More realistic/depressing feeling

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I doubt that you understand it, since you seem to think it doesn't anything other than validate my point.

Once you have fire superiority, you no longer need a heavy, automatic weapon to suppress. Fun fact, the U.S. military recommends that riflemen fire one aimed bullet every 1-2 seconds in order to continue suppressing a pinned target. So you are, err, flat-out wrong.

You're saying concepts which are self-explanatory. Explain how an artificial system of schizo hallucinations fits into all of this.

What it can do is make gameplay momentarily more difficult to compensate for the mortal fear the player cannot feel. This the the point I made earlier, which you handily ignored in order to spout loud strawmen about hallucinations and loss of motor control.

Like this?

slvCVuU5efM

This appears to be the example par excellence for everyone suggesting we simulate the emotion of fear. Loss of motor functions and blurry screens were proposed by the hosts of the thread, and everything of importance to the topic, which I showcased via ACE 2 was deemed "not enough suppression".

So what is enough? Define it already. Explain in detail. It better work 100 out of 100 times.

Yeah, or we could return to the real world, where a fire element is most likely a FIRETEAM with a single SAW, suppressing an entire position like a compound while the other fireteam flanks or artillery comes in. But sure, we could also make up bizarre scenarios in order to indulge your viewpoint.

For bizarre you go to the PTSD crowd, not me. The fire element can be any type of unit from a fireteam to a damn platoon, and they may be suppressing two people - how would they know how many are there? So that's thousands of rounds to suppress a threat and flank it successfully, yet people want to incapacitate their adversaries merely by pointing a handgun at them. Circus.

[-Coulum- 35]

yet people want to incapacitate their adversaries merely by pointing a handgun at them. Circus.

Who said that?

Whether a fire team or a platoon Maturin's point still stands. Not all of them will be using machineguns. Rifles can pin men down just as well. Hell sniper rifles are probably in some ways better than machineguns when it comes to pinning people down. I don't quite get how this really matters though. Suppression sway would ideally depend on the caliber of the shot. So an M9 will cause very little and very short sway whereas a 12.7mm will cause substantially more. And please stop saying that we want "schizo hallucinations". Nobody is suggesting that. Just some sway and possibly some blurred edges to created tunnel vision. Even VBS2 has that. But I guess its just an arcadey shooter right?...

Like this?

No like this

Plus possibly this, but much more temporary (blurred/darkened screen edges)

And only for a couple of seconds after the shot, that way continuous fire must be expended in order to suppress someone for an extended period.

Edited August 24, 2012 by -Coulum-

[Madeon 6]

And only for a couple of seconds after the shot, that way continuous fire must be expended in order to suppress someone for an extended period.

Totally agree.

---------- Post added at 01:07 ---------- Previous post was at 00:02 ----------

Why wouldn't the enemy's fire be accurate enough to kill them if it was in the video that you say you've seen?

In the video the pinned men return fire but it is extremely inaccurate, in fact they don't even aim. This is the point, in arma fear isn't simulated adequately when under heavy fire.

Is your argument here that if I wasn't immobilized or stressed out, I could just end the firefight by shooting him which is what I shouldn't do?

No my argument is that in the real world the effects of stress make it harder to aim than is currently being simulated in vanilla arma.

[rye1 21]

Your aim deteriorates with close-impacting shots, and notice how you yourself take the conscious risk of taking out your enemy. That means that they weren't really suppressing you, because suppression, i.e. the urge to not to attempt improving your tactical situation in the belief or knowledge that otherwise you'll get hurt, only works if there's reason to believe just that.

Work on the AI? Or they superhuman? Wait... they're not human. I want to fight terminators in Arma 3.

Anyways, a lot has been said in his thread. In my opinion suppression depends on situation; for instance you can 'suppress' with a pistol, but for a limited time due to reload status and the enemies mental fortitude, people adapt to being or even living under fire, people adapt to constant fire where they learn to live with it. Ranger's in Somalia stood in shorts and T-shirts while mortars hit their FOB, yelling even when one hit 50 yards away and shrapnel hit above them. Lads under fire in Afghanistan, "Yeah another day on the job", stood in cover, calm and composed, waiting for it to end whilst the new-takes were shitting themselves. It's exposure, and whoever gets the most exposure can handle it better OR do they crack? Well the trend offers means for a good time they handle it better.

