Multi-Session Operations v4.5 released

[zaksle75 1]

Jeth I think you have to DePBO it and put it in ARMA 2 Other Profiles > Name > Missions then load it in editor. Everytime I do that though it ruins scripts :l

Curious in this too Jeth as on Takistan ACE I would like the USMC to be desert not green...

[otsit 10]

My MSO Esbekistan Server is running very well with the latest Git now. Only a few minor issues remain. Maybe someone know that might cause these :

Sometimes I see civilians trapped in buildings, usually 2 to 6 of em. They don't move, sometimes they are trapped in the floor.

Every now and then I run across single tires and Jerry cans floating a few feet above the ground. This is usually when there's 10 + people on the server.

Last question: How do I enable food and drink at a rate that you have to drink let's say every 2 hours, food like every 4.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[SavageCDN 231]

Hello good Morning!

I'm trying to modify some unity within the MSO (mso_32_acex_coop_usa_vs_tak_ins_4-55.clafghan.pbo)

As for example swapping a BAF unit to Ragers.

Save and close.PBO

When I go to open the mission on a dedicated server does not work, pops up the screen, Wait for the Host, and then immediately back to the lobby of choice of mission.

Couple of things. If you are editing the mission without changing the PBO's file name, once you hit save it will create a new folder with just the mission.sqm file inside. This is because the mission file name is too long. You need to make sure this isn't the problem (you will see a 2nd mission folder called "mso_32_acex_coop_usa_vs_tak_ins_4" or something... .like it has cut off the last few characters. If this is the case, copy and paste all the files except mission.sqm from the 'old' folder to the new.

Are you sure the dedicated server is also running the correct mods? You could also check the servers .rpt file it should have more information there.

[jetherjr 12]

Thank you for all replies ...

The problem is when I open the. pbo original mission (mso_32_acex_coop_usa_vs_tak_ins_4-55.clafghan.pbo) and re-edity.

For example: I change a unit of BAF for an SF unit, or when I change a Merlin helicopter unit for a unit of the CH-47.

I saved the mission with another name (ej: mso_32_acex_coop_usa_vs_tak_ins_v1.clafghan.pbo) Logically I copy all other files from the original mission for the new mission folder.

Until there all right.

Still inside of the multiplayer editor I give a preview and everything works correctly, but when I close the mission to a pbo file. I caught this pbo and put in the folder MPmission of the dedicated server.

So it is there that the problem happens when I try to run this new mission with the units replaced on a dedicated server, the screen appears wait for host and back to the esolhas lobby missions almost immediately.

Want to know if anyone knows what is really going on or I may have to make changes in some script so that you can recognize the new drive that put.

The funny thing is that by testing Multiplayer Editor preview of pleo still everything works fine with by ej: respaw, tasks etc.

Help please ...

P.S:

Jeth I think you have to DePBO it and put it in ARMA 2 Other Profiles > Name > Missions then load it in editor. Everytime I do that though it ruins scripts :l

Curious in this too Jeth as on Takistan ACE I would like the USMC to be desert not green...

I did not understand what you meant, please if possible please explain better detailed, I would be very grateful. Thanks

Couple of things. If you are editing the mission without changing the PBO's file name, once you hit save it will create a new folder with just the mission.sqm file inside. This is because the mission file name is too long. You need to make sure this isn't the problem (you will see a 2nd mission folder called "mso_32_acex_coop_usa_vs_tak_ins_4" or something... .like it has cut off the last few characters. If this is the case, copy and paste all the files except mission.sqm from the 'old' folder to the new.

As I commented at the beginning of the post I really do all this process of copying all files from the original mission, minus the mission.sqm

Edited February 27, 2013 by jetherjr

[SavageCDN 231]

Still a bit unclear.. you are running the same mods on the server as well correct?

[jetherjr 12]

Still a bit unclear.. you are running the same mods on the server as well correct?

Yes, I am running the same mods used at the new mission on dedicated server

thanks

[SavageCDN 231]

Any way you can post your .rpt file for us to look at?

[jetherjr 12]

Any way you can post your .rpt file for us to look at?

