CQB??

[Irishman 1]

Forget about melee attacks for a minute,

The whole point of a pistol is to have a secondary armament that I can use when my primary armament as failed, (be it Jamming, or I forgot to reload or I have no ammo left) or when My primary Weapon is no longer suitable for the situation that im in, for example an assault rifle may be to cumbersome or large to use when in a confined space.

What I want to see in ArmA 3 more than melee attacks is an improved pistol system, that allows me to use my pistol realistically, and to take it out quicker and with more fluid movement, and without me having to stop for what feels like an hour in A2.

I don't want to enter a room and find that i have not reloaded or even that i have expended my ammo in the room at hostiles only to pull out my pistol and get shot and killed while performing the animation.

[x3kj 1247]

I don't want to enter a room and find that i have not reloaded

If you enter a room without having reloaded... you should blame yourself for that =P The animation ain Arma2 takes quite long, agreed (it looks arkward, and you can't move, thats the worst part of it). I'm not so sure how fast a Soldier with a normal loadout can pull his pistol with a rifle in their hand though. It still takes time, in the face of an enemy more then a feeled hour - like now. You still have to drop the rifle (let's assume you have a sling), reach for the holster, remove the lock (you don't want to be shot with your own gun, do you?) , pull it out and point in the right direction. Sounds easy, but with a weapon hanging loose on your front it gets in the way of your pistol and your arm. What i'm trying to say is that it may be faster in real life then atm in Arma2, but i don't think it is "much" faster. Feel free to correct me with special ops insight.

[Irishman 1]

I agree with you that the length of time in arma 2 is probably accurate, but I want to have a fluid animation that doesn't impact on me moving about and taking evasive action etc etc.

you should blame yourself for that =P

we all make mistakes :cool:

[instagoat 133]

If you enter a room without having reloaded... you should blame yourself for that =P The animation ain Arma2 takes quite long, agreed (it looks arkward, and you can't move, thats the worst part of it). I'm not so sure how fast a Soldier with a normal loadout can pull his pistol with a rifle in their hand though. It still takes time, in the face of an enemy more then a feeled hour - like now. You still have to drop the rifle (let's assume you have a sling), reach for the holster, remove the lock (you don't want to be shot with your own gun, do you?) , pull it out and point in the right direction. Sounds easy, but with a weapon hanging loose on your front it gets in the way of your pistol and your arm. What i'm trying to say is that it may be faster in real life then atm in Arma2, but i don't think it is "much" faster. Feel free to correct me with special ops insight.

I think nowadays, infantry that has to deal with urban combat puts a lot of training time into transitions and reaction drills involving secondaries. You can be -very- quick with your handgun if you have the right setup and trained hard. Latter is important. I have read an article regarding police that said that to learn how to instinctively draw their firearm, officers have to draw and re-holster the gun blind for about 1000 times before they can do it quickly and reliably, and without fumbling. It´s all about muscle memory.

In the heat of battle, conditions are less than Ideal, obviously, which is why military units also train using distruptive training environments to put more stress on the individual soldier, so they learn how to react correctly and quickly even under stress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L03RJyHAeH0

Not quick, but gives an idea. Obviously specops who do this 40 hours a day would be faster than your average tactilol dude. What´d be cool would be different speeds for actions depending on unit experience/training.

Better video.

[Irishman 1]

. What´d be cool would be different speeds for actions depending on unit experience/training.

.

Yeah, what we don't want is some sort of Cod/Bf3 "Magic" pulling a weapon out of your torso in 0.0000000001 seconds

Also I'd like to see the AI using Proper tactics with pistols, so far they just use them when their primary is dry and they then procede to somehow shoot the pistol like it's a machine gun, they don't even move when attacking with pistols, they just stand there and spray bullets at you, CQB or in the open.

[chortles 263]

Good points. In reference I was just fending off the 'realism' comments in regards to H2H/melee so you are spot on, agreed.

