Ability To Vault Over Walls/Obstacles?

[IAshford 1]

But its not out of the realm of realism. Sure, climbing a human height ledge with 30-50 kilos may be tough, but it's not exactly 'completely and ridiculously unrealistic'. As someone has already stated, you aren't even always wearing heavy armour, so if they were to limit your abilities to what exactly you're wearing, that'd be fair. But if they didn't do that, I don't even think it's a huge issue and Tbh, it sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining about realism. As I already stated, unless they add in things that factor into the realism of combat such as hunger, thirst, potty breaks, breaking bones, losing limbs etc. the game will never really be a true simulator. Which is perfectly okay with me, cause gameplay should always come first, even within the simulator genre.

I get that the game is suppose to be a simulator, but if the feature was to have a heavy impact on combat and how enemies react with one another, then I can see it being an issue. However as it stands I don't see any harm coming from a feature like this, it just adds variety to how you deal with the enviroment.

Edited July 17, 2012 by IAshford

[ArchAngelAlien 1]

There is ways of keeping it realisitic but still presenting you options. Perhaps you need to drop that Javelin before vaulting that 6 foot wall to take out the insurgents that are preventing the other half of your squad to regroup. It's very situational but honestly, the option should still be there. Does it need to break the game? No. It can be done within the limitations of the realistic boundaries of the military simulation.

I can guarantee if this is not included in house, it will be modded in. I prefer in house though, so I hope this does make sense to the developers and they perhaps include it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vklOq6KFQy4

Edited July 17, 2012 by ArchAngelAlien

[HKFlash 9]

Because you can't vault around with 30KGs of gear? BF3's vaulting is like soldier is some circus acrobat that carries feathers, not equipment.

Besides we already have step-over. I know step over doesn't look as cool but at least it's possible when carrying them M107 and Javelin.

Well with an M107 and Javelin plus a backpack I would agree it wouldnt be possible to vault like in BF3.

But with an M4 and no backpack? 30Kgs? Right. I've vaulted objects like in BF3 and I was carrying the G3, a heavier weapon than the M4. Plus you aren't always wearing gear in ARMA you know. You play as civilians and guerrillas which barely use any military equipment like kevlar vests and helmets.

[Timnos 1]

I have combat footage of Marines vaulting a wall whilst under enemy fire and it looks almost exactly like Smookies animations.

[HKFlash 9]

I have combat footage of Marines vaulting a wall whilst under enemy fire and it looks almost exactly like Smookies animations.

There seems to be a myth about how easily can you maneuver whilst wearing military gear. Soldiers do train their physical fitness for some purpose you know.

[terox 316]

The ability to be able to climb over a (I forget whether it was a 6' ot 8') wall unaided while wearing belt gear (30lb) and primary weapon (9lb) was and I believe still is part of the annual combat fitness test of the British Army, and this was after an 8 mile tab and a firemans carry of another soldier of equal weight, who also has his full belt gear and weapon (can't remember distance).

1) Using 1 hand to vault over a small wall while running is not beyond the typical fitness and upper body strength of a soldier. That animation I would say is authentic and realistic

2a) The animation that had the unit climbing over a wall is also doable, but unlikely to be attempted solo when team mates are about and certainly not under fire. It is unlikely the unit would jump off the high wall too, that could potentially cause an ankle or leg injury

2b) The ability to stand on one or 2 buddies backs to look over a wall or to then climb over it using 1 or 2 mates would be imho more normal.

3) The forward slide on your butt, no way would you do that especially on rocky terrain with or without belt gear, too hollywoody & gamey and you would certainly end up medivacced with a bleeding arse.

4) Firing your weapon on its right side an inch above the ground. doubtful, the round normally ejects out of the right side of the weapon and lining up the sites, holding the weapon firmly to reduce recoil would be far more difficult

I didn't see a forward roll in the video, but have seen a video showing that animation somewhere. That's unrealistic, hollywoody, gamey and imho does not belong here.

