Arma 3 Alpha lacking Arma 2's immersion and fear factor.

[ak1287 1]

I don't usually take sentences that contain the word "gorilla" and "retirement community" very serious, it is just that ridiculing other people's opinion doesn't make your point.

Sprinting around 90 degrees corners without losing your balance, changing direction by 180 degrees, no visible acceleration/deceleration phase is not my idea of realistic. As I said before, everything up to the tactical pace is fine, after that it just turns into a mess. There is nothing realistic about the sprinting.

I wasn't ridiculing anyone's point; I was injecting my humor into my own.

And I was pretty sure that I already stated my displeasure with the movement for sprinting, but here it goes: I have problems with the sprinting mechanic, and I believe that it's based on the lack of a mechanic, not a feature of the existing mechanic.

[jumpinghubert 49]

arma2 was a cold war scenario in an european setting. Arma3 takes place on a holiday isle. What a finding!

[Fuse 1]

Part of it is the location. Make some night missions, and if you're really up for a challenge don't take any NVGs. It totally changes the feel of the island. That's definitely not the only issue, though.

I feel like one of the biggest factors is the movement. Players don't feel like they have any mass, allowing me to move like I would in any other shooter. Side strafing, Olympic-level take off on sprint, things like that. Since shooting in Arma is harder than a traditional FPS I know that if the first bullet doesn't kill me I am practically guaranteed able to make it to cover because I can dart off like some sort of rodent. Terrain also doesn't seem to be a factor in movement, so you barely have to think about what you're doing.

Hear rounds incoming? Mash sprint and scan for the nearest cover, you don't even really need to know where it is in advance. Treat your wounds if you've got them (only takes a second), engage target. The initial confrontation just no longer feels dangerous after the first shot is fired.

I think Arma 3's movement is a big improvement over Arma 2. The controls were one of the main reasons I never sunk much time in Arma 2. I think Arma 3 has gone a little too far in the other direction right now, but I don't see why we can't find a good balance.

[-Coulum- 35]

can't remember one person saying that...

On the internet everyone thinks they know what everyone is thinking... See I'm doing it now:)

Anyhow, as far as immersion I think that the futuristic setting(weapons, factions vehicles etc.), sound, effects, and midrange textures decrease the immersion compared to a modded arma 2. Movement also may have an effect but I am not sure whether it is the movement itself or the animations (ie the way the weapon is held while running looks alot like certain other gmaes which i immediately link to Arcadey). The current ai skills also take away from immersion.

As far as fear goes however, I have never really found arma to be that fear invoking. I mean how scared can you get looking at a computer screen.

I know. Here I've tried to create a better one.

I hope it describes the issue better and more in-depth and won't just be another dupe

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=5509

hmm interesting. I am not sure if this is a cause for lack of immersion for me, but I do think something like this is necessary. Because right not the best way of room clearing is to:

-Sprint full speed into a room (it is near impossible for the defender to shoot a target at this speed and distance)

-Turn to face the defender while strafing in tactical pace and spraying away from the hip (The sudden (ie immediate) change in speed and direction throws off the defenders aim)

-If you haven't already hit, bring up the sights while changing to walk and continuing to strafe, finishing the enemy off with accurate fire.(the change in pace again throws the defenders aim off while also allowing you te have precise aim)

I don't like this at all and I hope something like what you suggest in the ticket could help fix this problem.

[ak1287 1]

As far as fear goes however, I have never really found arma to be that fear invoking. I mean how scared can you get looking at a computer screen.

Amnesia: The Dark Descent. To a lesser extent, Slender, although after I figured out that the entire point of that game was to lose, I stopped getting scared, and started getting angry.

On topic, I don't think I can place enough emphasis on how much I like metalcraze's ticket. It addresses the flaw succinctly and without resorting to 'ZOMG COD CLONE GET OUT OF MY GAME'. Which is why most of the complaints against the movement as is aren't very valid in my mind.

