Love the new AI firefights

[NacroxNicke 11]

The question is, you want to the AI react and fire as a player would do in the game? or you want the AI to react and fire as a real life soldier would do?

The first deals with high precision AI, but the player tends to become dead too fast (since he doesn't rely on friendly teammates, yet). And the second makes better for immersion (but a high skilled player would steamroll an enemy squad without problems).

[-Coulum- 35]

What I love is that I don't feel cheap putting the ai precision down. Because it is now pretty hard for me to shoot as well, do to the weapon sway.

I like that the ai use some buildings, but I really hope that BIS make more cover positions in more buildings so that it happens more consistently.

Edit:

The question is, you want to the AI react and fire as a player would do in the game? or you want the AI to react and fire as a real life soldier would do?

The first deals with high precision AI, but the player tends to become dead too fast (since he doesn't rely on friendly teammates, yet). And the second makes better for immersion (but a high skilled player would steamroll an enemy squad without problems).

This was a real problem in arma 2, but in arma 3 it is not as serious, due to the weaponsway I think.

[dayglow 2]

Just remember, folks, this isn't BF3 or COD - no "pea shooters" or "Pellet Guns" in this game. :) One shot - one kill (or severely injured). (Side note: Yes, a head shot in BF3 will kill someone, but yet they can take 5 bullets to the body and still Rambo Around the Map).

If you have ever played the Singleplayer on BF3 or COD, it is an arcade. I could get shot 4 times....hide behind a wall...wait.... regenerate...then live on to fight again in a matter of seconds. I have a feeling those that come over from BF3 or COD are going to be frustrated in two ways: 1) The "Realism" is a beeotch. 2) Huge learning curve. In order to play ArmA, you have to get that "Arcade Mentality" out of your head.

What makes ArmA 3 so awesome is the "Game Play"...... once you get past the learning curve, the game is a real jewel.

That depends, are we going to model modern to future body armor? Battlefield survivabilty is pretty high with modern equipment.

In all seriousness it will be interesting how they model this if they really want to be 'realistic'. I could see causing screen fade and aim jumpyness for a period after armor absorbs a round to mimic the physical and phycological stress of being hit.

[bad benson 1733]

The question is, you want to the AI react and fire as a player would do in the game? or you want the AI to react and fire as a real life soldier would do?

The first deals with high precision AI, but the player tends to become dead too fast (since he doesn't rely on friendly teammates, yet). And the second makes better for immersion (but a high skilled player would steamroll an enemy squad without problems).

the problem is that you can't compare what is defined as a good aim when a human has it and the precision settings in arma. the problem is that with high settings they will kill you with one shot to the head one second after spotting you over insane distances with any weapon even if you are just slightly exposed hiding behind an object. if the precision settings would just define a general ability to aim it would be different. it already was a problem fixed by several mods in arma 2.

reducing the precision basically influences mainly long range firefights and makes enemy fire more feel like suppression fire. close up you will still get killed very easily. for me it's a matter of just fixing something that's broken. 0.1 might be very low but it's the first setting that feels realistic to me. at the moment i'm increasing it and testing to find the sweet spot. but try it yourself. believe me. you will die if you don't use cover.

the goal is to find the setting where it resembles human aim the most. there are certain distances that will just need luck in addition to recoil control to hit all your shots into a moving target not to mention getting a headshot. arma is very different to other games in that regard. also if you watch real world combat footage you can see that firefights over longer distances are dominated by suppression and applying pressure to influence the enemy's movement.

you can easily outsmart the AI with any precision setting if you use cover and flanking. the question is if it's fun to be forced to do certain things because some shortcomings of the AI have to be compensated by aimbot like shooting skills.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Bad Benson

[chrisb 196]

One thing we can be thankful for, ai can use buildings, not great yet, but they can. It had to be modded in A2 to have that happen regularly and reasonably well..

Couple of test vids below, trying to get an ‘ai pbo’ mix going for A3 using existing pbo's we use from A2, just testing out at present, but have to improve the overall ai thinking, if possible..

Just very short 1min test's.

1/

2/

Not my mod/addons but other's that are available, just mixed them up a little..

Lots of work and testing to do, but the A3 ai have to be improved more, thinking wise, maybe not accuracy, but thinking wise 'yes' certainly for our group..