Yes, I will

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------

This is my ARMA2OASERVER.RPT from dedicated server.

=====================================================================
== C:\Steam Spelho\arma 2 operation arrowhead\ARMA2OASERVER.exe
== arma2oaserver.exe  -nosplash -mod=@ace;@acex;@acex_ru;@acex_usnavy;@acre;@basic;@cba;@cba_a2;@cba_oa;@clafghan;@extras;@ilhas_required;@jayarma2lib;@yup_uh60_beta13;@kyo_mh47e v1.2;@ranger_pack; -profiles=MSO-Clafghan -name=MSO-Clafghan -cpuCount=8 -exThreads=3 -port=2302 -cfg=combate\basic.cfg -config=server.cfg
=====================================================================
Exe timestamp: 2012/11/28 09:19:08
Current time:  2013/02/27 22:14:26

Version 1.62.95251
File nim_weather\config.cpp, line 558: '/CfgVehicles/ThunderLight.scope': Missing ';' at the end of line
File nim_weather\config.cpp, line 568: '/CfgVehicles/ThunderLight.cost': Missing ';' at the end of line
File nim_weather\config.cpp, line 569: '/CfgVehicles/ThunderLight.armor': Missing ';' at the end of line
File nim_weather\config.cpp, line 585: '/CfgVehicles/ThunderLight/Smoke.initT': Missing ';' at the end of line
File nim_weather\config.cpp, line 586: '/CfgVehicles/ThunderLight/Smoke.deltaT': Missing ';' at the end of line
File nim_weather\config.cpp, line 591: '/CfgVehicles/ThunderLight/Smoke/Table/T1.maxT': Missing ';' at the end of line
File nim_weather\config.cpp, line 596: '/CfgVehicles/ThunderLight/Smoke/Table/T2.maxT': Missing ';' at the end of line
File nim_weather\config.cpp, line 601: '/CfgVehicles/ThunderLight/Smoke/Table/T3.maxT': Missing ';' at the end of line
Updating base class FlagCarrierCore->Strategic, by flags\config.cpp/CfgVehicles/FlagCarrier/
Updating base class HouseBase->, by ibr\ibr_airports\config.bin/CfgVehicles/House/
Updating base class ->HouseBase, by ibr\ibr_hangars\config.bin/CfgVehicles/House/
Updating base class ->BulletCore, by ca\weapons\config.bin/CfgAmmo/BulletBase/
Updating base class ->ShellCore, by ca\weapons\config.bin/CfgAmmo/ShellBase/
Updating base class ->LauncherCore, by ca\weapons\config.bin/cfgWeapons/RocketPods/
Updating base class ->RocketPods, by ca\weapons\config.bin/cfgWeapons/BombLauncher/
Updating base class BombLauncher->RocketPods, by ca\weapons\config.bin/cfgWeapons/Mk82BombLauncher/
Updating base class BombLauncher->Mk82BombLauncher, by ca\weapons\config.bin/cfgWeapons/Mk82BombLauncher_6/
Updating base class ->Boat, by ca\water\config.bin/CfgVehicles/RHIB/
Updating base class Strategic->FlagCarrierCore, by ca\misc3\config.bin/CfgVehicles/FlagCarrier/
Updating base class ->HeliH, by ca\misc3\config.bin/CfgVehicles/HeliHEmpty/
Updating base class Default->, by chn_crocodile\config.bin/CfgFaces/Man/
Updating base class ->Plane, by ca\a10\config.bin/CfgVehicles/A10/
Updating base class ->Small_items, by ca\mp_armory\misc\laptop\config.bin/CfgVehicles/Laptop_EP1/
Updating base class F35_base->Plane, by warfxveh\config.bin/CfgVehicles/F35B/
Updating base class ->Mi24_Base_TK_EP1, by ca\air_e\config.bin/CfgVehicles/Mi24_D_Base_TK_EP1/
Updating base class Plane->F35_base, by ca\air_e\config.bin/CfgVehicles/F35B/
Updating base class ->UH60M_base_EP1, by ca\air_e\uh60m\config.bin/CfgVehicles/UH60M_US_base_EP1/
Updating base class ->Default, by ca\characters_d_baf\config.bin/CfgFaces/Man/
Updating base class Turrets->, by cct_hwmmv_m240\config.cpp/CfgVehicles/HMMWV_Armored/Turrets/
Updating base class MainTurret->MainTurret, by cct_hwmmv_m240\config.cpp/CfgVehicles/HMMWV_Armored/Turrets/MainTurret/
Updating base class ->Turrets, by x\ace\addons\c_vehicle\config.bin/CfgVehicles/HMMWV_Armored/Turrets/
Updating base class MainTurret->MainTurret, by x\ace\addons\c_vehicle\config.bin/CfgVehicles/HMMWV_Armored/Turrets/MainTurret/
Updating base class BombLauncher->Mk82BombLauncher, by x\ace\addons\c_vehicle\config.bin/CfgWeapons/ACE_Mk82BombLauncher/
Updating base class BombLauncher->ACE_Mk82BombLauncher, by x\ace\addons\c_vehicle\config.bin/CfgWeapons/ACE_Mk82BombLauncher2/
Updating base class ->ACE_ShotgunBase, by x\acex\addons\c_wep_shotgun\config.bin/CfgWeapons/ACE_SPAS12/
Updating base class ->M1014, by x\acex\addons\c_wep_shotgun\config.bin/CfgWeapons/ACE_M1014_Eotech/
Updating base class ->ACE_CSWDM, by x\ace\addons\sys_crewserved\config.bin/CfgMagazines/ACE_TOW_CSWDM/
Updating base class ->LaserBombCore, by x\ace\addons\sys_clusterbombs\config.bin/CfgAmmo/ACE_LaserCore/
File description.ext, line 38: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 18: '/dynamicTerrain/CloseDialogButton.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 50: '/dynamicTerrain/LowGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 82: '/dynamicTerrain/MediumGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 114: '/dynamicTerrain/HighGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 38: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 18: '/dynamicTerrain/CloseDialogButton.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 50: '/dynamicTerrain/LowGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 82: '/dynamicTerrain/MediumGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 114: '/dynamicTerrain/HighGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.debriefing': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 1: '.showmap': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 2: '.showGPS': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 3: '.showCompass': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 4: '.showWatch': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 5: '.showNotepad': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 9: '.onloadintro': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 12: '.onloadmission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.debriefing': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 1: '.showmap': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 2: '.showGPS': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 3: '.showCompass': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 4: '.showWatch': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 5: '.showNotepad': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 9: '.onloadintro': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 12: '.onloadmission': Missing ';' at the end of line
