Arma 3 Alpha lacking Arma 2's immersion and fear factor.

[Alwarren 2767]

Sadly we already have that here, at least if the healing is final as is.

Which is why people are complaining. The healing system is too unobtrusive, getting shot doesn't have enough punishment.

Yet i guess we all have to agree that there are already some points that have turned more arcade.

The point being, this is an alpha, and if we do not complain about it now, it might stay that way. The reason why people like me are vocal about it is because we do not like the fast healing as it is now, and there is no point in quietly sucking it up as long as you still have the chance to voice your opinion.

[AmmokK 1]

Don´t worry, i get you. Better complain now, while they have the time to change it/implement it "right" instead of when it´s done and then BIS tells us "noone complained, so we thought you like it".

[Binkowski 26]

Unfortunately OP is right. Yes you can say it's an alpha and you are right - some may be bugs. But some may be design decisions - dismissing them can be a mistake and if we are vocal enough about this - maybe BIS will bring our ArmA back. And I don't mean crappy HDR or mouse smoothing.

Here are issues I have noticed with the design:

BIS seems to have cut out player suppression. When bullets were landing near the player - aim shake would increase and the screen would brighten a bit. It did produce that "oh shit I need to get out of here" feeling.

ArmA3 certainly started lacking that atmosphere of war with all these annoying magical 5-seconds-to-heal medkits which in case of medic take you from bleeding and unable to move properly to fully healed in 5 seconds. In ArmA2 it was a lengthy process and heavily wounded soldier was unable to fight. In ArmA3 you just wave your hands at him as if casting a spell while he can still move like he doesn't have a bullet in the leg.

The soldier body also doesn't feel like it has inertia anymore when running. You can take off from 0 to full speed almost immediately (try doing that IRL with a loaded backpack). You can spin 180 degrees while being prone in 0.1 seconds.

BIS also cut out the blinding sun, replacing it with a ridiculously small light bulb floating in the sky that you can ignore even when not wearing sunglasses.

You can easily run to the top of an almost vertical hill. In previous games you had to walk... like real humans.

If infantry showcase is an indication of things to come - we can be facing another crappy PMC DLC campaign with annoying linear scripts that never work right - except now on a scale of a whole standalone-game campaign.

This appeasing-the-casual-crowd is now at a dangerous border and if BIS will continue this way - ArmA3 can end up following RO2 footsteps. Tripwire too tried to sit on both chairs, now they complain that CoD-kids are the ones who ruined their game, not the design decision to make it "accessible"/"streamlined"/"zomg we must think about casual players!".

Tripwire thought appealing to both crowds is a good way to make more money but naturally it backfired badly. Just like Derp Rising did for CM. Either you go this way or that way, there can be no middle-ground.

The points made here are spot on. Little things like the sun being blinding made the difference between life and death when attacking an enemy early in the morning in a valley and the enemy is to your east. I found myself playing A3 for a few days and the moving back to ArmA2. Maybe when the full game is released things will change, but for the time being and for awhile I will be sticking with ArmA2.

[bangtail 0]

Agreed OP. and 1shot drop of everything makes the game feel off... Listen to the guys who have been playing since 2001 until now. Don't let the game become too casual!

No we don't want a game where you have to empty a mag into someone to drop them (I'll play Vanilla BF if I feel like experiencing that) and since you are supposedly a fan since 2001, I wouldn't expect to hear this from you :(

I've seen arguments on the MOH forums (The damage model in Warfighter is one of the worst I have ever experienced) with guys talking about how vests stop everything and this is very far from the truth - especially where rifles are concerned.

Of course, in 2035 or whatever, there could conceivably be better armor but 'empty a mag into someone' gameplay would spell the end of the Arma for me.

Thankfully, the damage modeling seems good to me in the Alpha.

You are allowed to like them, just don't try to make this one the same, because it isn't.

It doesn't have anything to do with being Elite or not. It has something to do with the fact that some players have been playing this game series for ten years, and when we see some 3/13 trying to make this another scooting, grenade-spamming zero-inertia arcade shooter with thumb-sucking-in-a-corner healing, we protest.

QFT^^

Well said :D

Edited March 20, 2013 by BangTail

[Alwarren 2767]

Don´t worry, i get you. Better complain now, while they have the time to change it/implement it "right" instead of when it´s done and then BIS tells us "noone complained, so we thought you like it".