I think that Arma 3 has good movement, once its sorted out speed and glitchy wise. Stance for humans has been good for a while in A2, just need the right addons (SMK lite, is good). I play in first person mostly and therefore don't look at my own movement, but its nice to have several stance modes as standard. Looking at movements in A2 was o.k, not as good, but they weren't bad, I could easily put up with them.

Arma 3 however has real potential, movements are good at standard and will more than likely be improved over time. Just have to have a thinking ai, can't have any group stood around like zombies, excuse the 'pun/reference'..:p

I want to be thinking where are they when I get near to a enemy position, makes for a better and harder firefight.. Place a group in town here in A3 and they will move from building to building (see my A2 ai test vids), this is really good as they are doing their own thinking, finding positions and cover..

Early days of course..:)

[NeMeSiS 11]

Just very short 1min test's.

1/

2/ Test vid two, again just placed with nothing to do. I have added parts from a ‘ai pbo’ mix our group used for A2, just to get the ai thinking for

Soooo... The AI that was ordered by the mission editor to stand around and do nothing suddenly run into a building in combat mode? That seems like a recipe to break some missions, also i dont really get the point: If the mission editor didnt want them to stand around and do nothing then he could just... you know... not let them do that.

[chrisb 196]

Soooo... The AI that was ordered by the mission editor to stand around and do nothing suddenly run into a building in combat mode? That seems like a recipe to break some missions, also i dont really get the point: If the mission editor didnt want them to stand around and do nothing then he could just... you know... not let them do that.

It’s a start to something that may be a mission breaker for you. But for our group building missions the way we do, it’s a big plus.

Having thinking ai, is always a plus, don’t you think..;)

They can of course be left to do nothing, its all alterable, or will be, hopefully.

Have a look at ‘Heavy firefight’ ai test vid A2 (in my sig), two teams one waypoint each, run straight toward each other, no other orders given.. Only two forms of hard cover provided, each way off to the side, 40mtrs away possibly more. In open ground you want thinking ai, not ai that run toward each other and then just drop to the ground when they spot each other, shoot, crawl or crouch and move forward, repeat until dead, don't deviate.

Instead I prefer them to think, there's cover over there, hard cover, try get to it, use it, then find a way of getting to your waypoint alive, probably by flanking..Thinking ai..

Just put it on as an example, what you use or have in A2 or here in A3 is upto you, standard ai is o.k. but not realistic..

[bad benson 1733]

i agree that the a3 AI has a lot of potential. i also agree that too much initiative could be possibly mission breaking. when i work with AI i like to have as much control as possible to avoid stupidity. and you can influence them a lot with simple mission scripting. i have to say though that what bugs me the most is not that they stand idle when i just put them there. it's more how long they still sometimes take to go to the nearest cover after being shot at. there needs to be some basic routine for first enemy contact. otherwise it's too easy to surprise them and wipe them out. my basic test i do is put them on the runway next to buildings and then fire at them. they still hold position when there are buildings/walls right next to them. what has improved though is that the leader sends some of them to look for you which results in some scary human like behaviour (sometimes).

as long as the base is solid and the last pieces of stupidity get removed i trust the community to make the fancy stuff. what we need is a solid base to work with. and we're almost there.

[down8 30]

i actually reduced the AI precision manually down to 0.1 (yea seriously) in my profile and am getting pretty good results much like with AI mods in arma 2. now they still can spot you very far away but those engagements are more pot shots and suppression. close up they still are able to one shot you in the head. you guys should try it. 0.3 was suggested in some thread but i still felt they were still aiming inhumanly over long distances so i reduced it even more. i feel like as a player you can't hit stuff as easy over long distance like in arma 2 (which i like). so the default AI be able to easily do it with their first shot over a long distance when you just have half of your head peaking out over a rock just didn't seem right to me.

and of course i used the same values for both sides. it's a gamble now;)

edit: the profile files is located where your usermissions are. "documents -> arma 3 otherprofiles" (something like that)

The precission parameter in that file has no effect since a patch in arma 2.if you want to reduce accuracy you have to introduce low aiming accuracy values in the skill array like ThE mod ASR ai does.

I have tested it in arma 3.no difference between 0.1 and 0.9 precission. But changing aimingaccuracy On skill array has significant effects.