[chortles 263]

This thread could use a dose of "Vespa has already said that in particular to other movement tweaks and specifically said that sprinting speed will be nerfed".

I'll definitely say though that "night combat" without NVGs definitely adds something to my sense of "combat!" and "risky!" that isn't present during the daytime, but I don't believe that the setting change (either in time period or in region/ambience) makes a difference to me, and when I presented a video of one of the ShackTac Arma 3 TDM videos to someone new to Arma 3 (albeit in the presence of a vocal ShackTac fan) he was impressed by the graphics fidelity of the daytime infantry combat but particularly struck by the video portion of night combat, I suppose in a way that the "Tehran Highway" map in BF3 doesn't, and of course took positive note of the gameplay potential from "wide-open outdoors" combat with infantry with small arms... so good job there, BI! :D

I'll agree re: ak1287 on metalcraze's recent ticket, focusing succinctly on things without veering into the seemingly-normal impulse of "ZOMG COD CLONE GET OUT OF MY GAME" that just leads to inevitable thread/comment drama and (especially after the Steamworks announcement thread drama) possibly dev "lalala I can't hear you" :lol:

@ metalcraze: As I said in that thread about RO2/Tripwire Interactive -- I think our otherwise-mutual distaste for the Battlefield series starting with 3 is for very different reasons. ;) I'll say this: "milsim" and "sandbox w/ editor" aren't mutually exclusive, but neither is "arcadey as hell" and "sandbox w/ editor"... problem is, EA clearly perceives the latter as a threat to their ability to churn out DLC and otherwise ape Activision. What, you don't believe that I resented that about EA too? And you don't believe how much schadenfreude I have about the SimCity debacle indicating the mentality going on? We both like BI, but I'm starting to wonder if we like BI for different and possibly mutually exclusive reasons. :p

P.S. One issue that I'll lay more at DICE's feet than at EA's is that their formal "class-based loadouts" (unlike Arma 3's "freeform loadouts regulated by uniform, load-bearing vest and backpack") also have specific items that determine the class' overall utility or the item's utility relative to other possible choices... DICE has seemed to somehow have been consistently bad at regulating/tweaking these these for a year and a half by now, which is another reason I like the "sandbox" aspect of Arma where I don't have to worry about BI being bad at that tweaking or not. ;)

Edited March 20, 2013 by Chortles

[MissileMoose 10]

I believe that it's mainly down to the mission maker to affect emotions by designing in an intelligent way. Suppression mechanics do have a great impact, but other than that it's difficult to simulate emotion in a generic sandbox environment. In general, combat should be a little more stressful now due to the fact that all buildings can be occupied, which increases the chances of window shooters. :)

Edit: While on the subject of emotions, the sprinting duration is horribly short even when carrying little gear. When in combat, adrenaline levels are high meaning the player shouldn't feel the level of fatigue that he seems to do, as the game stands currently. I can deal with driver and game crashes all day long, but this bugs me.

Edited March 20, 2013 by MissileMoose

[Mac 1]

Why are the two mutually exclusive all of a sudden when that's what the game was all this time?

ArmA won't be able to become CoD with tanks (aka BF3) on a bigger map and stay interesting to any of camps here.

People who want ArmA3 to be like CoD and BF3 hate complex gameplay because it stops them from just frag grinding in a random TDM.

People who want ArmA3 to be like ArmA won't go for a game that is just BF3 on a big map because the moment it takes less than a blink to do a noscope headshot from 100m - this camp is out.

And if you stay in the middle both camps will just complain non-stop.

I personally always liked the series because the game felt closer to real war missions where you need to think before you act. Even if it's just a simple take-the-village mission.

Not only fighting enemies, but fighting the environment when every slope and sun direction matter and limitations of your own soldier is the complexity no other game offers.

^This, Please BI listen to the guys who have been here since the beginning. Arma needs to stay Arma

[chortles 263]

I believe that it's mainly down to the mission maker to affect emotions by designing in an intelligent way.

