X-Ray Vision AI

[anthropoid 1]

Several times now I have tested AI ability to see in almost pitch black, moonless and slightly overcast nights.

Despite the fact that when I take over any of the teammates who are not wearing night vision, I can't see jack shit. AI enemies who are NOT wearing NVGs go out on patrols, engage my troops, wound and kill them.

For a game that is supposdly so sussed up on its 'realism' this to me is absolutely ridiculous. As far as I can tell NVGs are effectively useless because the AI can basically see in the dark even without them. My troops are just as guilty of it as the enemy AI.

There must be a mod that fixes this; wait, no . . . there probably isn't because the code behind "sighting" enemies is probably inaccessible, and part of the reason why a seemingly impossible glimpses of the enemy just around the flank of a wooded hills side or beyond the crest of a wooded hillside seem so common.

[metalcraze 290]

Overexaggerating much?

[Nicholas 5]

How are you testing this? I have no problems. You must also remember that the AI can hear you.

[anthropoid 1]

Most recently my team of four all wearing NV goggles vs. a team of 7 Chedaki in the Lost scenario. We snuck up on them and engaged them from a wooded uphill position all in prone posture taking out 3 immediately. Instead of hunkering down to figure out what was going on, some of them flanked ourposition and managed to wound 2 and kill one before we killed all of them. Not a NVG in ANY of their gear, and like I said, this is so dark that when I take off my NVG I literally cannot see a soldier or ammo crate right in front of my face, even out in the open where the little bit of starlight lights things up. This was the third time I have had a costly nighttime engagement like this with this mission. Similar experiences with AA Team mission, and Freedom Fighters for that matter. In sum, I have observed that dead AI with no NVGs nonetheless put up one helluva nighttime fight prior to being killed.

If the AI was as completely blind as I am when I take off my NVG, there is no way it would charge to flank based on a muzzle burst and hope to get a lucky shot. When it is pitch dark, that is a lot of guesswork. The only thing I can guess is that, it is not 'pitch dark' to the AI.

Unless the AI in the video are scripted to be 'careless' or some other similar setting, it does suggest that perhaps it is possible to turn down AI night time sensitivity. My guess though is scripted.

It would seem i am not alone in finding AI spotting at night to be excessive. A quote from Robalo's ASR_AI mod:

- AI spotting distance automatically reduced at night (and restored at day). Default is half distance at night, can be changed

in userconfig.

Which I actually have installed if I recall correctly.

But if you have ever been out in the woods on a truly dark night, "half" spotting distance is not even close to how obscure the world sometimes is. When you literally cannot see your hand in front of your face and can only get a slight glimps of some light where some stars peek through a gap in the clouds . . . If it is possible to code it: AI spotting and aiming in the dark (without night vision equipment or thermal equipment) should range from virtually zero to perhaps 45% of daytime at most: Truly dark night spotting/aiming ability ~1 to 2% of normal; fully moon, clear skies and bright stars ~45 to 50%

Edited June 18, 2012 by Anthropoid

[metalcraze 290]

My guess though is scripted.

Scripted AI in ArmA :cry:

Edited June 18, 2012 by metalcraze

[domokun 515]

If the AI was as completely blind as I am when I take off my NVG, there is no way it would charge to flank based on a muzzle burst and hope to get a lucky shot. When it is pitch dark, that is a lot of guesswork. The only thing I can guess is that, it is not 'pitch dark' to the AI.

Nail on head. When using NVGs your eyes adjust to the brightness of the NVGs. When you remove NVGs, your eyes which had adjsuted to the brightness of the NVGs are "blinded" by the lack of light. In reality your eyes take several moments to adjust to higher/lower levels of light. A2 goes someway to simulating this. While far from perfect, it's way more than any other game.

I totally agree though with your statement about moonless nights being VERY dark.

Fact is that most people live in light-polluted areas and therefore have no idea about real darkness.

[maturin 12]

No way.

