Thrown and launched grenades in A3... a significant step back from OA???

[madrussian 347]

First of all really enjoying ArmA3 Alpha! So many things work so well now that when something doesn't it really feels out of place. Throwing hand grenades and firing under-barrel launcher grenades in ArmA3 is one such area, with both pretty messed up currently imo.

Hand grenades have 3 major problems atm:

1. First and foremost, as mentioned on a related thread we have no means to throw hand grenades harder or softer. This was working brilliantly since OA, and it's extremely frustrating now!
   
2. Most importantly, in A2 thrown grenades leave the body at a significant upward angle, allowing you to better see what you were throwing at. From OA, there were two indicators on screen to help you perform a reasonable grenade throw. Upper indicator ("circle") gave you a sense of what angle you were throwing up to. Lower indicator ("dot") gave you a sense of where your grenade might land, based on how hard your throw was. In A3 currently there is no such indicator system, and thrown grenades leave the body straight down the middle of the screen. To aim any thrown grenade now in A3, you have to suddenly pitch the camera up to get a proper thrown arc, throw, then suddenly pitch the camera back down to restore your view, all which ironically takes your eye completely off what you're throwing at. Again, thrown grenade exiting arc and indicators worked so well in A2, why mess it up so bad for ArmA3?
   
3. When attempting to throw a grenade from 3rd person in A3 now (due to the straight exit angle mentioned above), your own body obstructs the thrown path of the grenade. Horrible.
   

Launched grenades have 2 major problems atm:

1. Launched grenades in ArmA3 3rd person suffer (as with thrown grenades) from your own body obstructing your view of the projectile path of the grenade. Slightly different reason here. Just double checked this: In A2 3rd person, the camera lines up exactly with the right side of your helmet, thus allowing you an unobstructed view of what you're launching a grenade at. In ArmA3 however, the 3rd person camera lines up well to the left of the right side of your helmet, effectively obstructing your view.
   
2. Also, the 3rd person indicator for launched grenades in ArmA3 is very low, seems to correlate little with where the launched grenade actually ends up, and is again completely obstructed by your body.
   

Solutions:

1. Reinstate the thrown grenade indicator system with adjustable throwing power from OA.
   
2. Reinstate the significant upward exit angle that thrown grenades leave your body at from A2/OA (as opposed to the current A3 "straight ahead" method), so we can see what we're throwing at!
   
3. For launched grenades (and can apply to all weapons really), shift or pivot the camera slightly (ever so slightly) to where the weapon direction vector is no longer obstructed by the player's head / helmet in 3rd person. This is especially important for slow rounds like launched grenades that drop significantly.
   
4. Rework the 3rd person grenade launcher indicator, so it's more intuitive as it was in OA.
   

Anyway I don't want to sound negative and nothing against the devs, this is an awesome game! Please consider changing the thrown and launched grenade operation back to like OA, which worked so well. :)

Note - The one improvement I see so far in A3 in this area is the 1st person grenade launcher aiming sites. Also, let's keep the discussion here on thrown and launched grenade operation in A3 and previous titles, and refrain from comments about whether people prefer 1st or 3rd person that cross the line into judging how everyone else should play. I happen to like both 1st and 3rd person, as I'm sure many others around here do. Thanks!

[Fuse 1]

BI says the grenade throw is a placeholder. A few players have voiced their concerns that BI may still make it too simplistic since one of the devs said they liked the current system more than A2, but I think they're taking the comment too literally. I doubt that means they are going to essentially leave it as is, and if they do then I'm betting we'll still have plenty of time before launch to yell at them for it. :)

I haven't noticed these issues because I rarely fire in 3rd person. I guess the difference isn't enough to be noticeable when just running around?

I prefer it centered as it gives me a better field of view, so I wouldn't like to see it moved much without being an option. Not trying to start a debate, just saying that is why I wouldn't like to see it permanently locked to the right.

Some games have had a slider that lets you move the 3rd person camera from left to right. Maybe that's worth consideration here?

[Scoggs 1]

I just want Dyslexci's grenade throwing model.

And for launched I want the way Americas Army 3 did it.

[zodd 14]

I personally like the concept of the 'g' button for grenade as it is a lot easier to get in a pinch than cycle through using the 'f' key. Perhaps 'g' could be used to select the grenade then use mouse as per A2.

I also think throwing it straight forward is much better - There have been several times in A2 where a grenade has bounced back due to something in the flight path near me (eg. door frame indoors). Yes you have to look up a bit to throw it but it avoids the unexpected obstacles (you wouldnt throw it straight into a door frame in real life....)

I think the ACE grenades had an interesting concept (Different throw modes - high arc, flat or underarm) which could potentially just be cycled through using the 'f' key if the 'g' key became the grenade selector/toggle.

I have not noticed the issue in 3rd person as you say (I mainly flick to 3rd person to appreciate the cinematic quality!) but that may end up being a slight drawback of 3rd person? (You can use the optics key to jump to the grenade launcher sights, unsure about hand grenade?)

