Please fix the pathfinding

[Daeion 1]

I agree. I bought this game because I had fond memories of CC back in 1988...

This however... It just feels like a waste of time.

I don't want to manually pull out 4 walrus's out of a cliff because they were too dumb to use the bridge. Not to mention that sometimes a succesfull retreat turns into a disaster when the unit drives into a tree and destroys himself.

Not to mention repairing/rearming/refueling. There's no other way to do it than manually. It works for 1 unit and the other 3 get stuck, even pulling back from a repair station can turn into a joke...

It sure has been a long time since I saw pathfinding/AI this pathetic. I'm contemplating asking my money back. I've got more interesting stuff to do than waste time to handhold a bunch of futuristic tanks over a bridge....

[Mortem86 10]

Yes i have patch 1.02....

[Gnrl_Grad 1]

Ah. I'm assuming you know an awful lot about robotics, artificial intelligence and engineering since you can tell us exactly how it's realistic for incredibly advanced military robots from the far future to behave, then?

Yeah of course :rolleyes: This is a game and a fictitious world etc. And in this fictitious world I am happy to believe that ai driven vehicles are less than perfect so it doesn't bother me so much when they faulter. Would I like better ai in the game? Of course I would, who wouldn't, there's a lot of room for improvement, but for me it doesn't have to be (and most likely won't be) as good as human controlled.

[species1571 64]

Yes the AI is not perfect, I have set waypoints which are directly ahead in a straight line and hit execute only to watch them turn around and go in the opposite direction. I've just gotten into the habit of manually intervening and helping them out of tight spots. In the original you had to do it all manually anyway.

PS I've only played the campaign so far, and while it's not perfect, I am still loving every minute of it. Nice change to play something that takes a bit of time and thought.

[pcbflare 1]

The pathfinding really needs a big rehaul... In those few hours game is out i experienced almost everything mentioned here + some really insane stuff - for example: I was manually driving walrus 6 with 7 & 8 following me. At one point, those following got somehow stuck side-by-side. AI tried to remedy this situation by maneuvering 7 around 8 and vice-versa. Those two walruses started making circles one around the other even after i stopped the one, they were following. I just watched how will it end, and for five minutes, those two artificial idiots just circled around, all the while slightly getting further and further away from the one they were supposed to follow... Really funny, for a while. But this shouldn't be realtime comedy i think...

[maddogx 13]

Since we're all piling on here, I guess I'll chip in too: yep, the Walrus path finding is absolutely atrocious. Even when pointed straight at their target (with a clear line of sight) they will manage to get stuck somewhere, driving in circles or whatever.

For me personally, this is the bug with the highest priority and needs to be fixed ASAP. The game would be infinitely more enjoyable if we weren't forced to babysit (micro manage) the Walruses.

[MrSquid 1]

I do have to admit that, while I do like this game, I did have to get up and walk away for a while because Larry, Moe, and Curly drove in three different directions to try and follow me. One got stuck in an alley between a building and a wall, the other got stuck on the wall like a monorail (not even sure exactly how) and the other trundled out the other exit to the area and took a scenic route. Meanwhile the poor Walrus I was controlling got turned into swiss cheese by the enemy mantas.

I very calmly quit the game and walked into the other room and watched TV for a while to let my incredulous rage simmer down. My only consolation was that the enemy walruses didn't really fare much better. I had really hoped this would be improved after the lengthy discussion (okay, complaining) about it in the beta, but it doesn't seem to have made the cut.

I think it is telling that the only issue that any of the the original reviewers mentioned was walrus pathfinding.

[wilddemoncat 1]

Bah I see no problems, its the best cat herding sim I've ever played.

Petition to rename walrus to ADD Cat.

Really though apart form this I enjoy it.

[Anticept 10]

I'll march to the beat of this thread's drum, and ask for focus to be -entirely- on path-finding until it is fixed.

[Suranis 1]

Looking at the way the AI behaves, what its actually doing is creating small waypoints just ahead of itself as it drives along, probably places that are marked as the best terain around it and heads for those waypoints all the time. That explains why it heads backwards as its first waypoint can be behind the direction of travel.

There are 3 problems with this approach

A) The waypoint can be behind a rock or a wall

B) its an extremely shortsighted approach. the best way for the next few meters might not be the best way to get to the destination long term.

C) its quite slow as the Walrus is continually decelerating and accelerating.

I think suggestions on how to improve that would be welcomed.