A pistol can do the job. If I was 10 meters away, we both were hugging a corner, I engaged you, you'd most likely pull into cover in reality, leaving me space to move. Suppression. It's about concentrated fire, target fixation and sensory overload for that shock and awe effect. Now think of a sniper too, bolt-action and can pin down enemies for limited time. And to a point one of you made, the pistol facing someone and they are suppressed, in fear, well yes! Some people will be and some will give up. It would be nice to have a good prisoner script. :)

Lloyd Irvin came against the 'freeze'. It's a common training occurrence in warfare and especially CQB. Guys that freeze up pre-entry and are either pushed in or to the back of the stack. But please try not to relate this to civilian home-invasions because you are unprepared, of mind, of soul, of readiness to react. In a warzone it's not the same, is it? Thanks. BUT on saying that one thing you got right: SURPRISE.

SOUND can have a lot to do with suppression. BIS regular sounds I can move freely under fire. JSRS, very loud, I cannot -- I can to find feet, try to figure out and triangulate this thread before I feel comfortable moving. And the SNAP of rounds, the WHIZZ of fucking close ones makes me get the fuck down!

SIGHT can have an impact. If you see rounds cutting holes through tin fences, leaving light shining through you'd think "OH SHIT!". If .50 HE rounds blasted walls and actually exploded it would keep your head down. What you're looking at creating is sensory overload. Seeing 5 enemies against your M4: SHIT YOURSELF. To look at your team-mates rabbit in the headlight eyes and think "Fuck I bet I look exactly like him, what a nonce".

MISSIONS are what makes us fear. If you come across a fucking hard mission even with your whole team, you will fear it. If you come across a non-respawn mission then you will act differently. The same goes with CO-OP vs PVP.

TIME counts. It depends how long you have been engaging for, people aren't worn down to a crying scrap most of the time, infact they adopt a teamwork approach to stick together and overcome, getting "used" to rounds fired at them; as in acting more appropriately. SPACE counts. I can't get suppressed in a 100m area without the use of heavy weaponry, I can in a 10-20m area tops!

Therefore instant suppression; achieved through making the screen a little blurry, no? BF3 people fight through it. Half the time you wouldn't be able to know you were suppressed without the whizz, rounds hitting near you. Fear is the fuel, not the detractor to Military prowess.

tl;dr: a mixture of effects make suppression and not necessarily just visual. The whole feel, setting and sound. True suppression is within the psychological form.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Rye

[Madeon 6]

Fear is the fuel, not the detractor to Military prowess.

Really? Would continue engaging the enemy in this situation, or would you retreat in fear -

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ea6_1345846606

Even battle hardened veterans fear death, it's natural instinct...

[rye1 21]

I didn't state fear death, I stated fear [of death, of war] is a fuel to being able to operate effectively and use your skills.

Do you concentrate on any statement or just take in what you think you saw?

I would break contact, that's a cluster to walk into and not to any tactical or strategic significance, to lose men over such stupidity to walk at something that just fired a rocket at you is obviously against common sense. I don't get how that had anything to do with... anything.

[Madeon 6]

I would break contact

What if you couldn't, what if you were suppressed. Do you think the guys who narrowly missed death in the video would be able to react normally if pinned, or do you think they would be heavily affected by the effects of stress?

[rye1 21]

From the video they could, and it would be a soft break contact because you couldn't put down rounds. A linear danger area like that is controlled ground, nothing you should step your toes onto. Let's face it. No one reacts normally, what is normal in that situation? They react based on subconscious, based on experience, based on composure and exposure. Based on the way they react as an individual; some have better attributes, knowledge and posture than others. Some can cope better than others, when you talk about stress. Could you be a CEO of a company? Could you be a Trauma Paramedic? Could you be a desk clerk?