Agree 100% about the 40mm sights - quadrant reflex sight is spot on!

[madrussian 347]

BI says the grenade throw is a placeholder.

Oh that's great news! Curious, which part(s) of grenade throw did you see discussed as being placeholders?

I haven't noticed these issues because I rarely fire in 3rd person. I guess the difference isn't enough to be noticeable when just running around?

When throwing a grenade from 1st person in A3, you should see a noticeable difference from how it operated in OA. In OA, when you switch to a hand grenade, you get that upper circular indicator (even in 1st person), which is quite a ways UP from the central crosshair, and the central crosshair turns into a dot. Most significant, when you actually throw your grenade, it flies up towards the circle, not directly straight ahead like in A3. Having a thrown grenade fly upwards is essential imo, so you can see what you're throwing at! (in 1st person and 3rd, due to extreme arc of the grenade as gravity pulls it down)

Also, in OA you had fine control over how hard your throw was. In A3 currently it's all tied to a key, thus completely binary. Throw at full power or not at all! (This too applies to 1st and 3rd person.)

On the other hand, the issues with obstructed view I detail above are problems with the 3rd person view only.

I prefer it centered as it gives me a better field of view, so I wouldn't like to see it moved much without being an option.

Agreed, I'm talking about an extremely slight shift in 3rd person perspective only, moving the cam slightly to the right (so your head does not obstruct slow moving projectiles that you fire, like launched grenades as they drop.

Some games have had a slider that lets you move the 3rd person camera from left to right. Maybe that's worth consideration here?

Agreed, more options is always better. I personally like my 3rd person view just like A2 has it. With my soldier right in the middle, crosshair a bit above and slightly to the right, so I can see what I'm shooting. A3 is very close to this now, just needs a small tweak. Part of this is due to the night vision goggles which stick out further than before. :)

EDIT:

I just want Dyslexci's grenade throwing model.

And for launched I want the way Americas Army 3 did it.

Interesting, curious how these two work?

I personally like the concept of the 'g' button for grenade as it is a lot easier to get in a pinch than cycle through using the 'f' key. Perhaps 'g' could be used to select the grenade then use mouse as per A2.

I think the ACE grenades had an interesting concept (Different throw modes - high arc, flat or underarm) which could potentially just be cycled through using the 'f' key if the 'g' key became the grenade selector/toggle.

Two great ideas!

Edited March 27, 2013 by MadRussian

[Fuse 1]

Oh that's great news! Curious, which part(s) of grenade throw did you see discussed as being placeholders?

You made me realize I had heard it said at least a dozen times on these forums, but never actually read the article my self! From Co-Creative Director Jay Crowe, via Gamespot:

"One good example is the way we handle throwing grenades in the ARMA III alpha," Crowe continues. "The feature isn't complete, and in its current state, I think it's a bit too simplistic. You press a key, the grenade is tossed, whatever animation state you're in. I think that's a legitimate example of where we haven't quite yet hit the right balance. Of course, it's a big improvement over ARMA II's turgid system. I basically didn't use grenades before, and now I do, so that's progress! It's more instinctive and usable, which is why we've left this WIP feature in the public build. However, for me, it's probably now too easy. There's not enough depth of control: you can't cook the grenade or manipulate the flight in any truly meaningful way."

When throwing a grenade from 1st person in A3, you should see a noticeable difference from how it operated in OA.

My bad, I should have been more specific with my reply. I haven't noticed the difference in 3rd person camera position just from casual play. I only fire from 3rd person in emergencies and you say it's a very slight change, so I'm going to have to play the two back-to-back and pay more attention. I definitely can tell the difference in the grenade throw. :)

[antoineflemming 14]

I just want Dyslexci's grenade throwing model.

And for launched I want the way Americas Army 3 did it.

The way America's Army 3 does it simulates realism and is pretty effective.

[kilroy the nerd 14]

While I despise the gunplay of Heroes and Generals, I love the grenade system. You can cook the grenade and in doing so, it gives you a line of sight as to where/how the grenade will fly. VBS2 also has this.

In a world, where terrifyingly realistic and in some opinions (such as relatives who have used the software) boring military simulators have more accessible features than their "gamier" counterparts.

I do miss powering from A2, but at least I can lean and throw a grenade that way. Also, the angle changing of the GL sights I find a great improvement. But otherwise, you have some mighty points.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Kilroy the Nerd

[max power 21]

IIRC, Infiltration mod had a neat system where you used the thumb on your non-throwing hand to aim.

[Gnalvl 1]

I'm glad to hear the current grenade system is a placeholder, as IMO the offhand grenade is horrible. It's way too quick - yes, modern tactical slings allow you to essentially just "drop" your rifle and toss a grenade , but you've still got to pull the pin and wind up a pitch. Given how little time is taken to wind up, the grenade also travels way too far. I definitely hope to see this improved in the future...tapping G as a quick bind to reach grenades is fine, but the time taken to pull the pin is crucial. At that point, you may as well use the time pulling the pin to give the player a chance to pick overhand or underhand throw, cooking off, etc.