As for myself, I have to admit I'm loving the campaign. even despite the Walrus behaviour. I'm getting used to it, and it does not take too long to just flip back and turn the thing around. Sometimes reseting the destination will make the walrus pick a different waypoint and get moving. And generally its just one walrus out of 3 that's stuck, the other 2 are moving along fine

[pcbflare 1]

As for myself, I have to admit I'm loving the campaign. even despite the Walrus behaviour. I'm getting used to it, and it does not take too long to just flip back and turn the thing around. Sometimes reseting the destination will make the walrus pick a different waypoint and get moving. And generally its just one walrus out of 3 that's stuck, the other 2 are moving along fine

Well in my case it's pretty much every walrus set to follow, and even though it's not such a big problem to switch and correct, it should not be necessary in the first place... I don't really get the "it's not a big deal after all" opinion - for me it breaks the game... Although i want the feature from Hostile Waters - to be able to choose which unit i want to follow me, and to see other units in miniview. Not so hard to add - one # push will only show in the miniview point of view of # unit, second push of # switches on to control of the unit. It could help in overall battle orientation.

[Quantumboredom 1]

The game is really fun and working fairly well (except the occasional crash), except for the walrus path finding.

Getting a four-walrus strike team docked after taking over an island takes almost as long as taking the island in the first place! I suspect I shall be a very active user of the manta walrus pickup doohickey once I can produce it.

[Gugarion 1]

I've registered just to add my voice to this thread. Completely, utterly, no fun at all having to manually control every walrus to get around obstacles and don't get me started on the fact they can't repair and rearm properly. Although technically more playable than some of the other games released way too soon, it needed at least another 3-5 months work to be worth the cost. Added to the bin of disappointments this year.

[Sardinia 10]

I'm starting to regret spending $60 on this... just hoping as a long time ARMA player the modders turn this thing into a gem

[louthelou 1]

There is more that needs to be fixed with the AI, but the idea of increasing the "waypoint reached" trigger radius is what I came here to say. However, increasing it by a lot would be a mistake. Increasing the radius by as little as 1/2 the length of a Walrus would help immensely, as they're not usually missed by that much. This might have a negative effect when nagivating through bases/buildings, but those situations are handled more by inter-waypoint AI. Speaking of which, the ability of a Walrus to use a building needs to be fixed (repair/rearm/refuel; Command Center interaction seems to be ok (building is shaped differently)). They "miss" the building far too often, which results in them driving around like an idiot for (hopefully only) a few moments and damaging themselves on various walls. At worst, they get themselves stuck. I've yet to have one destroy itself, thankfully.

Walruses also have a harder time following another unit which is moving than they do simply going somewhere (if you have 3 Walruses Assisting one and they're driving on land, I guarantee the 3 will get turned around, sidetracked, and/or stuck, even if driving on roads). This likely results from an update of their entire route every time the destination changes due to the assisted unit moving, in combination with other issues. If this is the case, it needs to be designed differently. Assisting units' routes should only be changed as waypoints are added or removed, and then, only add or remove from the existing route. I don't know that this is how it works, of course - I'm just guessing a reason.

As far as getting stuck on rocks and such, what is passable and what is not needs to be reevaluated, and behavior for avoiding small obstacles needs to be addressed. A general idea of "more forward movement" coupled with an extended waypoint radius would go a long way to fixing the problem with the Walrus and rocks/ledges/very small cliffs/very sharp turns/etc. The current problem with the "forward movement" idea can be easily illustrated by sending a Walrus anywhere and observing it. It seems like, at every waypoint, speed is reduced or set to zero, then reaccelerated to max to reach the next waypoint. The Walrus needs to be aware that it has an additional waypoint ahead of its current one and the angle formed by the previous, current, and next waypoints. With this information, it can be given a speed to be set upon reaching the waypoint. For example, if the three waypoints are in a straight line or close to it (170-180 degrees), leave speed at full. If it's a 90 degree turn, set throttle to 1/2 for 1 second (or until oriented to new waypoint) then increase to full. Etc. If this is what currently happens, it needs to be adjusted.

In reality, as soon as I started noticing the problems, I was like, "This reminds me of something... oh yeah. ARMA. Duh." What needs to happen is the hiring of an gaming AI specialist. BI seems to have problems with advanced gaming AI, pathfinding/driving AI in particular, though their flying algorithms are decent. Don't get me wrong, I love the game - I'm tabbed out right now, have 16 hours logged into the game already since the release yesterday. I just would like to see the game I envisioned. Not perfect, but not an exercise in frustration-with-a-side-of-fun, either. You might say it's not my vision that's important, but you're only partially right. If the game is viewed as a business project, then as a customer in the intended audience, my views and opinions are very important - as important as the developers', since customer reviews/satisfaction are a major part of a project like this (or should be).

--- Upon further observation, I think it may be the way the waypoints work in stages. Units create large routes with a few waypoints, then use another system to create immediate waypoints to navigate their environment to reach the next "major" waypoint. This uncertainty between major waypoints coupled with the too-small trigger radius is what makes them, at times, drive like Stevie Wonder. If they had a certain route, were allowed a little extra room for error, and kept their foot on the gas a little more, I think they might work a lot better.