I think they'd react at the last level of training and preparation they mastered. If they were shook up (surprised) then I think they'd react less so. I believe an explosive or rocket used to suppress is greater than an MG or rifle in some cases. They have combat tinnitus, their senses are disrupted, they are up against a bigger threat in a pinned down area, they want to get out of there to the safety of the crowd in which they can retreat. Guerrilla warfare + fear. In ACE we have the ringing in our ears, big huge explosive effects, most still break contact because it's the sane thing for the experienced and none experienced.

[Madeon 6]

their senses are disrupted

Thankyou Rye.

[rye1 21]

As in combat tinnitus. Ringing of the ears. You can't hear and therefore can't defend yourself as well.

The topic has already stated that suppression disrupts communication, which is also a disadvantage.

I'm sure it disrupts a whole lot more, more for some than others.

But not for the AI.

[Madeon 6]

I think we are both on the same wavelength Rye, the reason I singled out some of your comments is because I knew your answers would help reiterate my point to some other guys that have been posting here.

BTW your mention of combat tinnitus reminded me of some photographs taken of a marine that survived a near miss in Helmand province. He wasn't physically injured but suffered temporary deafness and was very shaken up by the incident -

[rye1 21]

There has even been cases of hysterical blindness so... scary world. But that's a point too... visually if we saw the destruction of something infront of us it would make us get down. Not going to happen but the visuals is a big part of it. Tracers made us get down a whole lot more often than if you can imagine without using any tracers.

P.S. Playing around today, the civilians seem to be more suppressed than anyone else! They go instant-prone, which is quite annoying at times or randomly run. Quite cool.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Rye

[Enricksolt 12]

I please the implementation of a suppression system, take for example two games like Bad Company 2 and Red Orchestra 2. In BC2 suppression fire is useless, why? Because when you are begin shooted your aim is still good, you screen is clean and you don't recive any kind of "restriction" by popup from your cover and shoot back (like in Arma 2). In RO2 is completly different, when you are begin shoot while covering behind a fence or a windows, your screen become blurry and your aim become inaccurate making it almost impossible to respond, that makes the suppression fire usefull and most of the time it is the only way to advance.

[G4meM0ment 1]

I please the implementation of a suppression system, take for example two games like Bad Company 2 and Red Orchestra 2. In BC2 suppression fire is useless, why? Because when you are begin shooted your aim is still good, you screen is clean and you don't recive any kind of "restriction" by popup from your cover and shoot back (like in Arma 2). In RO2 is completly different, when you are begin shoot while covering behind a fence or a windows, your screen become blurry and your aim become inaccurate making it almost impossible to respond, that makes the suppression fire usefull and most of the time it is the only way to advance.

Yeah I like the suppression in RO2 too, but I think its a bit too "heavy" for some of the ArmA players because they think it's on their own to go in cover and not just having a blurry effect.

But there could be instead of just turning the effect on or off a slider to set how heavy the effect should be for you so that everyone got this effect but if he dont like it he can toggle it down a bit.

[wipman 1]

Hi, IMO a way of increase the realistic feeling would be to just add more alive things (read: NPCs) arround the player, when you're in a base it should look an alive place; with guards, vehicles coming in and out, soldiers and personel walking arround and doing things like chat, check their equipment, seated in vehicles and checking 'em... eating... drinking... kicking stones or throwing trash at the containers. See life arround from the begining to the end of the missions.

Civilian life on the paved roads, streets, shops and houses; people working on the fields or with animals, fishers near the coast... ilegal hunters on the hills or woods. Working radio during the whole mission to call for support, CAS... Arti... Engineers... MED-EVAC... or just extraction or reinforcements; have backup ammo enough on the vehicles during missions or patrols, on the field you're never alone, if you are alone... you're dead, is that simple.

The suppression happens naturaly on you without the need of extra graphical effects if you're inmersed on the game and you care for what you're doing and what you have to do, knowing that a single bullet on you could kill you or screw up the mission and making you to have to be extracted from the battlefield should cause the suppression effect along with the volume of fire on your direction.