[smacker909 3]

@Down8 - I wasn't sure if they brought it back in 3 alpha, but i think you're right. I did a few simple tests as well on precision profile parm, and saw no effect either.

On the otherhand, I'm pumped about the AI so far, Just a simple 'clear town' mission is loads more fun. I just setup 4 small RED groups giving them all SnD saypoints 50m radius's and then move in with my squad. They deff. go through houses and will snipe you through windows. Very cool!

[metalcraze 290]

AI firefights are only good at large distances unfortunately. When it's a village or a base it can get pretty messy for AI vs. player due to same issue as with ArmA2 AI - too slow reflexes.

Please upvote this issue: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3592

[SAMstudios-3Dartist 45]

How many of you play with the settings "super AI" enable?

[lugiahua 26]

AI firefights are only good at large distances unfortunately. When it's a village or a base it can get pretty messy for AI vs. player due to same issue as with ArmA2 AI - too slow reflexes.

Please upvote this issue: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3592

I don't know if they are too slow...a few time they almost got me when I attempt to clear rooms..

[ProfTournesol 956]

I don't know if they are too slow...a few time they almost got me when I attempt to clear rooms..

On vanilla settings, they are too slow at close range. It takes them ages to aim at you (that probably simulates weapons sway, such as the "dexterity" value in the weapons config), and sometimes they walk in front of you without even stopping, such as "OMG i hope he didn't see me, i'll behave as if he wasn't here". I didn't make any test in house though.

I'm not complaining though, i find the AI more enjoyable than in ArmA2.

[metalcraze 290]

I don't know if they are too slow...a few time they almost got me when I attempt to clear rooms..

When they are facing you and you have nowhere to move - sure. But in all other cases it's a pitiful view. And it's not just enemy AI, friendly too.

When your friendlies barely rotate to face an enemy coming at them from around the corner and are getting shot as a result it's very annoying.

Note that we are also talking MAX skills AI here. Max skills AI should rotate as fast as game allows.

Nobody really plays with 1.0 AI and max AI skill in the editor, people tend to lower it to suit their playstyle.

Edited March 10, 2013 by metalcraze

[down8 30]

AI firefights are only good at large distances unfortunately. When it's a village or a base it can get pretty messy for AI vs. player due to same issue as with ArmA2 AI - too slow reflexes.

Please upvote this issue: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3592

voted.

[SAMstudios-3Dartist 45]

When they are facing you and you have nowhere to move - sure. But in all other cases it's a pitiful view. And it's not just enemy AI, friendly too.

When your friendlies barely rotate to face an enemy coming at them from around the corner and are getting shot as a result it's very annoying.

Note that we are also talking MAX skills AI here. Max skills AI should rotate as fast as game allows.

Nobody really plays with 1.0 AI and max AI skill in the editor, people tend to lower it to suit their playstyle.

I play with 1.0 AI and super AI enable. but the skill in the editorn i change depending on what type of mission and what type of ranks the have. They pound you to the gorund sometimes but think its good settings :D

[Kuskov 1]

I play with 1.0 AI and super AI enable.

So do I, and it's been an absolute pleasure to finally have a lethal AI that punishes those who don't put cover between themselves and incoming lead. This is EXACTLY how a authentic milsim should be, contact with the enemy should ALWAYS be taken seriously, even if the enemy is engaging from long range. Bohemia have done a tremendous job improving the AI, and the fact that some people are complaining that they are no match for the new AI is bears testemony to that.

[mordeaniischaos 3]

They are too accurate under about 600 M. They are really odd about accuracy actually. Seems like they are either completely innacruate or right on target. And I feel like they spend almost no time missing and adjusting precision fire, which is kind of a bummer. They don't feel very realistic. And a big part of that is their ability to detect you wayyyyy too easily and see you wayyyyyy too easily.

I found the Infantry SHowcase really annoying because without optics I was much less accurate, but the AI didn't feel any less accurate, in fact if anything they were more accurate because of the close range of that firefight.

This stuff would be less of an issue if the AI wouldn't drop to the ground and fire through trees and grass that should obscure their aim, but instead moved to cover and couldn't see you through objects. This would give you a chance to get a bead on them, and get to cover yourself.

I also think they fire a little too much when they aren't in cover. And of course, they fucking ignore suppressive fire. They don't move, they don't lose accuracy, nothing. They just sit there and keep up the fire.