Analogy: Sure, a COD player may never learn how to "aim high" due to hitscan... but he or she doesn't NEED to for the purposes of COD. Likewise, ARMA has scopes such as the PSO-1 where the built-in rangefinder and distance marks are actually used (and thus ought to be learned), but with adjustable zeroing-capable weapons using a static scope crosshair? You "just" find the range (the most important part of course), set the zero distance to the nearest hundred meters (and preferably move so that the distance to the target IS a multiple of 100 meters), then just aim directly at the target and pull the trigger COD style, oooh ahhh. :j:

This isn't a criticism, this is just to highlight that what's supposedly realistic is irrelevant, what's actually implemented in ARMA 3 is relevant.

Sounds easy, but with a weapon hanging loose on your front it gets in the way of your pistol and your arm. What i'm trying to say is that it may be faster in real life then atm in Arma2, but i don't think it is "much" faster.

Perhaps not MUCH faster in real life than in ARMA 2, but better the real life speed than the ARMA 2 speed if so... I want the fastest speed possible for my ARMA 3 pistol transition time. :D I definitely would like ARMA 3 to support pistol transition while moving, forced stay-in-place animations (such as vaulting) are deadly for the player!

For what it's worth,

's an example of a moving FORWARD transition where the sling design essentially has the rifle fall "away" from the holster and pistol arm and then doing a pistol draw from the hip.

's a stationary draw using a chest rig holster mounted seemingly center of mass, not impeded by the rifle or stock thanks to the positioning of the sling.

Irishman, in fairness to BI, Smookie has already discussed pistol transition time, as demonstrated in the Night Ops showcase (transitioning from the MX 6.5 mm to the PO7 9mm), here:

Have already turned down the transition time absolutely minimum of my acceptance. Current rifle to pistol swap time (full-animation) is 1,10 s (and you are able to fire from around 0,53 s). Therefore the current animation is a compromise between gameplay benefits and visual look (so it isnt just "take the grip and attach rifle to the slot").

Nevertheless if u liked secondary transition option, like for instance in my pvp anim pack, it would also have its limitations to be plausible (so no running with weapon hanging on a sling or very ugly hold of the weapon, should it be left in the off-hand variant animation), plus obviously it consumes a lot of resources and time which can be distributed better.

In the end - I saw a lot in ArmA gameplay over MP and I seriously doubt the majority of complainers would even take advantage of this if it was even faster. I wouldnt :)

(~4 mins of video) is a video focused on the rifle-to-pistol implementation in SMK Animations mod; both the drop sling and "rifle behind the shoulder" animations are shown, while the latter is used in ARMA 3 (unfortunately with the soldier standing still) but the drop sling has not been shown in ARMA 3.

As for the "off-hand variant" animation mentioned by Smookie, although I believe that such doesn't exist in the SMK mod, it was a suggested alternative for ARMA 3 to the "sling rifle over shoulder" animation for the transition, and a real-life version is demonstrated here.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Chortles
Added the bit about off-hand transition

[meade95 0]

I would settle for if your Blufor AI (teammates) could simply enter builidings with me and help in clearing rooms (as is now, they can't even do that). Something along the lines of R6/RVS would be wonderful in terms of CQC and a step forward for ARMA (only in the CQC section). As is now, friendly AI aren't even useful in the slightest when helping you clear a room / structrue.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Forget about melee attacks for a minute,

The whole point of a pistol is to have a secondary armament that I can use when my primary armament as failed, (be it Jamming, or I forgot to reload or I have no ammo left) or when My primary Weapon is no longer suitable for the situation that im in, for example an assault rifle may be to cumbersome or large to use when in a confined space.

What I want to see in ArmA 3 more than melee attacks is an improved pistol system, that allows me to use my pistol realistically, and to take it out quicker and with more fluid movement, and without me having to stop for what feels like an hour in A2.

+1

The pistol mechanics and animation in ArmA II is so abhorrent, that I would almost never switch to my secondary, even if I was engaging indoors and had a bolt-action rifle. Simply put, handguns are unusable - fixing gunplay should be utmost priority for CQB.