The morale is very important on every comflict and the supperiors care (should care) about the morale of their troops, face fearless a combat situation, a patrol or whatever can be the difference between the life or death of a soldier or squad so the depression must be fought as much as the enemy itself because it kills; but there're alot of uggly and unfair things to see on a combat zone that should be reflected to add inmersion feeling to game, not depression feeling. Let's C ya

Edited August 25, 2012 by wipman

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Who said that?

Whether a fire team or a platoon Maturin's point still stands. Not all of them will be using machineguns. Rifles can pin men down just as well. Hell sniper rifles are probably in some ways better than machineguns when it comes to pinning people down. I don't quite get how this really matters though. Suppression sway would ideally depend on the caliber of the shot. So an M9 will cause very little and very short sway whereas a 12.7mm will cause substantially more. And please stop saying that we want "schizo hallucinations". Nobody is suggesting that. Just some sway and possibly some blurred edges to created tunnel vision. Even VBS2 has that. But I guess its just an arcadey shooter right?...

To reiterate my clear point regarding "suppression",

The tactic employs bullets. That's it! Nothing else! For if you dare to disregard this tactic and expose yourself, you will be hit by a projectile traveling at multiple velocities of the speed of sound. You will surely drop dead with no motion blur and/or slow motion.

If you can't instill the fear into the enemy that you're supposedly "suppressing", you're doing a damn crap job, but good luck with whatever visual emotion modeling you people come up.

V8TXBuXCeL0

Over and out.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[-Coulum- 35]

If you can't instill the fear into the enemy that you're supposedly "suppressing", you're doing a damn crap job

But the thing is its a ton harder to instill fear in a player with virtual bullets than with real bullets in real life. This is my point. People don't respond to incoming fire, ingame, nearly like even an experienced soldier would in reality.

but good luck with whatever visual emotion modeling you people come up.

Thats the thing. There is no way to model emotion or fear, or at least not an accurate way. And I don't even think we should try to do it. What I think needs to be done is make it so that the EFFECTS of suppression are experienced in play. not physical effects, but effects on the tide of a fight. Maybe we can't keep the players head down with real fear, but there are other ways to convince them to stay down rather than expose themselves to try and return fire. My suggestion of a little extra weaponsway is one of them. It is not meant to simulate fear. It is just another path to making a firefight more realistic. Is it gamey? yes it is. but is there any other way to go about making suppression have an effect on battle closer to reality? Well I really haven't heard any other suggestions, besides better sound effects. Basically I think at times a bit of abstraction is needed to make the entire experience more realistic.

The tactic employs bullets. That's it! Nothing else! For if you dare to disregard this tactic and expose yourself, you will be hit by a projectile traveling at multiple velocities of the speed of sound. You will surely drop dead with no motion blur and/or slow motion.

Thats not how it works in reality though. people don't keep their heads down in reality because they know they are going to get whacked if they pop up. They keep their heads down because they FEAR that they may get hit. And I don't mean "panicing" fear but rather survival instinct/self preservation fear, that I assume is still present even in veteren fighters. Only fanatics, and people trapped between a rock and a hard place will easily be able to ignore these basic human/animal instincts.

If you still don't understand what I am trying to say, I'll try summing it up here. The emotion experienced in combat cannot be conveyed through a video game. But emotion still has a huge effect on the dynamics of a battle. Therefore, in order for firefights to play out realistically, some abstractions must be made to achieve the same things emotion causes. Concerning suppression, I personally think a bit of extra weaponsway while under fire would achieve this. It is not real fear but it will increase the chances of someone in game reacting to a situation more like how they would react in reality.

And by the way that skittles diplomacy vid really doesn't show supppression at work. If suppression was happening, 95% of each force would not have been destroyed before they got within 100 metres of one another. That vid is a very good example of how suppression doesn't work nearly as effectively as in reality.

I hope I am getting my point across clearly.

[dmarkwick 261]

I hope I am getting my point across clearly.