Exactly. This is, as far as I understand it, the purpose of the alpha in the first place

My major concern is that the "It has to be like Battlefield" crows is going to be pretty vocal, and I want to make sure that the voices of OFP/Arma veterans are louder. As I said, I have been playing this series for a long while. I've seen other formerly great games series like Ghost Recon, Splinter Cell, Battlefield, and Rainbow Six go down the "Let's be like CoD" route. All of these games got successively worse after becoming successful to the point where none of them appealed to me anymore. So far, I could always say "well, screw them, there's Arma". I really really like it to stay that way.

---------- Post added at 16:33 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

The points made here are spot on. Little things like the sun being blinding made the difference between life and death when attacking an enemy early in the morning in a valley and the enemy is to your east.

Actually, that is how I convinced a friend to try Arma. He was looking for something more tactical than the average shooter. I told him of a mission I once played and then said that since we had the sun in our front we had to flank to the side so not be at a disadvantage.

He tried playing ARMA a few times and agreed it was the best gaming experience he ever had, but his major gripe was the controls. Now, a lot of the control issues are being taken care of in Arma 3, but I hope that the rest will stay as well, and blinding sun as a tactical factor really needs to stay; in fact, I hope that things like that, and suppression, will have a greater effect on AI as well.

I found myself playing A3 for a few days and the moving back to ArmA2. Maybe when the full game is released things will change, but for the time being and for awhile I will be sticking with ArmA2.

Same here, although I am and will be playing Arma 3, among other reasons so I can spot the things I dislike and moan about them on the forum. When it's all said and done, and the result doesn't appeal to me, at least I will know I tried :)

[ak1287 1]

You meant feedback tracker, right Alwarren?

Because 'moaning' on the forums is so unproductive, it's actually past the point of being funny

[Alwarren 2767]

You meant feedback tracker, right Alwarren?

Because 'moaning' on the forums is so unproductive, it's actually past the point of being funny

I don't believe that a feedback tracker is the place to discuss things. And to be honest, the feedback tracker is hard to use. For each issue there are at least six different entries, classifications are off, no tags given, no decent summary. Plus things like the "female soldiers" issue have derailed in a major way.

[metalcraze 290]

At the moment the harsh truth is that feedback tracker is a little more than a trashcan. There are so many dupes and "zomg I broke my nail"-stuff posted by people who never played ArmA before that unless you have a supporting thread on forums with links to specific issues and discussing them - your ticket will not be found.

[deepfried 1]

I think Arma 3 in an improvement on Arma 2 in every way, now ACE 2 on the other hand is perhaps a different story. I wonder how many people in this thread talking about "arma2" are actually referring to ACE.

[KeyCat 131]

To answer OP concern one of the major things for me that affects immersion in current Alpha is the poor soundscape. With that I mean the lack of environment sounds, no movement sounds, no bullet swiz's, crack's etc. Here A2:OA beats current A3 Alpha hands down. It could be as simple as a low volume issue (or my specific sound HW/drivers?) and I'm sure things will improve and all they have to do is to duplicate what they already did in A2:OA + bring back ringing in the ears :).

When it comes to movement speed and healing etc. I agree that things needs to be dailed down, especially sprinting since now it feels like you are running on meth! For me it would be OK'ish to be able to move fast - but still with some stamina limit - with no gear/handgun but being able to do so with full military equipment on your back should not be doable.

Just my 0.20 SEK

/KC

Edited March 20, 2013 by KeyCat

[aoshi 1]

the movements, and the sounds is what make fell scary, that loud cracks of near shots, and plenty of sounds for near shots and near fires, that is scare(on arma 2)

[chortles 263]

Prior to BF3, BF was the lowest complexity or arcadish shooter I could stomach

This probably explains why EA went with BF3 instead of BF: BC3 for the name... though, again, I see EA's obvious "Captain Ahab syndrome" way more problematic than any of the actual gameplay changes in BF3.

To be clear, I'm not excusing the gameplay changes, I'm saying that the fundamental problem worse than any of said gameplay changes is how obviously EA was trying to position BF3 for market share against COD and Activision in particular while using much the same money-making schemes (i.e. $60 game, $10 online pass for used, $15/each DLC, $50 season pass) and how that impulse/desire influences all aspects of BF3 both as a game and as a sales tool... and hell, even Activision/COD have been able to maintain a less "money-hungry" reputation, probably at least in part because: #1, they don't go with the $10 online pass, and #2, until Black Ops 2: Revolution they had never had a weapon be DLC, albeit in the same manner as BF3's DLC weapons (pay to be able to spawn in with and customize the weapon, while non-DLC players can pick up and wield a DLC player's dropped weapon). And thankfully, BI did not go down either road. ;)

I made a stink that some immersion will be lost when they switched to optional/unlimited saves but also got an overwhelming response of "let us play it the way we like to!"

