to its new OS, but i am not a MS tablet user, i need mouse and keyboard to work, i dont want to put my private stuff into a cloud, and even if the new direct X will be released for Win8 i will keep on win7 until MS stops trying to shove its marketing choices down my throat. Markets already punished Vista, it can do it twice with Win8.

And i see no reason to change OS altogether, unless Ms will go so astray and for too long that the only way to keep on would be changing OS.

[novemberist 2]

The question is not whether Windows will die anytime soon or whether developers decide to develop software/games for linux only one day. But the significance of Linux on the desktop will continue growing the way it has grown in the past years even though its market share is still considerably low. With more and more commercial software appearing on Linux and especially Valve and Nvidia jumping the bandwagon, people get more and more reasons to consider Linux as their primary OS, because they don't have to do without good commercial software and good drivers for their expensive hardware anymore. So the question is not which OS is better, but IF you really have an alternative as a desktop user, if you are fed up with windows or if it doesn't work for you. And you do!

Two years ago, there were maybe 10 commercial games that ever made it to the Linux platform, most of which only got a shabby port by third party developers. Now there are more than 300 genuine commercial games for linux in the steam library alone (including Valve's almost complete backlist of titles). This number will just keep growing and one day even the big companies will realize that investing a couple of extra bucks into making a linux port will open a considerably big market for them, because a lot of people have switched to Linux inevitably.

Linus Torvalds gave a good explanation in a lecture on youtube to the question why Windows still has such a high market share compared to Linux...and it has got nothing to do with convenience or fancyness of the OS itself. It's simpy the number of pre-installs. The average user has never installed an OS himself, nor is he ever inclined to do so. Since most PCs you can buy nowadays still come with Windows pre-installed, people will just use whatever OS is on there never thinking about the alternatives that might exist. (Same goes for Android on mobile devices)

That being said, Windows 7/8 is a pretty good OS, but Linux on the other hand is a great OS with a much better design philosophy and modularity. I'd never miss anything if Arma just ran on Linux...

Edited October 9, 2013 by novemberist

[chortles 263]

nor is he ever inclined to do so.

That's all the more reason for Arma to stay on Windows. (Amusingly enough, this reminds me of the developer studio's CEO saying "I myself am too ‘lazy’ to manually download and maintain future updates of user-made content. Fortunately, this is now no longer an issue. I can grab a player-created mission in just one click via the Steam Workshop system." :lol:)

[clydefrog 3]

Worst thread ever and really seems like it has hardly anything to do with arma 3, it's just a windows vs linux debate. I think this should be moved to the Off Topic forum as antoineflemming said. You also may as well rename it to "Linux is better than Windows - discuss" since it's a more descriptive title.

Edited October 9, 2013 by clydefrog

[dale0404 5]

Worst thread ever and really seems like it has hardly anything to do with arma 3, it's just a windows vs linux debate. I think this should be moved to the Off Topic forum as antoineflemming said. You also may as well rename it to "Linux is better than Windows - discuss" since it's a more descriptive title.

Got to agree there.

[novemberist 2]

That's all the more reason for Arma to stay on Windows. (Amusingly enough, this reminds me of the developer studio's CEO saying "I myself am too ‘lazy’ to manually download and maintain future updates of user-made content. Fortunately, this is now no longer an issue. I can grab a player-created mission in just one click via the Steam Workshop system." :lol:)

It can stay on Windows but also get a Linux port for those who prefer it, what's the problem? No one is proposing Linux-only. If BI or any other developer decide they will ignore Linux in the future, they will not receive any money from me anymore and a handfull of other people. This won't matter much for them from a business perspective, but it will make it easier for me to look for alternatives from developers who respect the linux platform. You can stick with whatever OS and software you prefer, no one is forcing you to switch to linux.

I don't know what the purpose of this thread is either, but if it is merely showing BI that there is a certain demand for a Linux version of their product, then let's discuss. Arma Tactics has a native Linux version by the way...

Worst thread ever and really seems like it has hardly anything to do with arma 3, it's just a windows vs linux debate. I think this should be moved to the Off Topic forum as antoineflemming said. You also may as well rename it to "Linux is better than Windows - discuss" since it's a more descriptive title.

What's wrong about discussing the probabilites of Linux versions for future BI products? If you don't agree, simply ignore this thread or give your opinion. I agree about the misleading thread title though.

Got to agree there.

Not like you have done anything to prevent this thread from drifting into a "Linux vs. Windows" discussion by posting statistics about the alleged irrelevancy of linux...

Edited October 9, 2013 by novemberist