Not a chance :) I've been trying to get the exact same point across for pages, and the response is always the same: "OMG blurry emotion tearstained overlay nonsense for mental cripples..." but anyway, the thread seems to have reached a regular cycle now.

[skulldragon 1]

If you can't instill the fear into the enemy that you're supposedly "suppressing", you're doing a damn crap job, but good luck with whatever visual emotion modeling you people come up.

The thing is, not everyone can get 100% into a 'Real Life' mindset. Personally, I do my best to get into one, but I'd imagine that, however much I try to ignore it, the knowledge that I'm only playing a game and that dying in it doesn't really matter makes me do things that I wouldn't do in the same situation in real life. For example I and a number of people I know who also play), used to find ourselves, whilst under fire, popping up to try and see where we're being shot at from. I'm sure if we were really in that situation, we'd do nothing of the sort. For me (I don't know about the others), this behaviour stopped when I installed the TPWC suppression mod, which, aside from affecting how AI is suppressed, changes aim-shake slightly and makes your vision go strange (I think it does something with the contrast of the image). So basically, a visual effect made the effect of being suppressed more lifelike.

Now I know that I can in no way speak for everyone, but I think there must be a considerable amount of people in the same situation as me here. For those people who don't need any extra effects to get fully immersed - great, just keep in mind that not everyone is as fortunate as you in that respect.

I guess the proposed effects could be made togglable/slider-based to help please everyone.

wipman - Yeah, if that was put in, not only would the player care more, but the general atmosphere and experience would be better, I think. Problem is, it could use quite a lot of CPU power.

[-Coulum- 35]

Not a chance I've been trying to get the exact same point across for pages, and the response is always the same: "OMG blurry emotion tearstained overlay nonsense for mental cripples..." but anyway, the thread seems to have reached a regular cycle now.

Hehe, I still have faith, but I am young and naive. I guess it can be hard to understand though, especially if you haven't gone through a similar experience. Survival instincts are powerful and you don't really understand that until you feel them take over. Anyway, I think "they" may just come around. The problem is not everyone is on the same page. People think that we are suggesting this stuff to simulate emotion itself and the physical effects of that emotion. And if that were why we were suggesting, I would agree with them. But its not.

SOUND....SIGHT....MISSIONS....etc.

When it comes to trying to get players to feel more emotion I absolutely agree with you. Making it so that they see and hear the danger clearly will help to make them understand that it does in fact exist and they are possibly close to death. These are things that can be improved to improve reactions to fire. But there is a limit. For obvious reasons, know matter how loud the crack or how big the explosion players are going to reach a maximum point of fear simply because there is nothing more attached to those sounds and visuals than a virtual death, which is frustrating but not nearly as bad as the consequences in reality.

Therefore instant suppression; achieved through making the screen a little blurry, no? BF3 people fight through it. Half the time you wouldn't be able to know you were suppressed without the whizz, rounds hitting near you.

True that. Blurry screen or any other type of pp effect doesn't really make an effect on people. Hell in Project reality you would get triple vision under fire but all you had to do was simply use the middle image to aim and you would be fine. It was merely an annoyance.Thats why I suggest something they can't ignore. a bit of extra weaponsway. even if they didn't know they are under fire, they might think "hey I currently have shitty aim, maybe I should duck down behind cover to wait for it to recover rather than standing up and returning accurate fire, as per now."

your aim become inaccurate making it almost impossible to respond, that makes the suppression fire usefull and most of the time it is the only way to advance.

Yes, this. bottom line. in arma suppression isn't as useful as in reality do to lack of emotion. Thus abstractions must be made to bring it up to par with reality. something like the RO2 system is one way of doing this, although I am not a big fan of the blurred screen.

For those people who don't need any extra effects to get fully immersed - great, just keep in mind that not everyone is as fortunate as you in that respect.

Thing is, as this thread demonstrates, I don't think many people realize that they aren't really acting like they would in reality. This may sound ridiculous but ask yourself, if you had a gun to your head while playing arma, that went off when you died ingame, would you play the same way. I really doubt any one could return positive on that one but maybe I am wrong. Hell I doubt many of us would even play. And thats what seperates a good soldier from a civilian.