On an actual "moonless, pitch dark" night, the AI can see NOTHING. Setting the mission time to 0100 and calling it good is sloppy testing. Their range of vision literally drops down to several meters, much LESS than their range of hearing. Furthermore, if you shine a flashlight in their eyes at 20m, they will see you, yet be unable to engage because they can't tell whether you are friend or foe. If you fire a shot (any shot) they will instantly return fire.

The actual problem: Once they see a muzzle flash, they have perfect information on the location of that muzzle blast for an extended period of time, and can fire on it with normal accuracy. They can't suddenly see in the dark, but staying at the position becomes death, and their ability to see running figures gets slightly better than human eyes.

Make sure your game is patched, because there was a stupid glitch where certain units (IIRC including Chedaki) could see in the dark as if they had NVGs.

You should start testing in a more controlled environment, if you are going to make claims about X-ray vision. You don't know whether there was someone with NVGs on the next hill feeding them information.

Finally, this post refers to actual pitch darkness, which is only an hour or so long on each map, when there is no moon. On lighter nights, the AI is also quite blind, but get excessively good vision once combat starts. Of course, this is the same state of affairs as during the day.

Edited June 18, 2012 by maturin

[anthropoid 1]

ADDIT: and yes, I was aware about the adjustment time for switching off NVGs and back to natural vision. I always allow several minutes to account for that when I check ambient light levels.

The actual problem: Once they see a muzzle flash, they have perfect information on the location of that muzzle blast for an extended period of time, and can fire on it with normal accuracy. They can't suddenly see in the dark, but staying at the position becomes death, and their ability to see running figures gets slightly better than human eyes.

That would account for the issues I've observed. Problem is, it is virtually impossible to tell your AI squad mates to fire briefly, then scramble/roll to another location . . . Sure the human can do that, but the AI seems to like to unload on a position.

I suppose if you did: (assuming they have reported targets are acquired) All - Go Prone / All - Stay Crouched / All - Fire at Will / All - Take Cover . . . but I have enough trouble controlling myself much less keeping myself from getting shot AND handholding my team.

I dunno, I just find that a lot of this game engine is apparently: (1) better tuned for PVP, and in part as a consequence; (2) Enemy AI are superior in the behavioral scripts they exhibit (except when it comes to vehicles! Catch some poor schmucks without an AT weapon in the somewhat open and you can literally mow 'em down in an APC without ever having to fire a shot!)

After probably 8 restarts with my night assault on Olsha with a four man NVG equpped squad: Finally killed an enemy squad of 7 killed (Officer; Machinegunner; AK-74; 3 Riflemen; AT soldier). Actually, I killed them cause I went back and got my BMP and 'lured' them out into the open by approaching Olsha from the southeast at the radio tower. I stupidly told two of my crew to get out, hoping to ambush the enemy, but by then the enemy squad was already out of Olsha, up the hill and causing mayhem on top of the hill. My machinegunner got killed, but I finally took out the whole enemy crew. As I say, I restarted trying to take out this crew at least 8 times.

I observed their behavior, and unlike a lot of settlements in the game, they seemed to be assigned to patrol right in the midst of Olsha. Mostly they went back and forth east-west in the opening just to the north of Olsha but with some variations on that movement pattern.

Each time I engaged them I had my squad hiding up on the hills (~200m away), me with a NV M110 laying prone. When an opportune shot came, I'd take out one or two. In one case I took out like 3 or 4 of them. But either I forgot to roll, or it didn't matter. They capped me. In some cases they very quickly capped my squad mates once they opened fire.

Anyway, EIGHT retries for a four man NVG equipped crew (M240; G636; M16/MAAW; me with NV M110) hiding in the treeline at an elevated position at night (it was initially quite overcast but it did get a bit more light as I progressed to the point where I kept trying and failing to ambush them). The final victory = use of an APC.

How many Night Vision devices in the loot from the squad that repeatedly capped me? = ZERO.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have no illusion that I am great at this game. I'm pretty damn crappy in fact. But I play on Recruit setting (albeit with ASR_AI) and I AM a pretty accomplished gamer at some other shooter type games . . . I have a lot to learn with ArmA and partly my lack of success can be attributed to that.