Edited September 30, 2012 by louthelou

[Dreadnought808 1]

I must admit, I'm greatly looking forward to playing this when they manage to sort out the pathfinding... considering how much fun I'm already having, despite the suicidal walrusses.

[Fartbake 1]

I registered just to reply to this like a few others.

honestly I love the concept of the game and how it plays. but by god the pathfinding is abysmally atrocious...

not only is the walrus AI completely derpy but the Manta AI isnt that much better.... half of the time they simply sit there and take fire... which results them in dying in less than 5 seconds and here is a kicker...

I had one damaged manta that I commanded to dock. it was high up in the air... no enemy presence on the island. so it should have been fine and simple no? well... it SOMEHOW managed to find a tower and crash into it on its way back to the carrier.... to top it off it was the only manta I had that hard the armor mods so... (at this stage of the campaign) irreplaceable...

this really needs to be looked into in detail and fixed... the fact that people are saying that these issues where in the beta and STILL not improved worries me...

[tortuosit 486]

I'm enjoying strategy part so far, also I got used to the really really bad AI - anyway I have full trust in BI working hard on sorting the Walrus pathfinding[1] out! And I have the hope they improve the Enemies playing intelligence and make the enemy more interesting. Also a bit more randomness please.

[1] I avoid using >2 Walrusses meanwhile, unfortunately!

[BlackAlpha 10]

I've played for an hour. So far, I've noticed abysmal pathfinding on the Walrusses and horrible FPS mechanics. I hope to never see either one ever again, but I guess I'm out of luck.

I love Arma and I know BIS by now, I doubt these things will get fixed. So I'm going to bite the bullet and hope that other parts of the game will compensate for these critical design flaws.

[Tolmos 1]

Sometimes I wonder if they even CAN fix it, or if AI programming just isn't something they are proficient in. The pathfinding in Arma II is still fugly even years later, and this brand new game with a brand new engine is no better. On top of that, I can find posts about the pathfinding in this game all the way back to the first beta.

At this point, one can assume if they could fix it they would have.

Perhaps they might do well to outsource a little? Maybe contract someone with AI expertise to assist the dev team in finding out whats wrong with the design so they can get it fixed.

[tortuosit 486]

Perhaps they might do well to outsource a little? Maybe contract someone with AI expertise to assist the dev team in finding out whats wrong with the design so they can get it fixed.

As everywhere: This probably depends on the testosterone level @ BI. Things like this are not easy and even with your idea it would mean we would have to wait for at least: ages.

[deanolium 1]

I wonder if a cheap fix for this would be for the devs to widen the radius of where the walrus decides it's at a waypoint (even if is only increased for every waypoint but the last). From the map being used to create the waypoints, there's no need to be as exact as it is; and this would lessen the back-and-forwards-with-endless-turning that the walruses suffer from. It won't fix everything, but it probably would help without being much strain on the engine (which spline paths would be)

[Tasslehoff 1]

I don't think the AI recognises bridges either, I have walrus' set to follow each other on Granite, as soon as I get to either of the north bridges and start to cross it the others think there's a gorge/chasm and throw a fit trying to find an alternate path down the mountain face/turning around circling each other ugh.

[Suranis 1]

You have to remember that pathfinding AI is horrendously difficult. Google A* Pathfinding for Beginners, that is about as simple an example as they come. And you will begin to appreciate how complicated AI Pathfinding actually is.

Believe it or not the AI here is not the worst I have ever seen in an RTS strategy game. Dark Riegn 2 had pathing AI so bad it would jumble up all your units when they turned a corner and only release them one at a time, for example. That said, hostile waters AI was pretty ok, but they did not have trees to contend with and the vehicles could basically drive anywhere so there was no possibility of getting stuck on anything. If they did that on this game it would remove a lot of the tactical elements.

[karan13 1]

I just got the game on the Xbox 360 and downloaded the patch and was glad to hear it update the pathing for the walrus. After 4 hours into the campaign I have come across the first defensive island and its here where I finally gave up on the path finding, because I was under the impression that I don't have to micromanage the units in the game, and that's all I was doing. My walrus was 400 meters from the carrier and it was clear water, and I asked it to dock. I watched as it did a U-Turn (I drove it all the way out to the water) and it decided that to dock it had to go back all the way to the island and through enemies base. Multiple reloads and trying different things and for some reason even 200 meters away, the walrus won't dock. I had to drive each one (3 by this time) to the carrier and dock that way.

I know path finding is hard, but there are definitely some issues here. I thought it was funny the first time my unit ran into a wall as it turned around. Now, I just hit RB so that I can take over the unit and have to somehow try to command each one.