The VSS Vintorez is overpowered

[-Gews- 1]

When browsing through the configs, I noticed the 9x39mm rounds had a hit value of 13.

That's more than 7.62 NATO.

I think the idea of the "Vintorez" being an exotic weapon firing an unusual cartridge is to blame for this.

If we examine the ballistics, we see it fires a 247-grain pointed bullet at a mere 920 fps. Compare that to the standard .45 ACP load of 230 grains at 850 fps and it doesn't seem very impressive. When compared, it also doesn't make sense that the bullet has over twice the damage of the .45 round and a full 50 percent more than a 7.62x39mm round. Given its pointy shape and smaller diameter, it's possible it could have less stopping power than a larger, round-nosed .45 on unarmoured opponents. In my own configs I changed the hit value to 6.

[NoRailgunner 0]

The heavy SP-5 cartridge with hardened steel or tungsten tip is able to fully penetrate a standard army helmet at 400m. The ammo used with VSS Vintorez (SP-5, SP-6, PAB-9) is very effective at penetrating body armor. Usually the weapon is used under 500m (mostly at ranges 50-300m).

[-Gews- 1]

Although it penetrates, the fact remains that it's not very powerful ammunition. There's no way it should be considerably more powerful than a 7.62x39mm that has over 3 times the muzzle energy and even a 7.62 NATO. The penetration is solely due to bullet design, not the round's power.

[slatts 1978]

The 1 point increase is to help achieve replicating the higher penetrability over range. The 7.62 does 12 and travels a lot faster...it's just one little point.

[Kamov 1]

Its a gun. It kills people.

[slatts 1978]

Its a gun. It kills people.

^ This.

[celery 8]

In Arma 2, the VSS does the same amount of damage at point blank as a .50 cal rifle last I checked. You can disable an armored vehicle with it, and softer targets like nobody's business. Yet its penetration capabilities are quite poor, so penetration isn't a valid reason for the massive hit value.

I'd say it's overpowered for a subsonic round much smaller (9x39mm) than a .50 cal round (12.7x99mm).

[-Gews- 1]

Actually, end discussion, it is overpowered. A hit of 13 is (in my opinion) already too powerful, but I just found a Dev-Heaven ticket which says "typicalSpeed" was set to half the muzzle velocity.

That means at the muzzle, the ammunition has a hit of 26, or the same as a .50 BMG.

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/25488

[Jastreb 69]

Its added to the "queue".

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/28525

escription

This is to serve as a list for inspiration to make suggestions for the A2 CCP.

Be aware that is NOT a task list.

If you want something addressed, you are to create a new ticket in the A2 CPP

for the given fix/change and provide the require information for a quality submission.

Now you need to beg ;)

Edited January 20, 2013 by _MaSSive

[dreday 1]

I'll be the first one to admit that I am not an expert on balistics, not do I have any first hand experince with VSS and AS. However, from what I've read - the SP5 munitions are much heavier compared to the regular 7.62 rounds and they tend to do a lot more demage due to this (altought they are obviously not in the same league as .50 cal/12.7mm ).

I think that another issue here is that VSS is a very specialized weapon and its realistic effective range is something like 250-300 meteres, while it is much longer in vanila ARMA 2 from what I remember; this and the high hit point value tend to make it into a super weapon... Then again, I only play with ACE and the VSS/AS seem to be much more balanced there.

Peace,

DreDay

Edited January 20, 2013 by DreDay

[max power 21]

There are a lot of things to consider when you're thinking about wounding. I think the reason the damage is high currently is because the rounds are intended to pierce body armour even at its subsonic speed. Also, while there is a damage statistic for weapons, it is also modulated by other factors such as the structure of what you are shooting at and the velocity of the bullet. While I do agree the damage is probably too high, especially when you consider how it damages vehicles, I do not believe that it is the equivalent of a .45 acp.

[-Gews- 1]

However, from what I've read - the SP5 munitions are much heavier compared to the regular 7.62 rounds and they tend to do a lot more demage due to this (altought they are obviously not in the same league as .50 cal/12.7mm ).

Yes, the bullet is heavier. However the speed is almost 2000 feet per second slower.

I've created a little graphic to compare the 45 ACP and the 9x39mm. There is a .45 bullet superimposed on a 9x39mm bullet. The red bars show muzzle energy.

The round is much closer ballistically to the .45 ACP than to other rifle rounds. The Soviets were not trying to make a high-performing cartridge with the 9x39mm, they were trying to make a purpose-built subsonic cartridge. It is deliberately loaded to low power levels so it stays under the speed of sound and does not make a sonic crack. The SP-5 cartridge is apparently designed to yaw - if it yaws in a body, this would increase its stopping power.

However, yawing is not as effective as fragmentation, and 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm rounds, as well as certain 7.62 NATO loads also have various degrees of tumbling.

In the config, the muzzle velocity was also set to almost 2,000 feet per second. If that was the case in real life, I would have no problem with the higher "hit" value, but it isn't. Perhaps someone read wrong data and set the stopping power higher because of that.