MPMissions\zc33.Zargabad: string @STRM_mission_description cannot be localized client-side - move to global stringtable
ca\missions\MPScenarios\MP_Deathmatch.chernarus: string @str_mpdeathmatch_subname cannot be localized client-side - move to global stringtable
"############################# Start  #############################"
File description.ext, line 38: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 18: '/dynamicTerrain/CloseDialogButton.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 50: '/dynamicTerrain/LowGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 82: '/dynamicTerrain/MediumGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 114: '/dynamicTerrain/HighGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 38: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 18: '/dynamicTerrain/CloseDialogButton.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 50: '/dynamicTerrain/LowGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 82: '/dynamicTerrain/MediumGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 114: '/dynamicTerrain/HighGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.debriefing': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 1: '.showmap': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 2: '.showGPS': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 3: '.showCompass': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 4: '.showWatch': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 5: '.showNotepad': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 9: '.onloadintro': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 12: '.onloadmission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.debriefing': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 1: '.showmap': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 2: '.showGPS': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 3: '.showCompass': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 4: '.showWatch': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 5: '.showNotepad': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 9: '.onloadintro': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 12: '.onloadmission': Missing ';' at the end of line
MPMissions\zc33.Zargabad: string @STRM_mission_description cannot be localized client-side - move to global stringtable
ca\missions\MPScenarios\MP_Deathmatch.chernarus: string @str_mpdeathmatch_subname cannot be localized client-side - move to global stringtable
"############################# Start  #############################"
Missing addons detected:
 kyo_mh47e
 norrn_slingropes
 2ndrangers
Warning Message: You cannot play/edit this mission; it is dependent on downloadable content that has been deleted.kyo_mh47e, norrn_slingropes, 2ndrangers
File description.ext, line 38: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 18: '/dynamicTerrain/CloseDialogButton.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 50: '/dynamicTerrain/LowGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 82: '/dynamicTerrain/MediumGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 114: '/dynamicTerrain/HighGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 38: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.onLoadMission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 18: '/dynamicTerrain/CloseDialogButton.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 50: '/dynamicTerrain/LowGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 82: '/dynamicTerrain/MediumGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File TerrainSettings.hpp, line 114: '/dynamicTerrain/HighGrass.action': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.debriefing': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 1: '.showmap': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 2: '.showGPS': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 3: '.showCompass': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 4: '.showWatch': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 5: '.showNotepad': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 9: '.onloadintro': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 12: '.onloadmission': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 0: '.debriefing': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 1: '.showmap': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 2: '.showGPS': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 3: '.showCompass': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 4: '.showWatch': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 5: '.showNotepad': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 9: '.onloadintro': Missing ';' at the end of line
File description.ext, line 12: '.onloadmission': Missing ';' at the end of line
MPMissions\zc33.Zargabad: string @STRM_mission_description cannot be localized client-side - move to global stringtable
ca\missions\MPScenarios\MP_Deathmatch.chernarus: string @str_mpdeathmatch_subname cannot be localized client-side - move to global stringtable
"############################# Start mso_32_acex_coop_usa_vs_tak_v3 #############################"