In general, the kit you wear slows you down a lot and reduces your flexibility, movement is generally slower and more cumbersome and if you are involved in CQB, especially FIBUA it is extremely knackering

What is unrealistic in typical ArmA gameplay is the amount of running that you do in a typical mission, no way would you run about over kilometres in open fields, movement is slow, deliberate and cautious especially if contact is expected.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Terox

[Timnos 1]

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[dmarkwick 261]

Well it's not outside the boundaries of game-realism to allow for climbing over obstacles too high for stepping over (but obviously not too high for believability). If a unit had the possibility of dropping encumbrance then that ability could improve with less encumbrance. In fact 2 units trying to scale the same obstacle at the same time in the same place could have their timings improved to simulate a leg-up followed by a pull. Doesn't need to be animated, just each guy's timing improved.

[ArchAngelAlien 1]

Basically, this is possible within the limits of reality. Weight, stamina and physical ability.

The forward roll could be used by civs, or units not carrying a backpack. It's highly unneeded and in combat I doubt you would risk such a maneuver to only drain your energy and stamina.

I believe what we have established here with the replies is that yes, in battle under the right circumstances and gear we are able to vault over obstacles and walls. This is not just addressed to the US forces in Arma. Think about playing the Taliban. They barely carry much weight at all inless they are packing a RPG or an IED. This applies to all factions and countries, everyone can jump over things, just like in real life. The circumstances of reality within the game just need to be met.

This is a tactical feature that should not be outcasted in Arma 3 and be embraced as a tactic in war, as it already is in real war.

Edited July 18, 2012 by ArchAngelAlien

[kilroy the nerd 14]

BF3 style vaulting would be nice.

No. Well, not the ridiculous animation anyway. However, the ability to jump up onto short platforms is much needed. In ARMA 2, I can go over a fence, but I can't crawl up onto an elevated porch. So we should be able to crawl up anything shorter than a human being, so to speak. If you have light enough combat gear, I imagine you could jump up onto a human-height wall and crawl the rest of the way up.

Of course, it should be made slower/more cumbersome if you have low stamina or are wearing heavier/more gear.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Kilroy the Nerd

[Smurf 12]

No. Well, not the ridiculous animation anyway. However, the ability to jump up onto short platforms is much needed. In ARMA 2, I can go over a fence, but I can't crawl up onto an elevated porch. So we should be able to crawl up anything shorter than a human being, so to speak. If you have light enough combat gear, I imagine you could jump up onto a human-height wall and crawl the rest of the way up.

Of course, it should be made slower/more cumbersome if you have low stamina or are wearing heavier/more gear.

Like this? RnL also have a "climb tall walls" animation (like Smookie's), but I don't think that would be so nice in ARMA.

Also, vaulting low-med walls on the move would be a nice addition.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

However, the ability to jump up onto short platforms is much needed. In ARMA 2, I can go over a fence, but I can't crawl up onto an elevated porch.

I don't think it would be a major problem implementing basic jumping to get on such ledges, especially with updated physics, but considering bunny jumping tendencies in games that do have it, I understand why we don't have it. Maybe if it worked only near such a ledge, and you did get onto it. But not as an all round bunny jumping feature.

[chortles 263]

4) Firing your weapon on its right side an inch above the ground. doubtful, the round normally ejects out of the right side of the weapon and lining up the sites, holding the weapon firmly to reduce recoil would be far more difficult

The urban prone position (for both right and left side) is right out of Magpul Dynamics' training courses (i.e. the Art of the Tactical Carbine), where this position IS taught and demonstrated.

Besides we already have step-over. I know step over doesn't look as cool but at least it's possible when carrying them M107 and Javelin.

:rolleyes:

I'll note that stepover is basically broken -- besides it being a set animation which can be done (sometimes at a bad time due to a missed key press) even when you're NOT by an obstacle, thus interrupting whatever you were trying to do, it's not even guaranteed to work, i.e. due to collision detection being imprecise in ARMA 2... I wouldn't use the stepover as a reason to not have mantling/"proper" vaulting in ARMA 3, it's that bad.

[smookie 11]

Looking forward to improving the state. My first priority is to make sure player is no longer defence-less during stepover (gun aimed/possibility to cancel) and then think about other stuff.

[maddogx 13]

Looking forward to improving the state. My first priority is to make sure player is no longer defence-less during stepover (gun aimed/possibility to cancel) and then think about other stuff.