I've really really liked the long range firefights though. They are effectively supressing without obliterating the player.

I've also noticed that they seem to favor attacking the player over the AI, which is really annoying. I've had AI completely disengage my AI buddy to instantly spin around and shoot me in the face.

I'm not sure how I feel about the AI. I'm used to ZUES AI in A2, which was awesome. Enemy forces maneuvered PROPERLY, they weren't hyper accurate or quick to react, etc. They were better in the areas that the core AI were dumb, and less godlike in the ways the core AI was cheap. So for me, this still feels like a huge step backwards.

[fludblud 10]

The irony of this improved AI and animations in regards to military realism is that it might be getting too good to be realistic in some cases.

The popping smoke, flanking, effective shouldering of weapons and correct stances is absolutely great for missions involving conventional military and special forces, but what about future missions involving irregular militias and civilians? if Arma 3 Isla Duala got released tomorrow wouldnt it be weird if the African rebels all acted like super high speed low drag operators? in Arma 2 the default AI and animations were always too bad for this to actually be an issue but now it probably will look glaringly obvious.

Perhaps somehow link an AI's character animations to his skill setting?

For example, an AI with a setting of 0.2 would shoot like this and be reluctant to move, flank or attack when contacted.

Whilst one set at 1.0 with mega accuracy would shoot like this, aggressively flank, take cover and change positions quickly.

Just throwing it out there.

[-Coulum- 35]

The irony of this improved AI and animations in regards to military realism is that it might be getting too good to be realistic in some cases.

The popping smoke, flanking, effective shouldering of weapons and correct stances is absolutely great for missions involving conventional military and special forces, but what about future missions involving irregular militias and civilians? if Arma 3 Isla Duala got released tomorrow wouldnt it be weird if the African rebels all acted like super high speed low drag operators? in Arma 2 the default AI and animations were always too bad for this to actually be an issue but now it probably will look glaringly obvious.

Perhaps somehow link an AI's character animations to his skill setting?

That's when we need mods like ASR AI. if not, mission makers can set the skill of individual units or groups of units.

[down8 30]

That's when we need mods like ASR AI. if not, mission makers can set the skill of individual units or groups of units.

I aggre.I've being thinking about it this afternoon. I hope Robalo want to make ASR AI in Arma 3,because touching each mission init.sqf is an annoyance and his system is very refined and easy to modify.

With a well configured ASR AI, and high skill Ai in the config, I think the AI would be very much improved to Arma 2.

It would be better if the developers tweak and config better the AI soon, and we won't need that mod.

[lugiahua 26]

I was thinking the same. What if I was making a mission about COIN mission against group of militia?

they shouldn't have nearly same accuracy as regular Iraning/NATO soldiers wearing land warrior system.

outside topic: Costa is coming to my town in a few month...maybe I will get chance to attend his class lol

Edited March 10, 2013 by Lugiahua

[metalcraze 290]

I play with 1.0 AI and super AI enable.

Well you do that because you don't find base AI good enough of a challenge for you. And that's the problem.

what about future missions involving irregular militias and civilians?

While animations look realistic - setting enemy skill to nearly zero in the editor with a low skill for AI itself in difficulty does produce the effect of them behaving in a chaotic way.

I've noticed that the higher slider editor skill AI prefers staying a tighter formation and moving from cover to cover more while low skill AI definitely doesn't mind staying somewhat away from the group and often being in the open without cover. I just hope it really is so and I'm not imagining things here through pink glasses :)

Edited March 11, 2013 by metalcraze

[Rudee 1]

I spent the entire weekend testing missions using the Editor. The AI at long distances is very good. At short to medium distances they are pretty dumb. Far too often friendly and enemy AI fail to seek cover when under fire. They stand up in the middle of firefights with no cover and get killed time and time again. They act like chickens with their heads cut off when attacked. Stand up... run 20 feet west out in the open. Stop, turn the other direction, run 20 feet back. Stop turn the other direction, run 30 feet.. Just no logic to why they are running to where they are running. If AI is going to move, I would like to see some logic to their movements. i.e. move to places of cover, or concealment. Or move to avenues to which you can launch a flanking maneuver. But to simply have AI that runs around for no purpose and doesn't properly seek cover or concealment when attacked, is just dumb.