[chortles 263]

Oh that's great news! Curious, which part(s) of grenade throw did you see discussed as being placeholders?

The TL;DR of what Fuse quoted is that Jay Crowe considers the grenade throw is WIP and currently "a bit too simplistic", not "quite yet hit the right balance" because not enough depth of control: you can't cook the grenade or manipulate the flight in any truly meaningful way"... but still "a big improvement over ARMA II's turgid system" enough that it was left this way for the public alpha release.

In a world, where terrifyingly realistic and in some opinions (such as relatives who have used the software) boring military simulators have more accessible features than their "gamier" counterparts.

There was probably a contract clause about those features involved. ;)

[Scoggs 1]

EDIT:

Interesting, curious how these two work?

Demonstration of Dslyecxi's grenade proof of concept.

America's Army 3 Grenade launcher

http://youtu.be/A91OuHfh8oI?t=33s

[afp 1]

I remember when I used to play Counterstrike, like 10 years ago, that you could just put the grenade in any 10cm hole you wanted, near or far, without any visual indications, just by mouse cursor. While the "power" was kind of fixed, you just could set the "distance" by the "height" from the ground of the mouse cursor.

The more complicated it becomes, the worse.

[pvt_ryan 10]

I notice that he dismisses the throw strength "charge up" option without much stated reason for this. I can see a couple reasons why this system might have a couple advantages and drawbacks in comparison to Dslyecxi's system.

First, instead of two distinct levels of force/trajectory with which you can throw a grenade, a charge-up would ostensibly allow a more versatile continuous spectrum of possibilities. However, this versatility comes at the cost of the annoyances of a time-based system (i.e., "Do I really want to have to be paying this much attention to how long I am holding the grenade key during a combat situation?").

A charge-up would also potentially solve the issue with grenade throws elapsing too fast in some regards, depending on its implementation. That said, this issue could of course also simply be solved with more cumbersome animations for grenade throwing, but if there is going to be a long warm-up period anyway then by some arguments you might as well be letting the player tweak throw strength during this time.

However, a system that doesn't restrict grenade trajectories to certain preset arcs would seemingly fall victim to another complaint I've heard (either in this or the other thread, I don't remember), which is the argument that the initial direction of the grenade (before it is affected by gravity) shouldn't coincide perfectly with the viewing angle because this leads to players having to aim up into the sky (hopefully I've paraphrased this correctly). I suppose that in this case grenades could always be thrown at the same angle (probably around 30-45 degrees) with the charge up directly affecting the distance of the throw... but I'm really not sure whether this would be preferable.

[fraczek 4]

Re: Chargeup - I really disliked it in A2, only marginally less in ACE. Any time based system is IMO bad:

• It's not intuitive
  
• You can "overcharge" by mistake or misjudgement
  
• You have to wait for a loong time before the throw
  

A2 system was totally unpredictable in my opinion, because of the weird trajectory and unintuitive throw strength selection. ACE was quite better, but the chargeup still aplies.

Just give us a point'n'throw system with well enough randomness so you can miss, perhaps more so if exhausted/running/injured in hand. Something like Dslyecxi's, but with the randomness and shakiness "thrown in". If done properly, it wouldn't be anything CoD like hopefuly.

• Give us a small countdown before you can throw another grenade (RL: take it out of pouch/whatever, bigger if it is in backpack - that should apply to all inventory items in backpacks - or make items in backpack like ACE - unpack first), and a small countdown after pressing the G key that would account for taking the grenade out, priming it, with possible cooking it by holding the key second or two.
  
• Do not force us to select different throw modes - incorporate the throw modes (underhand, roll, ...) into the aiming to make it intuitive and not distracting - having to select a mode while under fire distracts from the immersion (sidenote - same with UGLs, these need a separate key bind for them different from single/burst/auto selection quite badly).
  
• Aim the 'nade to where the cursor is (lineIntersect anyone?) automaticaly, but add random inaccuracy, and shaking the aim when running/exhausted/injured (more so if in hand). In RL, you also look at the target you throw something at, and the brain-hand does the job (more or less <g>).
  

TL-DR:

No ChargeUp (unrealistic,kills immersion,waits)

Throw Where You Aim & Pray It Hits (no Olympic Champion, might miss, more at distance)

No Throw Modes (do these by aiming: if at feet, roll it, if at sky, over the wall - your fault there was no wall, otherwise on target).

Simple Cooking (hold G before release)

Simple Side Throw (hold Lean Q/E, hit G)

No Nade Spamming (no magic 'nade hand, gonna have to take it out first which takes a second, prime it, flex hand)

Edited March 27, 2013 by fraczek

[madrussian 347]

Some great ideas and discussion. Seems we have people that like thrown grenade exit at both upward angle trajectory -and- straight ahead. Making it optional sounds good to me. I'll probably make a small mod (personal use?) with upward trajectory for player thrown grenades in the mean time, until we get something official.