Arma 3 Alpha lacking Arma 2's immersion and fear factor.

[froggyluv 2136]

It's not that hard...

Disagree. It's extremely hard to recapture the magic formula that is so effective the first time. Why do you think billion dollar producers have such a hard time repeating a successful horror movie? I also play CWR2 and it is very enjoyable -for different reasons many of which you have already listed. 'AM' is still tough -but now I see it as, "Oh, they've got move orders while he's got a Hold or a Guard order..." -not the same.

Frankly I jumped a little when an AI shot at me from inside a house and shattered the glass (awesome 3d headphones amped up) as it was completely foreign and unsuspected -that was just in the editor (Arma 3). New effects, sounds etc.. can still illicit these responses but I will be VERY surprised if any mission does that on its own.

Edited March 20, 2013 by froggyluv

[sunrrrise 14]

I could agree that sprinting is a little too fast BUT I hope that BIS will NEVER EVER be back to that clunky doom-like movement from OFP/ArmA/ArmA2.

[metalcraze 290]

I guess CWC isn't that surprising anymore because you've played through it once (if not more). You know how it will or may go. BIS just needs to push boundaries and deliver new stuff. Unlike movies ArmA does not limit the designer in almost any way.

But there's one thing that campaigns past CWC and Res lacked.

In OFP missions often were like "yeah we are pushing those russ.... OH SHI- fall back fall back!" or even when OFP randomness resulted in the death of an assisting black op in one of stealth missions so you had to go and do his job which made a mission a lot harder. When your squad died on a typical 'clean the village' mission due to randomness of OFP - instead of seeing the failure screen you were ordered to retreat - and you had a lot of enemies on your back shooting at you as you were running. And with all that you had 1 save which you naturally used much earlier.

I think it's the sense of fighting an uphill battle against a superior enemy that was missing in ArmA series since OFP.

[andersson 285]

I have had the feeling of "oh no not more enemies again.." from armed assault onwards. It was tough in OFP, because it was tough. In the newer games it feels hopeless as it is just too much enemies and too small margins. I'm not interested to win a mission just because its hard, I want to be in a mission because I enjoy it. Hopeless Ramboing with small margins is not fun.

[tpw 2315]

I have to admit that now the first flush of enthusiasm for the improved graphics and presentation has worn off I find the things like high speed gliding inertialess movement (often not synchronised with movement noise), and poor positional audio and speed of sound simulation to be increasingly frustrating and immersion breaking.

The problem with this alpha is, we have no clear way of knowing whether a feature we have issues with is a) bugged, b) placeholder c) final implementation but open to refinement or d) final and set in stone. You might be able to glean some of this info from interviews or posts, but there is no changelog I can see that clearly spells it out. I guess it gives the developers some manouevering room, but it makes it difficult to report issues and problems and gives the "stop complaining, it's an alpha" crowd too much to work with.

I have no doubt that finding the universally agreed upon perfect balance between realism and playability is impossible. It's probably a pipe dream, but I'd love to see a realism slider. All the way to the left and you are an inertialess head on a stick with instaheal medpacks etc, all the way to the right and you have Arma2 levels of inertia, movement speed, negative mouse accel, head bob, more realistic health etc. Everyone gets realism/playability balance they like.

Currently it appears that the devs are mainly focussing on stability and crashes, how long it takes them to address core simulation and realism issues is anyone's guess.

[jmac6888 1]

The problem with this alpha is, we have no clear way of knowing whether a feature we have issues with is a) bugged, b) placeholder c) final implementation but open to refinement or d) final and set in stone. You might be able to glean some of this info from interviews or posts, but there is no changelog I can see that clearly spells it out. I guess it gives the developers some manouevering room, but it makes it difficult to report issues and problems and gives the "stop complaining, it's an alpha" crowd too much to work with.

I have no doubt that finding the universally agreed upon perfect balance between realism and playability is impossible. It's probably a pipe dream, but I'd love to see a realism slider. All the way to the left and you are an inertialess head on a stick with instaheal medpacks etc, all the way to the right and you have Arma2 levels of inertia, movement speed, negative mouse accel, head bob, more realistic health etc. Everyone gets realism/playability balance they like.