I believe that this here is where the fundamental issue lies...

I think Arma 3 in an improvement on Arma 2 in every way, now ACE 2 on the other hand is perhaps a different story. I wonder how many people in this thread talking about "arma2" are actually referring to ACE.

You mean that they can tell the difference? :p

The feedback tracker, if not outright scrapped, should at least remove feature requests -- that seems to be where people come up with more junk and cause-of-derails as opposed to "this item doesn't work on account of blah blah blah" reports.

Ya know, metalcraze, re: your OFP mission design comments... if you feel that BI has fundamental issues with mission design that are so bad that "personally after their OA and PMC I have little faith in the current team working on ArmA3 campaign", I'm not sure that there's really point in holding out any hope for this series. :p

Again, I'll reiterate for this page if I didn't already mention it before: The fact that I am knowingly playing a video game with a mouse and a keyboard is always enough to break immersion for me... therefore I don't feel that Arma 3 at alpha lacks Arma 2's immersion and fear factor because I felt none from Arma 2 anyway.

[KeyCat 131]

Again, I'll reiterate for this page if I didn't already mention it before: The fact that I am knowingly playing a video game with a mouse and a keyboard is always enough to break immersion for me... therefore I don't feel that Arma 3 at alpha lacks Arma 2's immersion and fear factor because I felt none from Arma 2 anyway.

Then I can tell you that you haven't experienced a well made ArmA co-op mission with no respawn available - you should try it!

/KC

[ak1287 1]

At the moment the harsh truth is that feedback tracker is a little more than a trashcan. There are so many dupes and "zomg I broke my nail"-stuff posted by people who never played ArmA before that unless you have a supporting thread on forums with links to specific issues and discussing them - your ticket will not be found.

Actually, that sounds frighteningly similar to the forums.....

[chortles 263]

If you consider the feedback tracker to but a proxy for the same Internet arguments from the forums but existing into the feedback tracker because both sides believe that somehow BI will listen to them more if it's in the feedback tracker instead of the forums... that makes a lot of sense.

Then I can tell you that you haven't experienced a well made ArmA co-op mission with no respawn available - you should try it!

Oh here we go with the "no true Scotsman" argument... dude, I mean that literally nothing about Arma 2 or Arma 3 gives me a sense of immersion because I know that I'm playing a video game no matter what the mission is.

[metalcraze 290]

Actually, that sounds frighteningly similar to the forums.....

Forums are made for discussion. But tracker is more important for improving the game and fixing bugs. People just post really silly stuff there. At times it feels like it's reaching a personal blog level.

Maybe this will help to solve a lot of issues

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=5554

Edited March 20, 2013 by metalcraze

[Varanon 892]

I wonder how many people in this thread talking about "arma2" are actually referring to ACE.

I'm sure most of the people here are well aware of the differences between Arma 2 vanilla and ACE. I wonder if you actually do know the difference

[chortles 263]

It seems pretty clearly to have been a joke, Varanon...

[ak1287 1]

Forums are made for discussion. But tracker is more important to improving the game and fixing bugs.

Maybe this will help to solve a lot of issues

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=5554

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you; I don't think either mode right now is an effective platform for discussing any constructive criticism, because the forums generally will devolve into 'game is becoming CoD,' or 'game isn't enough like Arma 2,' or 'game is perfect and you're an idiot.' As rational people, most of us can see that none of those are true, and none of them are constructive.

So it's concerning that the feedback tracker, which I think is a good concept, basically devolved into 'forum lite.' I feel sorry for the poor SOB that has to read all those posts.

Edit: here's a particular gem.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=1727

Edited March 20, 2013 by ak1287
added DLC. Just like EA.

[PN11A 2]

You know what breaks immersion for me? When I notice an enemy and try to turn and engage but my character turns to slow. When i am low crawling up to a position and hit a weird angle on the rocks and my character stands straight up, The characters run kinda slow in my opinion but I figured it is what it is. Trying to do to many calculations and come up with formulas to display human movement will lead to a stale unresponsive game. This game will never be able to be completely true to life because its all based on numbers, how you move and feel when your sitting in your chair judging this game vs how you move and feel when your actually in combat are completely different. Yes its easy to say "no way can you run that fast with gear on" when truth is if someone or your life depends on it your normal physical limitations are not the same. This also has alot to do with who and what your playing, if your playing pvp respawn battle royal its not going to feel the same as if your playing coop with no respawn with your buddies. Have you ever played the game with no shift click ? where your navigator holds the compass and you count up kicks to keep pace? pretty intense surface in the wrong area your dead.