Thanks

Edited February 28, 2013 by jetherjr

[zaksle75 1]

otsit what mods are you using on your server?

ACE, ACRE, CBA

exa-rg31

rangers

SNR (paladin)

yup_uh60

MH47-E chinook

Reshmaan map (also saw same error using TUP Quom)

How'd you get the uh60 and paladins in there? Was expecting them to be auto-added as they have [uS Army] at the end. Using different map though.

[XMDM 1]

Jetherjr-

Looks like you need to install kyo_mh47e, norrins fast rope, and 2ndrangers on your server...or if they're already installed, make sure they're in your server command line.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

[SavageCDN 231]

How'd you get the uh60 and paladins in there? Was expecting them to be auto-added as they have [uS Army] at the end. Using different map though.

Not sure what you mean by auto-added... they are just mods like any other... they need to be downloaded, installed and added to your startup line.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?121095-M109A6-Paladin-v1-1-%28UPDATED%29

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?131380-Blackhawks-by-YuraPetrov

[jetherjr 12]

Thank you very much for the replies .... Funny that it was actually loading all the mods on the dedicated server, but I believe that the line of command was incorrect. had a space between the mods ...

Yesterday together with a friend he looked to this error.

Thanks again and any xoia I ask here ...

Regards

[otsit 10]

Anyone care to explain how to restrict the ability to call supplies to certain persons only?

Oh and btw, still havent figured out how to use the food / drink module. Any takers pretty please?

[GhostSniper 28]

Anyone care to explain how to restrict the ability to call supplies to certain persons only?

Oh and btw, still havent figured out how to use the food / drink module. Any takers pretty please?

Sorry my english is google translator.

Using the system of food GBL_Aim mod. To use it you need to set a special key to access this menu keys ArmA2 settings, go to the dropdown and select all controls.

Go to the custom key option 19 and choose a key of your choice, in my group chose the H key

After setting, return to the game, go to the scroll menu and press and hold the H key, this time two new options will appear, the Player menu and Order to Stop.

Choose Player menu will be open a screen where you will have the options of food and drink.

Regarding permissions'm still learning but there is a script called rmm_MP_rights this is responsible for these.

[zaksle75 1]

Not sure what you mean by auto-added... they are just mods like any other... they need to be downloaded, installed and added to your startup line.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?121095-M109A6-Paladin-v1-1-%28UPDATED%29

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?131380-Blackhawks-by-YuraPetrov

I use sixupdater with alot of mods and I've added some vehicles and they had [uSMC] at the end, they were automatically available to logistics demand in MSO and [uS Army] had the tank, a few humvees and the MH47 I've added. But they didn't have the Paladin or UH60s which end with [uS Army].

