More realistic/depressing feeling

[Madeon 6]

Is the problem here the popping out and living because of ineffective incoming fire, or popping out and dying because of effective incoming fire?

The problem is that, in a real life situation, a soldier wouldn't dare to pop out while under extremely heavy fire, so he would need to either stay pinned behind cover or, if possible, fall back to a new position or, get his comrades to suppress the enemy that is suppressing him. But because arma is only a game players won't give a shit if they return fire and are killed in the process, they will take the gamble and engage in a COD style slugfest with the person suppressing them, and in many instances will kill the person suppressing them with a lucky shot, a lucky shot that they would never have even considered to fire in a real life situation.

If there is no fear factor it's going to be a COD style slugfest, I would much prefer to engage in lengthy firefights.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Is the problem here the popping out and living because of ineffective incoming fire, or popping out and dying because of effective incoming fire?

Both really, former being applied to AI: ineffective utilisation of rate of fire, slow tracking mechanisms, it often feels as if AI won't fire till they have an absolute lock with 99% hit rate. This lock deadzone needs to be increased, even if they miss like 40% of the bullets.

The latter rings true in PVP with respawns.

[dmarkwick 261]

Is the problem here the popping out and living because of ineffective incoming fire, or popping out and dying because of effective incoming fire?

There's no problem as such, I'm just trying to forge a reason for players to not expose themselves casually. As genuine fear cannot be that mechanism, reduced effectiveness might be. It's not the same thing, but it's a mechanism that does the same thing. You are still perfectly welcome to pop your head out and risk a few *not bad* shots, but you won't be your usual sharpshooting self.

[Madeon 6]

I haven't seen a demonstration/example or an in-depth definition/description of this. Sorry. :(

You have posted some examples here yourself, ACE 2 system for example. Perhaps you have forgotten that this thread is about implimenting a better suppression system into vanilla arma3.

[celery 8]

The problem is that, in a real life situation, a soldier wouldn't dare to pop out while under extremely heavy fire, so he would need to either stay pinned behind cover or, if possible, fall back to a new position or, get his comrades to suppress the enemy that is suppressing him.

Essentially you want the game to make an everyday (in Arma gameplay) tactical decision for you by making the alternative a near 100% suicide regardless of circumstance? I don't think emotion or simulated emotion is the reason why we try not to get killed IRL or in game, and the kind of emotion that makes us do stupid or unexpected things or want to stay in cover even when not strictly necessary is already simulated by the player himself, and people are different.

[EDcase 87]

As has been said before: A game cannot visualise emotions such as fear and force them on the player. These have to come from the players themselves.

The idea is to make the player genuinely scared to poke their head around a corner rather than have some visual effect to say that they should be scared.

What A3 needs to provoke these emotions is effective sound effects (including better 3d positioning) of bullet impacts nearby and perhaps some nice dust kicks (which could occasionally hit the screen if close enough)

Edited August 24, 2012 by EDcase

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

You have posted some examples here yourself, ACE 2 system for example. Perhaps you have forgotten that this thread is about implimenting a better suppression system into vanilla arma3.

None of what I had posted makes bullets into a psychedelic hallucinations inducer. :)

[froggyluv 2136]

Adrenalin sharpens your vision, a direct, apparent threat will be quickly refocused and tracked no matter what - is this disputed?

Wiki:

Tachypsychia is a neurological condition that alters the perception of time, usually induced by physical exertion, drug use, or a traumatic event. It is sometimes referred to by martial arts instructors and self defense experts as the Tachy Psyche effect. For someone affected by tachypsychia, time perceived by the individual either lengthens, making events appear to slow down, or contracts, objects appearing as moving in a speeding blur. It is believed that tachypsychia is induced by a combination of high levels of dopamine and norepinephrine, usually during periods of great physical stress and/or in violent confrontation

Upon being stimulated by fear or anger, the adrenal medulla may automatically produce the hormone epinephrine (aka adrenaline) directly into the blood stream. This can have various effects on various bodily systems, including:

• Increased heart rate and blood pressure. It is common for a tachypsychia subject's pulse to rise to between 200 and 300 beats per minute (bpm). Increased heart rate (above 250 bpm) can cause fainting, and the body may adduct all limbs, adopting fetal position, in preparation for a coma.
  