[chortles 263]

Iroquois Pliskin, what specifically was it that you didn't like about them in ARMA 2? In my case, it was all about the transition, which was both stationary (keeping your character stuck in place) and so slow that you were best off switching to a pistol OUTSIDE the door that you would be going through... I ended up having to deal with this in one of the OA campaign missions, you see, and somehow my character STILL got wounded. :rolleyes:

For what it's worth, the ARMA 3 GameStar.DE interview series' introductory video (1/7) has the player briefly using a PO7 (seemingly a renamed Glock) at the shooting range with first-person rifle-to-pistol transition and first/third-person pistol-to-rifle transition, and the official Night Ops showcase (the one Jay Crowe narrated) has the PO7 being used at night both suppressed and unsuppressed after a third-person rifle-to-pistol transition. While the question of "can you move while transitioning the same way that you can reload on the move?" is unanswered, Smookie has discussed the transition time.

[smookie 11]

Movement with pistols has been greatly upgraded and is just as smooth as (or even slightly more than) with rifle. Transition on the move is technically possible (to some limited extent - like only during walk; also will consume huge ammount of animational resources) and its implementation will be considered.

[chortles 263]

Movement with pistols has been greatly upgraded and is just as smooth as (or even slightly more than) with rifle. Transition on the move is technically possible (to some limited extent - like only during walk; also will consume huge ammount of animational resources) and its implementation will be considered.

My estimation of your work and of ARMA 3's potential grows with this post!

I would like to ask, do you mean that moving transition is not yet in but is up for consideration? If so, I would like to ask, is it the "consum(ing) huge ammount of animational resources" or some other technical limitation that is holding transition on the move back, i.e. why "only during walk" but not during tactical pace? I'd prefer to be able to transition in/with tactical pace, but I'm grateful that you're considering any moving transition at all since such a technique IS authentic and realistic (two separate things, readers), and I look forward to seeing what moving transition IS implemented! Thank you, Smookie.

Also, when you say "only during walk", are you saying that the transition animation merely temporarily slows the character's movement to walk for the duration of the animation (so that if you're moving at tactical pace and select the pistol that the character automatically slows to walk speed while the animation plays out and then automatically resumes tactical pace afterward), or that you have to manually slow to walk speed just to select the pistol?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Iroquois Pliskin, what specifically was it that you didn't like about them in ARMA 2? In my case, it was all about the transition, which was both stationary and so slow

If I was in cover/behind a corner, transition is something I couldn't care less about, it's only an aesthetic issue, but oh my God - the pendulum-like swaying when walking is akin to wielding a .50 sniper rifle in real life probably. Handguns were made to be compact, mobile and versatile, and they were neither in ArmA II.

[chortles 263]

Whereas if I'm behind cover or a corner, I'd simply be reloading the long gun... the pistol transition is for when you "go dry" while out in the open or otherwise on the move. ;) The excessive pistol sway I think it was from ARMA 2 just giving short shrift (or no priority) to CQB at all* so you basically HAD to be stationary to fire, as I thought that sway was excessive in ARMA 2 for long guns as well.

* Which to some extent invalidated the point of having pistols and/or SMGs in the gameplay -- I didn't say milsim, I said gameplay -- at all, so I'm glad that Smookie seems to be taking steps to correct this dilemma.

[^Th0mas^ 10]

Some of you just expect to much from CQB. Most indoor FPS shooters these days have bad AI inside buildings. Do you really expect this game to have good AI inside, outside, in water, diving and in air? Come on.. Most developers cant even make one of these right.

[chortles 263]

Thomas, I think you're mistaking us for being primarily concerned with indoors AI... plus there's reason to discuss this seeing as the emphasis in the showcases thusfar has been on the user controls.

[meade95 0]

What about the ability for AI teammates to enter buildings with you and help you in clearing rooms? Will A3 have this capability? Your AI teammates staying close and going room to room with you? Somewhat like RVS/R6...

[chortles 263]

This unfortunately I would roll into "questions about AI improvements" and not just CQB questions... but in ARMA 2 I was able to send my "Neptune's Spear" (bin Laden raid) mission without complication, albeit it wasn't much room clearing since the opposition was mainly outdoors except for the target himself, and the upstairs was basically a one-room floor.