Oooh... and right here we've hit upon the most difficult part of "immersion". :D Hmm, when was the last time that someone pulled this off enough to take the gaming world by storm... ;)

In general, combat should be a little more stressful now due to the fact that all buildings can be occupied, which increases the chances of window shooters. :)

I'll agree here -- the new likelihood of a shooter inside does affect how I travel based on the perception of seeing any windows in built-up areas (putting the BUA in FIBUA!).

^This, Please BI listen to the guys who have been here since the beginning. Arma needs to stay Arma

I believe though that BI does believe in this... but I believe that they (or rather whoever is pulling the strings lately) define it as more specifically, "what is the aspect that 'makes Arma, well, Arma' and is thus immutable, unlike everything else that we can tweak to our preferences?"... after all, they certainly didn't think that "Cold War" or "2010s" was the answer, and the different setting gave them more creative leeway and thus was probably more interesting to them and thus had that much more effort put into it! :lol: I think that Jay Crowe/RiE and Ivan Buchta both talked about their idea of the answer in media interviews pre-what-happened-that-we-shan't-bring-up. (Not sure how much of a role Mr. Land/DnA actually has to do with this once he came project lead, so I won't speculate here.)

By the way, here's the RiE quote re: grenades:

"We're on the right track, I hope. I remember speaking to you last year at E3 about what 'accessibility' means and arguing that, for ARMA, it shouldn't be about 'dumbing down.' Rather, it's grinding down the rough edges: things that aren't authentic or fun to master; features or behaviours that are just somehow awkward."

"One good example is the way we handle throwing grenades in the ARMA III alpha," Crowe continues. "The feature isn't complete, and in its current state, I think it's a bit too simplistic. You press a key, the grenade is tossed, whatever animation state you're in. I think that's a legitimate example of where we haven't quite yet hit the right balance. Of course, it's a big improvement over ARMA II's turgid system. I basically didn't use grenades before, and now I do, so that's progress! It's more instinctive and usable, which is why we've left this WIP feature in the public build. However, for me, it's probably now too easy. There's not enough depth of control: you can't cook the grenade or manipulate the flight in any truly meaningful way."

Edited March 20, 2013 by Chortles

[MissileMoose 10]

Oooh... and right here we've hit upon the most difficult part of "immersion". :D Hmm, when was the last time that someone pulled this off enough to take the gaming world by storm... ;)

I voiced my opinion in an unclear way. I feel that while the game developers can improve on emotions related to combat (suppression, fear of dying) and fatigue, more complex (happiness, sadness, confusion, anger) emotions mainly come from good missions. :)

[chortles 263]

I voiced my opinion in an unclear way. I feel that while the game developers can improve on emotions related to combat (suppression, fear of dying) and fatigue, more complex (happiness, sadness, confusion, anger) emotions mainly come from good missions. :)

I reiterate: that's the most difficult part of all, and I remember a certain such "mission" that caused such more complex feelings to manifest, hmm... ;)

[Ghost-321 10]

Agreed OP. The super sprint speed and 1shot drop of everything makes the game feel off... I'm sure they will fix it eventually but please BI, don't take the middle of the road approach. Listen to the guys who have been playing since 2001 until now. Don't let the game become too casual!

[AmmokK 1]

Why are the two mutually exclusive all of a sudden when that's what the game was all this time?

ArmA won't be able to become CoD with tanks (aka BF3) on a bigger map and stay interesting to any of camps here.

People who want ArmA3 to be like CoD and BF3 hate complex gameplay because it stops them from just frag grinding in a random TDM.

People who want ArmA3 to be like ArmA won't go for a game that is just BF3 on a big map because the moment it takes less than a blink to do a noscope headshot from 100m - this camp is out.

And if you stay in the middle both camps will just complain non-stop.

I personally always liked the series because the game felt closer to real war missions where you need to think before you act. Even if it's just a simple take-the-village mission.

Not only fighting enemies, but fighting the environment when every slope and sun direction matter and limitations of your own soldier is the complexity no other game offers.