• Dilation of the bronchial passages, permitting higher absorption of oxygen.
  
• Dilated pupils to allow more light to enter, and visual exclusion—tunnel vision—occurs, allowing greater focus but resulting in the loss of peripheral vision.
  
• Release of glucose into the bloodstream, generating extra energy by raising the blood sugar level.
  

It is common for an individual to experience auditory exclusion or sensitivity. It is also common for individuals to experience an increased pain tolerance, loss of color vision, short term memory loss, decreased fine motor skills, decreased communication skills, or decreased coordination.

Psychological response

The most common experience during tachypsychia is the feeling that time has either increased or slowed down, brought on by the increased brain activity cause by epinephrine, or the severe decrease in brain activity caused by the "catecholamine washout" occurring after the event.

It is common for an individual experiencing tachypsychia to have serious misinterpretations of their surroundings during the events, through a combination of their altered perception of time, as well as transient partial color blindness and tunnel vision. After the irregularly high levels of adrenaline consumed during sympathetic nervous system activation, an individual may display signs and symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, and it is common for the person to display extreme emotional lability and fatigue, regardless of their actual physical exertion.

It is possible to manage the "adrenaline dump" still occurring after the event, and it is common for soldiers and martial artists to use tachypsychia in order to increase their performance during stressful situations

.

Not that it's disputed but your leaving out the rest of the symptoms of Adreniline Dumps or Tachypsychia. I seriously doubt any player will experince the highlighted above just ''being under fire' in Arma. If they do -might be time to see an Endocrinoligist

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Aww, but where's the "great physical stress" with bullets merely flying around, not hitting the subject? That's an over-reaction by the nervous system, bordering on system shutdown due to extreme pain.

Are we talking wounds again?

These extremes of either side are getting boring. There shouldn't any gimmicks to the collection of systems, which is ArmA - just simulate proper physics and its effects on infantry and we will all be fine -> See ACE 2. I'd rather wait for an eletrode-to-the-brain helmet with VR displays to simulate anything concerning consciousness.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Madeon 6]

Essentially you want the game to make an everyday (in Arma gameplay) tactical decision for you by making the alternative a near 100% suicide regardless of circumstance? I don't think emotion or simulated emotion is the reason why we try not to get killed IRL or in game, and the kind of emotion that makes us do stupid or unexpected things or want to stay in cover even when not strictly necessary is already simulated by the player himself, and people are different.

What I want is for suppressive fire to play a significant role in arma3's gameplay. The role of suppressive fire in combat appears to be very much underestimated around here, it's an extremely important and effective real world tactic that in my opinion is sorely missing in vanilla arma's game mechanics. In the real world suppression wins firefights, I would like to see this reflected in arma's gameplay.

If given permission I am prepared to upload footage of a firefight where 3 men are pinned down by heavy fire small arms fire and are unable to effectively return fire without getting killed. In desperation they attempt to return fire and one by one are all killed. It's harrowing footage and to my knowledge has never been uploaded to the internet, I am prepared to upload the footage not to shock, but to impress upon people how real war is fought and the importance of suppression fire.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

If given permission I am prepared to upload footage of a firefight where 3 men are pinned down by heavy fire small arms fire and are unable to effectively return fire without getting killed. In desperation they attempt to return fire and one by one are all killed. It's harrowing footage and to my knowledge has never been uploaded to the internet, I am prepared to upload the footage not to shock, but to impress upon people how real war is fought and the importance of suppression fire.

Happens all the time in ArmA II, you joined this game late, most of us are waiting for ArmA III to show you how it's done.

jbqzST_3Bno

Analyse the encounters, tell me how would my character behave in each of the situations presented, what horrific convulsions must I go through to accomplish this mission?

Thanks

Edited August 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Madeon 6]

Happens all the time in ArmA II, you joined this game late, most of us are waiting for ArmA III to show you how it's done.

Iroquois I can say with all certainty that you have never seen the ugly face of war, this is evident by some of your foolish remarks such as -

but where's the "great physical stress" with bullets merely flying around, not hitting the subject?.