[KeyCat 131]

Oh here we go with the "no true Scotsman" argument... dude, I mean that literally nothing about Arma 2 or Arma 3 gives me a sense of immersion because I know that I'm playing a video game no matter what the mission is.

No offence but it sounds like you are a person that may have problems finding yourself immersed in a good book or movie? There is nothing wrong with that, we are all different so I hope this won't comes across in a wrong way, I'm just curious...

/KC

[ak1287 1]

You know what breaks immersion for me? When I notice an enemy and try to turn and engage but my character turns to slow. When i am low crawling up to a position and hit a weird angle on the rocks and my character stands straight up, The characters run kinda slow in my opinion but I figured it is what it is. Trying to do to many calculations and come up with formulas to display human movement will lead to a stale unresponsive game. This game will never be able to be completely true to life because its all based on numbers, how you move and feel when your sitting in your chair judging this game vs how you move and feel when your actually in combat are completely different. Yes its easy to say "no way can you run that fast with gear on" when truth is if someone or your life depends on it your normal physical limitations are not the same. This also has alot to do with who and what your playing, if your playing pvp respawn battle royal its not going to feel the same as if your playing coop with no respawn with your buddies. Have you ever played the game with no shift click ? where your navigator holds the compass and you count up kicks to keep pace? pretty intense surface in the wrong area your dead.

Small anecdote, sort of off topic. I had a friend who watched me play Arma 2 a while back, and when he watched me doing a house clearing, he asked if I ever had flashbacks while playing the game.

Then he watched me move, and immediately burst out laughing.

[froggyluv 2136]

Then I can tell you that you haven't experienced a well made ArmA co-op mission with no respawn available - you should try it!

/KC

Nothing against master mission makers, but I really doubt a mission could fill me with dread or fear the way I felt when realising I was totally fecked during After Montignac, the way I jumped when the dogs bursts through the window when first playing Resident Evil, or the way my buddy broke my Playstation when first trying Doom because one of those pink demons surprised him and he turned left -hard! :p

We've all seen under the hood now and have all mostly made missions so that frankly, takes some of the magic away. The movies The Ring or The Matrix were hugely scary/titilating the first time but now, no numbered sequel will be effective now that we've peeked under the hood. I would guess the next time something interactive will truly scare us will be maybe the evolution of virtual headsets in which new levels of immersion are brought. Thats not to say that Arma missions can't be good or involving, just that I wouldn't expect BI to capture lightning in a bottle quite the same way again. Not even Stephan King can do it -why should they?

[KeyCat 131]

You know what breaks immersion for me? When I notice an enemy and try to turn and engage but my character turns to slow. When i am low crawling up to a position and hit a weird angle on the rocks and my character stands straight up,

Yes, one of my "pet peeves" to... you may have seen this ticket already but vote it up if you don't...

0002034: Infantry auto stand-up while crawling near low walls/stone hedge

/KC

[metalcraze 290]

We've all seen under the hood now and have all mostly made missions so that frankly, takes some of the magic away. The movies The Ring or The Matrix were hugely scary/titilating the first time but now, no numbered sequel will be effective now that we've peeked under the hood. I would guess the next time something interactive will truly scare us will be maybe the evolution of virtual headsets in which new levels of immersion are brought. Thats not to say that Arma missions can't be good or involving, just that I wouldn't expect BI to capture lightning in a bottle quite the same way again. Not even Stephan King can do it -why should they?

It's not that hard. When I played CWR2 demo for ArmA2 it felt exactly like playing OFP again, except with better controls, better graphics and better AI.

After Montignac was still good old After Montignac. In fact it was even more daunting because you now had a lot more vegetation, grass in particular. When I was coming to some open field in between forests I felt that good old tension. I remember running through a field with APC driving nearby - it did felt like it can be over at any moment. Played on Veteran with 1 savegame of course.

Even Steal the car still played like Steal the car.

Granted the game did lose its suspense-grip over me because I got used to many things but some missions still manage to push just the right buttons.

Edited March 20, 2013 by metalcraze