Currently it appears that the devs are mainly focussing on stability and crashes, how long it takes them to address core simulation and realism issues is anyone's guess.

Whilst I agree with a lot of the things you are saying, IMO they should be focussing on stability and crashes first... This will be the first time that A3 has been really stress tested and working in a software dev company myself I understand 100% why that's the main point of focus.

Realism and simulation issues I think will mainly be config changes to existing scripts etc...

I think once they iron out crashing and stability they will then address tweaks to realism. Lets face it, if it kept on crashing constantly everyone would be complaining about that and you wouldn't even be able to test the realism.

I would guess Alpha for stability fixing, Beta for realism and config changes?

[ak1287 1]

Whilst I agree with a lot of the things you are saying, IMO they should be focussing on stability and crashes first... This will be the first time that A3 has been really stress tested and working in a software dev company myself I understand 100% why that's the main point of focus.

Realism and simulation issues I think will mainly be config changes to existing scripts etc...

I think once they iron out crashing and stability they will then address tweaks to realism. Lets face it, if it kept on crashing constantly everyone would be complaining about that and you wouldn't even be able to test the realism.

I would guess Alpha for stability fixing, Beta for realism and config changes?

That would be fitting with most other companies development phases.

[Fuse 1]

The website read as them wanting us to test both balance and performance. "Your objective is to locate performance, balancing and design issues [...] we hope that by providing content in batches, we can shift the focus of what is being tested and evaluated."

It's definitely frustrating not know how much time to devote to one thing because you have no idea if it's implemented as intended or if it's even the mechanic we'll see in the final version.

[chortles 263]

The problem with this alpha is, we have no clear way of knowing whether a feature we have issues with is a) bugged, b) placeholder c) final implementation but open to refinement or d) final and set in stone. You might be able to glean some of this info from interviews or posts, but there is no changelog I can see that clearly spells it out. I guess it gives the developers some manouevering room

This is probably the most likely reason to be vague in such reporting -- maximimum wiggle room to avoid being "called out" on any seeming inconsistency.

Although, based on your description of the four possible states of a feature, RiE's explanation of the current grenade throw mechanic is basically somewhere between "placeholder" (admitted) and "final implementation but open to refinment" (my interpretation of what he meant, since he also admitted that it lacks features such as cooking or "meaningful" manipulation of the throw/toss/roll).

It's definitely frustrating not know how much time to devote to one thing because you have no idea if it's implemented as intended or if it's even the mechanic we'll see in the final version.

I can't help but believe that this is at least due to not wanting to "air the extent of any disagreement within the dev team" publicly, which makes sense.

[Fuse 1]

I can't help but believe that this is at least due to not wanting to "air the extent of any disagreement within the dev team" publicly, which makes sense.

For sure. I didn't mean to imply I was mad about it, just that it can be frustrating. There are definitely lots of reasons we don't know everything that goes on, the least of which is that it would require at least one team member devoted solely to that. :)

[johncage 30]

imo arma 2's "fear factor" came from atmospheric mission design. the ai from arma 2 was just as dumb as arma 3. i do not feel threatened by them, possibly why they made accuracy so precise this time around.

[chrisb 196]

Mission design and the right ai mods, that will add the nerve factor.

Not fear I think its the wrong word, too strong, but nervous yes, you need to know your ai are good, really good, that they may not do as expected, that’s when it gets exciting/nervy…

Won’t happen in Arma 3 yet, may never happen..

[jacksoldier 1]

Just wanted to say I agree with the sounds when being shot at. It was a lot more immersive and louder in Arma 2 for some reason. It used to make me almost jump.

---------- Post added at 15:02 ---------- Previous post was at 14:59 ----------

Unfortunately OP is right. Yes you can say it's an alpha and you are right - some may be bugs. But some may be design decisions - dismissing them can be a mistake and if we are vocal enough about this - maybe BIS will bring our ArmA back. And I don't mean crappy HDR or mouse smoothing.

Here are issues I have noticed with the design:

BIS seems to have cut out player suppression. When bullets were landing near the player - aim shake would increase and the screen would brighten a bit. It did produce that "oh shit I need to get out of here" feeling.