I know I personally abuse that lack of real danger in arma. It may get me killed more but who cares? From a gameplay persepctive it is worth it - I may die but I take down more than one of the enemy therefore my death is worth it. How often I do this depends on the scenerio/mission but even in those long ones. I see my soldiers life as merely a gambling piece. Obviously in reality my outlook would be very different.

Edited August 25, 2012 by -Coulum-

[maturin 12]

That posted picture brings up a good point. Suppression can be physical as mental. Being showered with bits or rock and even bullet jackets will ruin your operations right quick.

[Wolfstriked 11]

I am coming late to this thread so I do not know if this idea has already been posted so please forgive me.:cool:

I am all for suppression effects but the very blurry screen is not the best way to go IMO.But I feel a little blurriness is excellent as a signal to the player that bullets are hitting very close.I also feel that extra weapon sway,while in theory would be great,in actuality it just feels wrong.

So what is my idea then....if you are under fire and the bullets are hitting close to you then the screen goes slightly blurry.This is a signal to you that you will now be firing while being suppressed(fear of your life). To add this fear effect then some weapon dispersion should be added.Not much so that at close range you will not feel it but at medium to long range you will be spraying in ever increasing circle around where your weapon is pointed.Imagine this scenario....your screen goes blurry and while you know where the enemy is you also know you are now firing in fear so you will have some dispersion added in.This will mean you are just gonna pop up and fire off a few and then down,just to try to suppress back.If suddenly your screen goes clear you know that the bullets are hitting a certain way away from you and are more confident to pop up and aim/shoot,knowing that your weapon is now firing at its standard dispersion.

[-Coulum- 35]

So what is my idea then....if you are under fire and the bullets are hitting close to you then the screen goes slightly blurry.This is a signal to you that you will now be firing while being suppressed(fear of your life). To add this fear effect then some weapon dispersion should be added.Not much so that at close range you will not feel it but at medium to long range you will be spraying in ever increasing circle around where your weapon is pointed.Imagine this scenario....your screen goes blurry and while you know where the enemy is you also know you are now firing in fear so you will have some dispersion added in.This will mean you are just gonna pop up and fire off a few and then down,just to try to suppress back.If suddenly your screen goes clear you know that the bullets are hitting a certain way away from you and are more confident to pop up and aim/shoot,knowing that your weapon is now firing at its standard dispersion.

That would work as well. I personally would be fine with anything as long as it gives me reason to take cover rather than heroically return fire. I believe that "dispersion" is a very unpopular word around here though.

I think that weapon sway can feel natural though. The way arma 2 does it definitely feels unnatural because the weapon literally jumps from one point on the screen to another. But if the weapon were to smoothly sway in a semi predictable manner I don't think it would be unnatural. The reason I would prefer sway other dispersion is because it will clearly signal to you that your aim is shit - thus it may be better to get down than engage. I know you say there would be other effects to remind the player he is suppressed, but these can be ignored/forgotten. Seeing your weapon swaying is a very clear indication that you shouldn't be trying to hit anyone, but rather trying to get out of the line of fire.

But just my opinion, I like your idea.

Edited August 26, 2012 by -Coulum-

[Madeon 6]

bottom line. in arma suppression isn't as useful as in reality do to lack of emotion.

This may sound ridiculous but ask yourself, if you had a gun to your head while playing arma, that went off when you died ingame, would you play the same way.

I know I personally abuse that lack of real danger in arma.

It may get me killed more but who cares? From a gameplay persepctive it is worth it - I may die but I take down more than one of the enemy therefore my death is worth it. How often I do this depends on the scenerio/mission but even in those long ones. I see my soldiers life as merely a gambling piece. Obviously in reality my outlook would be very different.

You summed it up perfectly Coulum.

[Bee8190 10]

^^I think so too

And all I hope for is better suppression / fear effects in A3. Perhaps the Dev's took a note of some of the ideas here.