It's probably best you don't see real war footage, you wouldn't be able to sleep if you did...

[batto 17]

Iroquois I can say with all certainty that you have never seen the ugly face of war, this is evident by some of your foolish remarks such as -

It's probably best you don't see real war footage, you wouldn't be able to sleep if you did...

I can say same about you. I highly doubt that you witnessed enough firefights since WW1 to lecture us on how people behave in war. Just beacuse you saw some videos approved to go public by US army doesn't mean that you know anything about firefights. You're asking for interactive-movie here. ArmA is not CoD.

[rye1 21]

That's why it's good to stick to facts or some kind of research. I really do recommend some killology documentaries; it goes into the psychological elements mentioned here, not only KILLING or DEATH. For example they talk of confusion in battle, how death can affect soldiers (vomiting, feeling nauseous, unwilling to fight, fleeing) and so on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9Ozno7HMGE

Enjoy.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Rye

[celery 8]

What I want is for suppressive fire to play a significant role in arma3's gameplay. The role of suppressive fire in combat appears to be very much underestimated around here, it's an extremely important and effective real world tactic that in my opinion is sorely missing in vanilla arma's game mechanics. In the real world suppression wins firefights, I would like to see this reflected in arma's gameplay.

If the incoming fire is movie style "suppressive" fire that doesn't do anything, there is no real reason to stay down. If the party that originally got "suppressed" manages to kill its assailants in an effective fashion, is it not more an indicator that the first party to fire wasn't very serious about the whole suppressive fire thing, rather than suppressive fire not working in general?

Or is your issue mostly that you yourself currently don't take incoming fire seriously enough?

3 men are pinned down by heavy fire small arms fire and are unable to effectively return fire without getting killed. In desperation they attempt to return fire and one by one are all killed.

And this would be different in Arma how exactly? You said that these men got killed, so why wouldn't it happen in Arma if the incoming fire was accurate, i.e. actually suppressive?

[HKFlash 9]

US Army war stress

[Madeon 6]

Or is your issue mostly that you yourself currently don't take incoming fire seriously enough?

In vanilla arma incoming fire doesn't have a significant effect on my aiming proficiency, it's far too easy to target and kill the source of fire.

And this would be different in Arma how exactly? You said that these men got killed, so why wouldn't it happen in Arma if the incoming fire was accurate, i.e. actually suppressive?

The men likely wouldn't get killed in arma, and that's the entire point, it would be an easy task for the men to return accurate fire at the enemy because they wouldn't be adequately impeded by symptoms of fear.

Ask yourself this question, if you were armed with an assault rifle and hiding behind a rock in the real world and there was a man standing 50 metres from you on the other side of the rock blazing away at you with an assault rifle and rounds were impacting upon the rock, do you think you would have the nerve to calmly peek out and take a shot at the man firing at you without suffering from symptoms of stress?

[batto 17]

In vanilla arma incoming fire doesn't have a significant effect on my aiming proficiency, it's far too easy to target and kill the source of fire

It has and it sucks. And it's not easy ffs. It's easy for suppressing side because they have better tactical position and your hands are shaking.

Ask yourself this question, if you were armed with an assault rifle and hiding behind a rock in the real world and there was a man standing 50 metres from you on the other side of the rock blazing away at you with an assault rifle and rounds were impacting upon the rock, do you think you would have the nerve to calmly peek out and take a shot at the man firing at you without suffering from symptoms of stress?

I would because I'm sick individual.

Just because you would be scared doesn't mean that every ArmA2 player is going to wait for other enemy squads to flank them in cover. You just want to force it on every future ArmA3 player. If you want the game that presents emotions of your avatar with "scary" gfx the CoD is the right choice. In ArmA2 your avatar has no emotions because it's _robot_ controlled by you (the human).

I'll quote EDcase because it seems you skipped his post.

As has been said before: A game cannot visualise emotions such as fear and force them on the player. These have to come from the players themselves.

The idea is to make the player genuinely scared to poke their head around a corner rather than have some visual effect to say that they should be scared.