As someone who likes both games, such comments make me sad and do actually only show even fanboys of ArmA are just fanboys, talking about the "enemy product" without knowing it and just talking random bullshit!

- CoD with tanks (aka BF3).

CoD and BF are 2 totally different kind of games. Sure, both are arcade, yet BF isn´t going that way so hard as CoD is. In CoD you are like 5 seconds away from the action on whatever map you play on. Mostly due to the retarted random spawn, killing any decent tactics. BF is way slower and since you have bases, it´s much more tactical yet far away from ArmA of course.

- hate complex gameplay because it stops them from just frag grinding in a random TDM

Interesting theory and again showing how you have no idea of the games you critisize. Let´s take BF3 and rip your statement apart. "Frag grinding" in TDM in BF3. Hm, that won´t work. Know why? Because there are no fixed spawnpoints in TDM ( Dice´s sad approach to lure CoD players [and btw the less played gamemode!]). So, you can try to frag grind, sure. Won´t help much though...

- BF3 [...] do a noscope headshot from 100m

Omg, please, show me those skills. If not just some lucky hit (at least if you play it for real, meaning hardcore mode), it´s quite impossible to do this "on command". Sure, in normal mode this might be pretty doable but not in any decent rounds. Btw, you can also do this in ArmA if you have crosshair and some skill. Maybe not as easy as in BF normal mode but still possible.

So please, next time you bitch about other games that are oh so bad in your eyes: at least know what you are talking about, because this random hate is just lame. Whatever side is using it!

[chortles 263]

You're going to have to do a more specific job of defining what "casual" means, much less defining the "road" and where "the middle" is, Ghost-321... metalcraze has shown how to respond calmly in his ticket, you should try and emulate that instead. ;)

And to reiterate for this page: "milsim" and "sandbox w/ editor" aren't mutually exclusive, but "arcadey as hell" and "sandbox w/ editor" aren't mutually exclusive either... but EA/Activision see "sandbox w/ editor" as a threat to their DLC sales*, BI does not. Ergo A3 > BF3 and COD. :p

AmmoldK, I wouldn't bother responding to metalcraze... the animations lead dev has already said that sprinting is getting a nerf, so that complaint is getting addressed, so further complaining in this thread just makes it sound like yet another "animations and infantry movement/weapon handling aren't enough like Arma 2's" thread despite all the valid complaints in this thread... the last one had the OP quit halfway through publicly regretting buying a Supporter Edition and saying BI should "get better actors next time" for mo-cap instead of Smookie. :rolleyes:

* I wouldn't be surprised if the devs for COD and BF3 wouldn't allow sandbox w/ editor for the risk of someone coming up with a more popular game mode than anything the devs would have thought of... sandbox w/ editor is a threat to IW/Treyarch/DICE devs' egos. ;)

Edited March 20, 2013 by Chortles

[Varanon 892]

As someone who likes both games, such comments make me sad and do actually only show even fanboys of ArmA are just fanboys, talking about the "enemy product" without knowing it and just talking random bullshit!

Could we please avoid the name calling ?

Sorry, AmmokK, you are hooked on details here and nothing you say invalidates metalkraze's points.

[metalcraze 290]

Speaking of mission design - it was suffering in BIS game for years.

When I played OFP CWC for the first time many years ago it pretty much changed my impression of shooters. Everybody could die with ease around you and were dying. You could die extremely easily too. And you had a single savegame apart from very scarce autosave points no matter the difficulty. This pretty much forced BIS into balancing their missions well and so while it wasn't unbearably hard it put you under constant pressure which was just about right, especially once you understood how to play it in a correct way. Missions were scary because it was easy to fail and the punishment was on the same level as in flight sims. Being alone in the forest and hunted by enemies without any scripts that supposedly should induce fear like in modern games - was scary.