Games with a "room clearing mechanic" beyond COD's "press X to breach" (Ghost Recon: Future Soldier has "move into position to breach" instead) tend to have a menu/command system that's specifically tailored to room clearing by defining AI partner actions -- in for example Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 it's "order team to move to door," then choosing between "open and clear" or one of two other entry options ("breach and clear" or "frag and clear" if the AI is set to Assault, "flash and clear" or "smoke and clear" if the AI is set to Infiltrate)... I say this for the benefit of your readers. ;)

(MOH: Warfighter single-player demonstrates a hybrid of the COD and R6 approaches: "press X to position for a breach", but then you choose between entry methods; the E3 preview used 'don't throw anything into the room before entry' and a breaching shotgun/kicking the door; the choices were made sequentially.)

Therefore, the question with ARMA 3 "room clearing" AI if it's performed through a similar command system then becomes a matter of "will the game/command system/AI recognize when you want your squad to stack up as opposed to moving into proximity of the door?" Also, what happens if it's an all-player squad (no AI) trying to stack up, how is room entry handled then when your players are not guaranteed to have "entry tools"? Heck, what if the door is locked, will you be able to just shoot the lock open? These would need to be answered before I can say how "room clearing" by AI would work, whereas in ARMA 2 you can at least aim at an open room, select the whole squad and say "move there" with a left click or Enter... would "more of that" be acceptable to you so long as they tend to not get lost or use VBS2 2.0-like "micro AI"?

Considering the openness of the ARMA "worlds" and specific-ness of room entry (as opposed to CQB in general), I'm not so sure that there's much of anything for BI to offer on the specifics of AI going "room to room". :(

[luizsilveira 5]

Some of you just expect to much from CQB. Most indoor FPS shooters these days have bad AI inside buildings. Do you really expect this game to have good AI inside, outside, in water, diving and in air? Come on.. Most developers cant even make one of these right.

There is a huge difference between "good AI" and "barely acceptable". I'd be fine with the AI being acceptable throughout, it doesn't have to be mind bogging. But not being able to land or take off without crashing or not even being able to turn a corner in a car? This not acceptable level. It has nothing to do with being good. I don't expect the AI to do a PIT manoeuvre, or to flat out to push through an ambush when feasible, or to have advance compound clearing tactics - though it would all and much more be nice. But I'd like to expect the AI will be able to turn corners while driving, take off and land with a helo, take cover during a firefight, and react to bullets zooming right next to its head. Only the very basics, you know, which are not properly there yet.

Edit: post sounds off-topic but I didn't complete my thought. Also for CQB there is the "barely acceptable" which is not necessarily "very good". I agree expecting the AI to have breaching and room clearing patterns is way too much, even though they would both be amazing. But I'll be quite disappointed if the AI can't lean through corners and use windows, for example, as I think at this stage this within the very basics. (And that's why I'm setting myself for a disappointment with Arma 3, I hope devs prove me wrong).

Edited August 14, 2012 by luizsilveira

[chortles 263]

Again, I'm only really concerned with PLAYER CQB and I think so is much of the thread, but to answer re: AI in CQB:

"Breaching and room clearing" patterns are a bit much, especially when you're not necessarily playing as a pre-defined "stack" unlike R6V2, and when the ARMA "world" is so open that (i.e. if entering a building instead of clearing a room from inside a building) you may very well need your AI squad to be concentrating on their wider surroundings from their positions near the door instead of focusing on the door and stacking up... if your AI isn't able to "interpret" your intent correctly you may have a problem, unless you do something like "point at the door to stack up, point at the floor in front of the door so that they move to the door but not stack up" so that the delineation between your possible intents is clear.

The VBS2 2.0 "micro AI" video shows leaning around corners but not use of windows; apparently however said leaning around corners/micro-AI is scripted in implementation (if not just for the video), so I have no idea how applicable that is for ARMA 3 and future games' AI.

[rye1 21]

SWAT 4 had a good system for that though. Stack -> Options you can chose i.e. breach and clear. In Arma you could have nice simple ones -> Stack and buttonhook. But still, no idea about AI. Just ideas.