Edited March 1, 2013 by Zaksle75

[zaksle75 1]

Highhead, on the next release are you able to make the USMC slots in Takistan the ACE Desert Marines that are included in ACE? Everytime I switch em out it ruins the mission.

[TG Marksman X 10]

Ruins it in what way?

Have you considered making your own mission in the editor for MSO using the MSO mission base code?

[zaksle75 1]

I'm not a mission maker, I took the PBO and did the Local Profile thing so I can open it in editor and then put it back but it had no scripts or any MSO features at all. But the ACE one should have had the Desert USMC anyways rather than the Woodland USMC because it's ACE edition lol

[TG Marksman X 10]

I'm not a mission maker, I took the PBO and did the Local Profile thing so I can open it in editor and then put it back but it had no scripts or any MSO features at all. But the ACE one should have had the Desert USMC anyways rather than the Woodland USMC because it's ACE edition lol

Scripts would be missing if you changed the name of it when you saved it in the editor. Just copy everything from the original mission you de-pbo'd (except for the mission.sqm) into your newly named mission and save it again - without changing the name.

Are you clicking on the units directly to change them? Or deleting them and adding new ones? The units are most likely named, with ranks, and something in thier init lines - so if you delete them, it is absolutely going to 'ruin' the mission.

How did it ruin the mission?

[SavageCDN 231]

Yeah make sure it's not creating a new folder with just the mission.sqm file inside.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?142683-Multi-Session-Operations-v4-5-released&p=2305568&viewfull=1#post2305568

[Riserburn504 0]

I would like to alter the standard recruitment in a particular way to reflect my mission scenario. I play with only a small group of people and we use AI in these MSO missions. I would like to have the players in an "advisory" role. Therefore I would like for my American Army or USMC or whatever, to be able to recruit local soldiers for their squad.

So far I have tried to alter this line from the main.sqf contained in rmm_recruitment:

tup_recruit_classes = [0, faction player,"Man"] call mso_core_fnc_findVehicleType;

I tried to replace faction player with "ID_AFR" in several different ways. "ID_AFR" is the west army faction from Isla Duala. I'm fairly sure by writing what I attempted to do, shows my ignorance on all of this, so please, a little mercy. Is it even possible to be able to get to what I would like?

[jiltedjock 10]

I would like to alter the standard recruitment in a particular way to reflect my mission scenario. I play with only a small group of people and we use AI in these MSO missions. I would like to have the players in an "advisory" role. Therefore I would like for my American Army or USMC or whatever, to be able to recruit local soldiers for their squad.

So far I have tried to alter this line from the main.sqf contained in rmm_recruitment:

tup_recruit_classes = [0, faction player,"Man"] call mso_core_fnc_findVehicleType;

I tried to replace faction player with "ID_AFR" in several different ways. "ID_AFR" is the west army faction from Isla Duala. I'm fairly sure by writing what I attempted to do, shows my ignorance on all of this, so please, a little mercy. Is it even possible to be able to get to what I would like?

I am pretty sure the faction name is AFR_Army

[Riserburn504 0]

I am pretty sure the faction name is AFR_Army

So you think I just had the wrong faction name? Would you happen to know the syntax for changing which units you can recruit?

[nuclearwinter76 1]

I've made my own variant of the MSO mission on CLAfghan, and everything is done and working. However, I was playing it for a while and I realized that I could not call in a Logistics Request. The button was just not on the menu. So I searched and searched and searched through all the inits and followed the initialization of all the modules, and as far as I can tell there's nothing wrong along its path to initialization. What's going on?

[jiltedjock 10]

hi, I've been playing around with one of the latest Dev builds of 4.6, on IslaDuala. Really good - the locality options are great for single player using dedi server/client on multi core: 'ultra' graphics, 5k viewdistance, 4 cores running at 70 to 90%, server steady on 50FPS, client stable on 45. Result! Pinned down by Rebel technicals had to call in two Ugly callsigns for air support, not a single stutter or frame drop. None of the giveaway CQB spawn micro stutters either.