After OFP things broke. Games now started having unlimited savegames and even 8 save slots like in ArmA2 instead of one - and BIS clearly started balancing the game with a regular difficulty in mind. Which meant that on veteran it often turned into a boring grind (let's throw more enemies at a player because he can save on regular at any time yay!) with many reloads - which Red Harvest took into overdrive. While on Regular you could just save-spam without any consequences. BAF was like the only return to form but even then it was clearly balanced with 'regular' in mind. See how they were throwing APCs at you in mission 3 when you barely had any people to deal with that.

That and after Queen's Gambit BIS seems to be forever stuck in the "speshul forcez" land. Judging by how they say "we must make new campaign beginner-friendly" - things will not improve. And personally after their OA and PMC I have little faith in the current team working on ArmA3 campaign.

If I could handle OFP after playing games like UT and Quake, why BIS never had faith in people who were coming from much slower and campy BF?

OFP sold extremely well and let BIS expand and become a military contractor - and it didn't need handholding.

The problem is that this change in SP I think was mirrored in MP. There are not many communities that will play well balanced norespawn missions be it coop or pvp. Respawn takes away the fear factor entirely because you can make mistakes all you want, the only punishment will be a few minutes of waiting. Or seconds in the worst case. Died? Respawn, go finish those remaining enemies.

You can only feel fear when you can lose easily. You can't feel anything when the game is trivial. In modern games with their annoying amateur dramatics - I feel absolutely nothing. Compared to OFP's "escape the captivity on Kolgujev" mission the ridiculously trying-too-hard starting sequence of FC3 left me absolutely not caring. Because if I fail I know I will just start from a checkpoint 20 meters away.

As someone who likes both games, such comments make me sad and do actually only show even fanboys of ArmA are just fanboys, talking about the "enemy product" without knowing it and just talking random bullshit!

Except I was talking about people demanding ArmA to be like BF3. Read carefully.

- CoD with tanks (aka BF3).

CoD and BF are 2 totally different kind of games.

They were. Now they are the same. Remove tanks from BF3 and what will remain? It's same silly gameplay where even if you constantly fail you constantly have those gratification points flying at you with unlocks. Much like CoD BF3 keeps rewarding you for literally doing nothing. So yes BF3 is Call of Duty with tanks. Do you think I've never played BF games?

Edited March 20, 2013 by metalcraze

[Variable 322]

CoD and BF are 2 totally different kind of games.

If you can distinguish between COD and BF then I don't know what the hell are you looking for here.

[AmmokK 1]

If you can distinguish between COD and BF then I don't know what the hell are you looking for here.

Oh sorry, because i can distinguish between CoD and BF, i am not elite enough for this community or what do you intend to say by that? Oo

Geez, some people here act like DotA players behave, when they smell a LoL player. Didn´t read in ArmA´s rules that it isn´t allowed to like other shooters as well.

[Variable 322]

Didn´t read in ArmA´s rules that it isn´t allowed to like other shooters as well.

Sure, it's allowed. but your approach, and the other COD fans approach on these forums have effect. Arma 3 is already been affected by demands of people who want it to be like COD and more like BF. The result is that a military simulator has features of stupid (sorry, I know you love these games) FPS games which dumb down the game and make it less than what it could be.

If you love COD and BF so much, why not go and play it instead of promoting their features on a game that has a whole different heritage?

[Alwarren 2767]

Geez, some people here act like DotA players behave, when they smell a LoL player. Didn´t read in ArmA´s rules that it isn´t allowed to like other shooters as well.

You are allowed to like them, just don't try to make this one the same, because it isn't.

It doesn't have anything to do with being Elite or not. It has something to do with the fact that some players have been playing this game series for ten years, and when we see some 3/13 trying to make this another scooting, grenade-spamming zero-inertia arcade shooter with thumb-sucking-in-a-corner healing, we protest.

[Weathers 1]

Was a big fan of the BF series up until BF3. They took too big a step in the direction of COD and lost a lot of what made BF BF. I remember playing BF2 all those years ago and dreaming of BF3 but when it finally did arrive it was a watered down game albeit a watered down game with some amazing visuals.