Sweet! :D

I'm thinking a combination of both would be nice, although gun aiming should probably be very unstable. As for canceling, my preference would be that it cancels if I press a movement key (other than forward) or the crouch or prone key. Basically anything I might press in a "panic" when I find myself under fire.

Those are my suggestions on the subject. :)

[Timnos 1]

My first priority is to make sure player is no longer defence-less during stepover (gun aimed/possibility to cancel)

Great news!

[terox 316]

The urban prone position (for both right and left side) is right out of Magpul Dynamics' training courses (i.e. the Art of the Tactical Carbine), where this position IS taught and demonstrated.:rolleyes:

I wasn't referring to a specific weapon!

I visited Magpuls site to get an insight into what you meant. I have never fired the M4 or variants of, so am not familiar with how that weapon really handles.

My concern, based on having been in the military for over 10 years, was when firing a weapon so close to the floor on its right side, was the potential of a jam caused by the dust and debris thrown up by the ejecting round, that could enter the chamber.

From watching that video, it's obvious that particular training school teaches that position however it certainly looks highly likely that a jamming issue could arise.(Watch the dust thrown up in the video) I'd be surprised if the U.S Military Training school teaches that firing position. Maybe a U.S. serviceman could comment.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Terox

[rye1 21]

Terox if you are a youtube crazy, you can search a little bit more and find it being used more than you expected; including the use in some SWAT agencies and taught in many tactical companies. I have seen limited use of it in any public media depicting it's use in the military. But you run the L85 so concern understood, it's the same with your shoulder transitions, you have to angle the weapon as to not get ejected brass in your face.

You're right about dust, grit, pebbles. It can be a risk factor.

Have a read: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=248431 ... LAPD SWAT used it successfully to take out one of the gunmen in the North Hollywood shoot-out, he was shot in the ankle and bled out.

If you have your basic survivability drill i.e. Run, Down, Crawl or Engage. As soon as you go prone you can adapt it to where you need to shoot and what you need to shoot under.

It was used in Iraq to some degree; it's a time and place technique based on the individual so of course it's uncommon but Travis Haley and Chris Costa teach it with absolute resolve -- and you know their backgrounds.

[ArchAngelAlien 1]

Looking forward to improving the state. My first priority is to make sure player is no longer defence-less during stepover (gun aimed/possibility to cancel) and then think about other stuff.

This was the last thing I expected. Smookie, himself to comment on a thread that I made about something he is very good at. You have seriously surprised me and I am grateful to hear there are improvements coming.

You are a great at what you do and I know will do Arma 3 justice in that department. I really hope alot of your animations make it into Arma 3. Good job and thank you.

[chortles 263]

If you have your basic survivability drill i.e. Run, Down, Crawl or Engage. As soon as you go prone you can adapt it to where you need to shoot and what you need to shoot under.

It was used in Iraq to some degree; it's a time and place technique based on the individual so of course it's uncommon but Travis Haley and Chris Costa teach it with absolute resolve -- and you know their backgrounds.

I should add that for ARMA 3 purposes, since it uses the "stance modifier" key, it's not like you lose the ability to roll (Q/E) or shift (A/D with WSAD-type) sideways either... it's just another possible stance/position for the specific situation of shooting around a cover, just like the supine "last stand" position can facilitate shooting over a cover (it setting off the old fanatics is an out-of-game bonus) instead of infamous blindfire, and I can't think of what else would have been assigned to Ctrl+E and Ctrl+Q from prone, considering that those two already do 'sidestep lean' (instead of bend-at-the-waist lean), while Ctrl+W from crouch does "peek up" (and raise the weapon a bit higher) and I believe Ctrl+S is used for ducking from crouch while keeping the weapon raised.

I would also add, Terox, that for ARMA 3 purposes all firearms seem to have 100% reliability against dust or jams, so that's not for urban prone in ARMA 3! ;) As for "is it authentic"... honestly, that comes down to your opinion of Magpul Dynamics' credibility (Travis Haley and Chris Costa being the two most famous instructors who taught the classes and the position but who have both left for separate companies).