What A3 needs to provoke these emotions is effective sound effects (including better 3d positioning) of bullet impacts nearby and perhaps some nice dust kicks (which could occasionally hit the screen if close enough)

Edited August 24, 2012 by batto

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

It's probably best you don't see real war footage, you wouldn't be able to sleep if you did...

Hold on, are we discussing immediate effects or PTSDs 6 months later?

This thread is amusing.

[Smurf 12]

Guys, there are some game that have a good supression system in yours opinion? This is a game and you have many limits to mimic those effects...

Let's build upon that instead of tail chasing, wall of text of meaningless discussions about the human mind and tournaments of "Who saw the goriest\brutal war video".

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Anatomy of the human body is not an occult secret, and I bet everyone in the civilised world has seen mass murder in the concentrated camps of World War II, there's no need for me to further indulge in "looking" at mangled corpses.

The way you present the topic gives me an impression that you take pride in death, or suffering. I don't get it.

I agree with previous posters that the character is a vessel: want to be a murdering psycho and try your luck in PVP? How about a rambo? What, do you want to use the grenade launcher Dslyecxi-style and silently rack-up the kills behind enemy lines? Sure, go ahead. Speaking of which, http://ttp2.dslyecxi.com/tactics.html

Tactical Definitions

The following definitions cover some of the more significant aspects of the employment of team-level tactics. These are important to understand for the purposes of the remainder of this page's content.

Suppression

Suppression is the act of using fire and the threat of fire to deter enemy fire or action, as well as 'fix' the enemy in one place. As noted elsewhere, suppression is only effective if the enemy truly believes that they will be shot or killed if they don't take cover from the incoming enemy fire.

Read up.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[dmarkwick 261]

If you want the game that presents emotions of your avatar with "scary" gfx the CoD is the right choice.

The petulant "go play CoD" line has never, once, made anyone sound brilliant on these forums.

[celery 8]

In vanilla arma incoming fire doesn't have a significant effect on my aiming proficiency, it's far too easy to target and kill the source of fire.

Your aim deteriorates with close-impacting shots, and notice how you yourself take the conscious risk of taking out your enemy. That means that they weren't really suppressing you, because suppression, i.e. the urge to not to attempt improving your tactical situation in the belief or knowledge that otherwise you'll get hurt, only works if there's reason to believe just that.

The men likely wouldn't get killed in arma, and that's the entire point, it would be an easy task for the men to return accurate fire at the enemy because they wouldn't be adequately impeded by symptoms of fear.

Why wouldn't the enemy's fire be accurate enough to kill them if it was in the video that you say you've seen?

Ask yourself this question, if you were armed with an assault rifle and hiding behind a rock in the real world and there was a man standing 50 metres from you on the other side of the rock blazing away at you with an assault rifle and rounds were impacting upon the rock, do you think you would have the nerve to calmly peek out and take a shot at the man firing at you without suffering from symptoms of stress?

Is your argument here that if I wasn't immobilized or stressed out, I could just end the firefight by shooting him which is what I shouldn't do? Or is it just a hopeful assumption that I would do nothing at all and let the enemy execute me as long as he keeps those bullets of his flying to keep my hands shaking and vision tunneled?

[dmarkwick 261]

Read up.

"if the enemy truly believes that they will be shot or killed" did you get that bit? :) We cannot do that in a game, did you get that bit? But we can introduce an effective mechanism that deters a player who might ordinarily have lollipopped his position away with a sniper rifle or some other nonsense.

[G4meM0ment 1]

Aww, but where's the "great physical stress" with bullets merely flying around, not hitting the subject? That's an over-reaction by the nervous system, bordering on system shutdown due to extreme pain.

Are we talking wounds again?

These extremes of either side are getting boring. There shouldn't any gimmicks to the collection of systems, which is ArmA - just simulate proper physics and its effects on infantry and we will all be fine -> See ACE 2. I'd rather wait for an eletrode-to-the-brain helmet with VR displays to simulate anything concerning consciousness.

So you want just the physiks simulated, fine so lets delete every shaking of the weapon when the player just ran or these bloody effects on death (I even dont like them :P)

Now what I wanted to say it, why to just have a plain and unreal simulation if it can be more stress (fun) for the player?

In my opinion effects like shaking on suppression and a sfx (toggleable) would be fine.