[slatts 1978]

I looked at the config, the 7.62 travels many times faster then the VSS round ;)

[-Gews- 1]

I looked at the config, the 7.62 travels many times faster then the VSS round ;)

class B_9x39_SP5 : BulletBase {
	hit = 13;
	indirectHit = 0;
	indirectHitRange = 0;
	cartridge = "FxCartridge_9mm";
	cost = 5;
	typicalSpeed = 150;
	visibleFire = 0.07;	// how much is visible when this weapon is fired
	audibleFire = 0.07;
	visibleFireTime = 2;	// how long is it visible
	airFriction = -0.001;
	caliber = 0.33;
};

class 10Rnd_9x39_SP5_VSS : CA_Magazine {
	scope = public;
	displayName = "$STR_DN_10Rnd_9x39_SP5_VSS";
	ammo = "B_9x39_SP5";
	count = 10;
	initSpeed = 300;
	picture = "\CA\weapons\data\equip\M_VSSx10_CA.paa";
	descriptionShort = $STR_DSS_10RND_VSS;
};

class 20Rnd_9x39_SP5_VSS : CA_Magazine {
	scope = public;
	displayName = "$STR_DN_20Rnd_9x39_SP5_VSS";
	ammo = "B_9x39_SP5";
	count = 20;
	initSpeed = 300;
	picture = "\CA\weapons\data\equip\M_VSSx20_CA.paa";
	descriptionShort = $STR_DSS_20RND_VSS;
};

Hmm, looks like you are right. I read someone complaining on Dev-Heaven that initSpeed was set to 600 m/s. Perhaps they patched it? Still note that typicalSpeed is still 150 m/s, so it doesn't do "hit = 13" at the muzzle, it does "hit = 13" when the bullet slows to 150 m/s. At the muzzle it would do "hit = 26"!

[Sheepdog 4]

I am fine with it

[-Gews- 1]

I am fine with it

You're fine with the cartridge on the left being as powerful as the cartridge on the right?

You know what other game has the same values for those two rounds? WarZ. Need I say more?

[max power 21]

http://i.imgur.com/hoCzicb.png

You're fine with the cartridge on the left being as powerful as the cartridge on the right?

You know what other game has the same values for those two rounds? WarZ. Need I say more?

Yes you do. So what? WarZ also has 3d graphics. Does that mean that 3d graphics are also indicative of a massive fail? I don't recall the weapon damage values of the WarZ being the main point of contention, or even the gameplay- but rather, the developer's behaviour and their false statements regarding what the potential buyer was getting when he made his initial payment.

[-Gews- 1]

Yes you do. So what? WarZ also has 3d graphics. Does that mean that 3d graphics are also indicative of a massive fail? I don't recall the weapon damage values of the WarZ being the main point of contention, or even the gameplay- but rather, the developer's behaviour and their false statements regarding what the potential buyer was getting when he made his initial payment.

I mentioned WarZ since I saw a thread about how the VSS in that game was overpowered as well, and WarZ reminds me of "bad".

I was playing multiplayer with the VSS last night and it was silly how powerful it was. I could destroy people's trucks and cars by firing at the engine and a hit anywhere on someone's body was an instant kill. At most it should have a hit value of 7 or 8 and a more balanced typicalSpeed. The ballistics are on-par with handguns.

[.kju 3245]

Make a decent CCP ticket is my advice to you

[max power 21]

I mentioned WarZ since I saw a thread about how the VSS in that game was overpowered as well, and WarZ reminds me of "bad".

So you're implying that because this other user is 'fine with it', he has bad taste, or likes bad games, or what?

I was playing multiplayer with the VSS last night and it was silly how powerful it was. I could destroy people's trucks and cars by firing at the engine and a hit anywhere on someone's body was an instant kill. At most it should have a hit value of 7 or 8 and a more balanced typicalSpeed. The ballistics are on-par with handguns.

But the energy is on par with rifles. It will allegedly penetrate 10mm of steel and is designed to yaw inside the body. It's not a simple 'oh this is as useless as a handgun round'.

[zyppeli 1]

Well its quite hard to shoot far with vintorez, also mags are pretty small also.

[Beagle 684]

Well its quite hard to shoot far with vintorez, also mags are pretty small also.

20 rounds is not small.

[-Gews- 1]

So you're implying that because this other user is 'fine with it', he has bad taste, or likes bad games, or what?

Well... bad taste in hit values, yes.

But the energy is on par with rifles. It will allegedly penetrate 10mm of steel and is designed to yaw inside the body. It's not a simple 'oh this is as useless as a handgun round'.

The energy isn't on par with rifles, it has under 500 foot pounds. An AKM has 1,500 foot pounds and a 7.62 Nato has over 2,500 foot pounds. The penetration comes from the bullet construction. Another round that is well-known for its superb penetration of body armor is the Russian 5.45x18mm used in the PSM pistol... yet that round is also known for its extreme lack of stopping power. The 9x39mm probably has good stopping power, but it's simply not on the same level than larger supersonic rifle cartridges. A value of 6 or 7 seems quite reasonable to me. For comparison, 7.62mm NATO AP will penetrate 16mm of steel at 300 m.

Well its quite hard to shoot far with vintorez, also mags are pretty small also.

As far as I can tell it's supposed to be used at closer ranges.

Also, I found this web page which supports my position. http://www.vincelewis.net/spetsnaz.html

The AS Val is chambered for a specially adapted armor piercing 9x39mm subsonic round that produces a velocity about three hundred meters per second and has an effective maximum range of four hundred meters. However, due to the fact that the gun is silenced, only low power subsonic ammunition can be fired.

All subsonic ammunition is designed to travel much slower than regular bullets so they do not create a loud sonic blast, there is also a reduction of stopping power. But in the hands of a well trained Spetsnaz field operative, who would get closer to the enemy and fire a head or neck shot, the loss of stopping power is not a concern.

A target who is shot in the head with one of these bullet weapon combinations would be dead before they hit the ground. The bullet may be low velocity, but it would do the trick every time, as long as it was a dead on shot. And we can suspect that it would be, if fired by a highly trained and motivated special forces Spetsnaz operative.

[max power 21]

I stand corrected. I was thinking of impulse.

[Sakai 1]

well no wonder why it is powerful since it uses 9x39mm SP-6 (high performance armor piercing) and the 9x39 is based on 7.62×39 mm, SP-6 Maximum penetration is up to 10 mm of steel... What do you think that will do inside human body?