@Iroquois. True, if collisions were in A3 you could see the difference... for instance if the handgun has same "power" as a long pistol (9mm), sometimes it is smart to make a transfer if there is no space for the "long pistol" (HK MP5 etc) in CQB and you would clip less, other than that yes pretty useless and mainly aesthetics unless you run out of ammunition, jam, etc (all the same, transition to primary due to INSERT LIST)... As you said, "fixing gunplay should be utmost priority". I think the patch that helped the netcode did a lot for CQB a while back, it meant you used less rounds to engage enemy, didn't randomly die from a round 4 seconds ago, etc, etc, and people enjoyed fighting AI more; they could have at least a semi-fair fight. Those camping prone cheating bastards. :p

@Chortles. "Here's a stationary draw using a chest rig holster mounted seemingly center of mass, not impeded by the rifle or stock thanks to the positioning of the sling." You said that a while back, I don't think A3 will allow for "gear placement" but if it did then a cool feature (a good idea for ACE 3 too) would be to allow for pilot (high chest) holsters and so on, for faster transitions, better in confined spaces (vehicles, cqb). Gear is KIND OF linked to combat effectiveness. Backpacks improved Arma a hell of a lot for example -- you can carry your spares and back-ups, now a mounting system for different optics is another huge improvement, plus fatigue etc and the improvements you hardly are aware of until it happens.

In terms of AI and room clearing methods (lol'ed at patterns), it's too much but field ops methods would be great in the Arma series obviously like bounding, overwatch, break contact, so on -- not for CQB (Needs too much work).

Anyways back to PLAYER CQB.

The low-ready (2xcntrl) is a problem. Just like pistol transitioning it is static. If you could go low-ready, lean and come up to high-ready without coming out of the lean then that would be ++ for Arma 3. Instead in Arma 2 you come out the lean, pause, come up to high ready then you have to click the lean button again to go into it. TOO SLOW. DEAD.

Then again most animations have that tiny lag/pause - crouch to stood up for an example.

[Madeon 6]

CQB DLC for Arma would be brilliant, I reckon even the DayZ fanbase would be interested in tactically storming into zombie infested rooms. It's like this - carrier command won't sell anywhere near as good as Arma2/Arma3, no disrespect to the guys that worked hard on CC, but DayZ and Arma3 (with all the new mouth-watering features) has generated a huge amount of interest in the arma games and they are only going to get more and more popular after Arma3 is released.

What I'm saying is that Arma and DayZ have a very bright future therefore it would be wise for Bohemia to focus specifically on these games, they have an enormous fanbase so, in my humble opinion, it would be wiser to spend development time on DLC's for these games rather than developing titles like CC.

It may well turn out that I have got it totally wrong and CC will be a roaring success, but I really doubt it, I reckon DLC's for arma and DayZ would be a better option for future projects.

[rye1 21]

What would that include? A CQB DLC.

[Madeon 6]

What would that include? A CQB DLC.

I like a lot of the CQB suggestions that you have made in your post history, stuff like that would be excellent.

[chortles 263]

Rye, the wide majority (basically all but the first sentence) of the post you responded to was off-topic, so let's return to what you had to say:

@Chortles. "Here's a stationary draw using a chest rig holster mounted seemingly center of mass, not impeded by the rifle or stock thanks to the positioning of the sling." You said that a while back, I don't think A3 will allow for "gear placement" but if it did then a cool feature (a good idea for ACE 3 too) would be to allow for pilot (high chest) holsters and so on, for faster transitions, better in confined spaces (vehicles, cqb). Gear is KIND OF linked to combat effectiveness. Backpacks improved Arma a hell of a lot for example -- you can carry your spares and back-ups, now a mounting system for different optics is another huge improvement, plus fatigue etc and the improvements you hardly are aware of until it happens.

Re: gear "placement" it's an interesting idea but last we saw, the rifle is basically just slung over the shoulder by invisible sling and then the pistol drawn from a holster (thigh or hip I can't tell where the animation is, even if the model has a thigh holster)... based on what Smookie said, I'd like to give this transition animation a chance in the community alpha to see if it's fast and fluid enough (i.e. transition on the move).

ARMA 3 videos seem to show smoother-looking animations -- I dunno if they lack the "tiny lag/pause" you described.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Cross fingers that BIS don't make the mistake of implementing animations/movements that are too fast and unbelievable. Please no weapon clipping through walls, disappearing building corners, sudden death via misplaced objects (invisible death-trap/gap) and similar things. Quick-"Drop" for weapon/stuff in players/AI hand would be nice - OFP/CWA has this feature....