Prior to BF3, BF was the lowest complexity or arcadish shooter I could stomach so now I have emigrated to Arma, via BF2 Project Reality. Arma 2's controls were overly clunky and restrictive imo so I stayed with BF2PR for the most part, but now ArmA3 has most of that sorted I can't wait, because I loved the depth of ArmA2 - I jjust echo the thoughtts of others here in the hope that BIS don't fall foul of the recent casualization craze of former Greats.

[katipo66 94]

I initially had similar feelings as the OP but since playing the crap out of the alpha I have to disagree, it's all mostly still there but just better Imo, just the extra stances alone make it a lot more immersive... Can't wait for people to start making/porting maps, especially ones like fata and aliabad, great step in the right direction by BIS, i can't imagine you will not be able to do the same things you do in arma now? So then it seems some peoples only real issue is it has attracted a whole bunch of new players who don't play the game they way they think arma should be played, thankfully Arma is bigger than that :)

[Yairweinberg 1]

I noticed it too. When I died I was like meh... Didn't get frustrated or anything just Meh... I was not afraid to go all Rambo on people and just go to someones face and just unload a mag or two on him.

[froggyluv 2136]

The points of there used to be only 1 save as well as game calibration are huge factors imo.

After Montignac. Pretty sure that mission is seared (or PTSD'ed) into all OFP veteran players. It was the first time I ever felt abandoned in a game or RL, and it kept you waiting or wishing for help while none was coming and quite the opposite was happening -enemies were seemingly putting a stranglehold on your position. The 1 save meant that any progress you made in the mission was sacred and needed to be preserved, hence, massive tension.

I made a stink that some immersion will be lost when they switched to optional/unlimited saves but also got an overwhelming response of "let us play it the way we like to!"

Calibration, especiallly AI, is also a large factor. Imagine if the game of chess was malleable to the point of you could change the Knight's move to a 'Y' as well as an 'L' or the Rook could hop friendly squares etc... Wouldn't feel so impressive to beat Chessmaster 10000 on Elite.... Of course this is Alpha so Im not criticising AI calibration (yet), but it is important (as is mission design) nevertheless.

[AmmokK 1]

Sure, it's allowed. but your approach, and the other COD fans approach on these forums have effect. Arma 3 is already been affected by demands of people who want it to be like COD and more like BF. The result is that a military simulator has features of stupid (sorry, I know you love these games) FPS games which dumb down the game and make it less than what it could be.

If you love COD and BF so much, why not go and play it instead of promoting their features on a game that has a whole different heritage?

While i am sure there are CoD & BF players around here that would like ArmA to turn into another direction, like "BF in even bigger", i have never (and will never!) said such a thing. It´s 2 pair of shoes, obviously and it would be a shame if BIS would give those people what they wanted.

shooter with thumb-sucking-in-a-corner healing

Sadly we already have that here, at least if the healing is final as is.

Again, please: -> I <- would never want to make ArmA a bigger BF or change the CQC into CoD style. That would be a waste of potential and turn ArmA into something it isn´t (and shouldn´t!). Yet i guess we all have to agree that there are already some points that have turned more arcade. Like mentioned fast healing, the really easy flying (tbh, i find it harder in BF3 than here) and other small changes you can read about here and there. Now this might just be coincidence, as ArmA is getting more "fluid" or it is BIS´s way of trying to appeal to those other players out there, trying to get a bigger userbase.

While it is too soon to tell, the danger of angering long-term ArmA players is existing and BIS really should think twice, if they are indeed heading that direction.

Now, to get back to the original thought of this thread: immersion. Well, i do certainly hope for getting things like being suppressed (also) into ArmA III and hope it´s just not yet there. For now, it´s like all those soldiers are just on Cocaine and act like they don´t care for bullets all around them. Although i have no idea how you act like a real war vet, i do think you would at least react to it in some way, no matter how trained you are. But feel free to tell me how it really is.

Anyway: peace!

...

Narf: war!