ArmA3 certainly started lacking that atmosphere of war with all these annoying magical 5-seconds-to-heal medkits which in case of medic take you from bleeding and unable to move properly to fully healed in 5 seconds. In ArmA2 it was a lengthy process and heavily wounded soldier was unable to fight. In ArmA3 you just wave your hands at him as if casting a spell while he can still move like he doesn't have a bullet in the leg.

The soldier body also doesn't feel like it has inertia anymore when running. You can take off from 0 to full speed almost immediately (try doing that IRL with a loaded backpack). You can spin 180 degrees while being prone in 0.1 seconds.

BIS also cut out the blinding sun, replacing it with a ridiculously small light bulb floating in the sky that you can ignore even when not wearing sunglasses.

You can easily run to the top of an almost vertical hill. In previous games you had to walk... like real humans.

If infantry showcase is an indication of things to come - we can be facing another crappy PMC DLC campaign with annoying linear scripts that never work right - except now on a scale of a whole standalone-game campaign.

This appeasing-the-casual-crowd is now at a dangerous border and if BIS will continue this way - ArmA3 can end up following RO2 footsteps. Tripwire too tried to sit on both chairs, now they complain that CoD-kids are the ones who ruined their game, not the design decision to make it "accessible"/"streamlined"/"zomg we must think about casual players!".

Tripwire thought appealing to both crowds is a good way to make more money but naturally it backfired badly. Just like Derp Rising did for CM. Either you go this way or that way, there can be no middle-ground.

This sums it up well.

I really hope they're not trying to water down the game for the CoD kiddies.

[dnk 13]

Eh, JSRS for ACE2 is pretty much the best crack/whiz sounds for being shot at I've heard, and the ambient noises are top-notch. I DO love the higher contrast between gunshots and all other SFX with A3, though. Guns are LOUD, and now they feel it moreso than in any mod/ArmA game I've tried yet. They just need to work on adding more reverb, which always makes guns sound better ("Heat" did this about perfectly for movies). With all these valleys and rocks around, should be a pretty reverby sort of place, imo.

[jacksoldier 1]

There's a ticket (like this one http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3164) but unfortunately as you can see the other camp downvotes it. That and judging by comments some people suffer from an extreme case of tunnel vision (they think ticket creator hates whole ArmA3 movement because he dislikes one aspect of it).

It's sad that the top issue on there is "adding female soldiers"

[LeeManatee 4]

There's a ticket (like this one http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3164) but unfortunately as you can see the other camp downvotes it. That and judging by comments some people suffer from an extreme case of tunnel vision (they think ticket creator hates whole ArmA3 movement because he dislikes one aspect of it).

this is what you get when you relise public alpha on casual market for people who never played anything besides cs, cod and bf

[Binkowski 26]

There's a ticket (like this one http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3164) but unfortunately as you can see the other camp downvotes it. That and judging by comments some people suffer from an extreme case of tunnel vision (they think ticket creator hates whole ArmA3 movement because he dislikes one aspect of it).

This is unfortunately what is happening in this community. The people who have legitimate arguments and points are just called "fanboys" or "arma hipsters" because they disagree with something in the game.

[jmac6888 1]

It's sad that the top issue on there is "adding female soldiers"

But it makes perfect sense to sort an issue like that out in the Alpha and not the Beta....Adding things like new models and fixing crashing is always going to come before specific tweaks to player characteristics like sprint speed in an Alpha.

[ak1287 1]

But it makes perfect sense to sort an issue like that out in the Alpha and not the Beta....Adding things like new models and fixing crashing is always going to come before specific tweaks to player characteristics like sprint speed in an Alpha.

OH, you mean that stability fixes are always going to come first? WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED.

I mean, it's not like that's the point of the alpha, or that there's not another testing stage that comes after the alpha.

I think it bears repeating that this is not a finished product; that's the entire point of an alpha.

Do I have problems with the movement mechanics? Yes. Do I think it's prudent to say 'ARMA 3? MORE LIKE COD 16 LOLOLOL'? No. Now, if some dev comes on and says 'Movement will never change, working as intended for final product,' THEN I'll be a bit more 'sky is falling.' Until that announcement comes, and until I've seen a beta build, I'll be over here testing stability.

[jmac6888 1]

OH, you mean that stability fixes are always going to come first? WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED.

I mean, it's not like that's the point of the alpha, or that there's not another testing stage that comes after the alpha.

I think it bears repeating that this is not a finished product; that's the entire point of an alpha.

Do I have problems with the movement mechanics? Yes. Do I think it's prudent to say 'ARMA 3? MORE LIKE COD 16 LOLOLOL'? No. Now, if some dev comes on and says 'Movement will never change, working as intended for final product,' THEN I'll be a bit more 'sky is falling.' Until that announcement comes, and until I've seen a beta build, I'll be over here testing stability.

Champ :)

[chortles 263]

It should be added that we know tweaks to movement speeds are already incoming because Vespa already said that, which is what makes the complaining about the unpatched state come off as hollow. (Even if they leave such tweaks in the dev builds, you're just not going to see those in much of the MP scene until later due to servers tending towards stable build.)

I mean, if what you're really complaining about is the unpatched state being indicative of the baseline that they'll be tweaking from... then I wouldn't be sympathetic because you should have seen this coming months ago with the comments that devs were making, unlike the people who are merely calling for tweaks of this baseline but still closer to this baseline than to Arma 2.

[DavidCastle 1]

I feel just as scared in arma 3 as 2... but i play Tvt alot with groups and public. always did pvp/tvt stuff on arma 2 quite a bit as well. WHat needs to be fixed is aimbotting ai's. i LOVE the tactical actions of the new ai, they are better vanilla than arma 2 ai with zues and upsmon ever were, but they aimbot too much. Fix that and we are all good.

[metalcraze 290]

It should be added that we know tweaks to movement speeds are already incoming because Vespa already said that, which is what makes the complaining about the unpatched state come off as hollow. (Even if they leave such tweaks in the dev builds, you're just not going to see those in much of the MP scene until later due to servers tending towards stable build.)

"Slowing sprinting speed" is not enough. There are many more bigger issues with realism discussed in this and the other thread. BIS remains silent.

No way they could miss such thing as having zero inertia running with NLAW that also seems to have zero weight.

Insta self-heal medkits are something that's straight out of Dragon Rising too.

Better to complain now than to realize it's too late in one or two months. Because people in this thread are not the only ones that complain. If we wouldn't complain BIS could consider that "this is war" on the loading screen that will supposedly make you kill your neighbor and his dog the moment you see it is the only problem with the game that people have.

Edited March 22, 2013 by metalcraze

[chortles 263]

Eh, JSRS for ACE2 is pretty much the best crack/whiz sounds for being shot at I've heard, and the ambient noises are top-notch. I DO love the higher contrast between gunshots and all other SFX with A3, though. Guns are LOUD, and now they feel it moreso than in any mod/ArmA game I've tried yet. They just need to work on adding more reverb, which always makes guns sound better ("Heat" did this about perfectly for movies). With all these valleys and rocks around, should be a pretty reverby sort of place, imo.

Interestingly enough, I actually had a "I jumped IRL" moment while playing Insurgency overnight, thanks to an OPFOR potshot that kicked up dust in a seemingly safe (ahaha I know) part of Camp Rogain, but I think I reacted more to the "visual disruption" and the "not safe" surprise than to the sound itself! Just some food for thought there, your experience may vary.

[ak1287 1]

"Slowing sprinting speed" is not enough. There are many more bigger issues with realism discussed in this and the other thread. BIS remains silent.

No way they could miss such thing as having zero inertia running with NLAW that also seems to have zero weight.

Insta self-heal medkits are something that's straight out of Dragon Rising too.

Better to complain now than to realize it's too late in one or two months. Because people in this thread are not the only ones that complain. If we wouldn't complain BIS could consider that "this is war" on the loading screen that will supposedly make you kill your neighbor and his dog the moment you see it is the only problem with the game that people have.

Better yet to say 'Is this particular movement mechanic going to be the exact same in the beta?' instead of going off half-cocked and saying 'Arma is abandoning it's roots.'