Nonetheless, it just seems cockamammie that a squad of 7 guys would be so effective given those circumstances.

Now that I know about how the muzzle flash thing works, I'll see if I can use that to my advantage.

I am pretty sure I have the latest of all patches as I only bought the game off Gamersgate a couple weeks ago.

ADDIT: it seems to me that the game could use a few more squad commands. I don't know the term they use for brief fire then ducking for cover, but a command for AI to do that would be golden.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Anthropoid

[NoRailgunner 0]

What happen if you don't make a noise or only move very slowly? If you use addons make sure they don't screw the mission by too high or low default/custom settings.

[maturin 12]

Eight tries is a lot, but just because you had the advantage of NVGs doesn't change the fact that your were attacking a superior force in a rural/suburban setting. Why weren't you firing from hard cover and doing all the things you would do in daylight? Even if the enemy had human eyes, it would be irresponsible to rely on darkness as a decisive tactical aid, because their response will always be unpredictable.

Rather than finding a good position a just hammering away at the enemy (although a sudden burst of fire on the entire enemy group could have been effective), I have found that friendly AI in a forest work best when given a pre-set field of fire, aware of the presence of enemies. Then you want to alarm your opponents, not so they see you, but so they assault toward your position. Then they expose themselves and their AI is at its weakest, and you can gun them down. Exact same tactic as daylight, only your NVGs let you always spot them first and engage from shorter distances.

And remember that enemy AI has no advantage over your AI. By default they are in fact worse, although sometimes an AI commander can issue commands faster. But nothing they have is compensation for human intelligence.

'Brief fire then ducking for cover' could be (awkwardly) approximated as Hold Fire, Target Enemy (wait for their report on a clear shot, Fire (in the 3 menu), Find Cover. They may want to keep firing, but generally should crawl somewhere nearby.

[anthropoid 1]

Rather than finding a good position a just hammering away at the enemy (although a sudden burst of fire on the entire enemy group could have been effective), I have found that friendly AI in a forest work best when given a pre-set field of fire, aware of the presence of enemies. Then you want to alarm your opponents, not so they see you, but so they assault toward your position. Then they expose themselves and their AI is at its weakest, and you can gun them down.

Most games don't have opponent AI who are sufficiently sophisticated for this kind of tactic to work; but I was already suspecting that you can pull some fairly sophisticated bait and lure tactics in this game. I will try what you are suggesting *mwahwhah*

Couple questions though:

When you say "fire from hard cover:" you mean like from behind a corner or behind a stone wall or something like that?

When you say "pre-set field of fire" I take it you mean: use one or more soldiers to scout the enemy locations so that they are all visible to the team/squad? Or do you mean something more specific that has to do with commands. Related to this and your comment about using one sudden burst of fire: I have tried to assign specific targets based on which ones seem best for each friendly AI, but by the time I get all four of them assigned, flip back to the main screen, get a bead on one myself, adn get ready to unleash one big surprise attack, the damn AI has moved!

I don't know if it is the Lost mission scripts, or just the AI in general, but I find the enemy AI do a lot of fidgeting and moving around . . . ah well, sauce for the goose I guess . . . really makes it hard for a sniper though, when they NEVER seem to just settle down and loiter, take a whiz, smoke a cigarette, chit-chat and exchange pics of their AI wives and such . . .

And remember that enemy AI has no advantage over your AI. By default they are in fact worse, although sometimes an AI commander can issue commands faster. But nothing they have is compensation for human intelligence.

Well, you are about the third person I've had tell me this now, all of whom seemed to have been playing the game for a long time, so I guess I'll stop whining and just learn how to play the game properly ;)

This has got to be one of the hardest games there is. Mostly I've played massive, complex turn-based strategy games where you control an entire theatre or battlefield (War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition; The Operational Art of War). Those games can be quite challenging because of the sheer complexity and quanity of information one must integrate. But obviously reaction time and rapid information processing are not a part of it at all. Indeed, in many shooter games, there are a lot of 'hand-rails' and the player tends to be fairly teflon coated. I used to think Fallout 3 was fairly challenging, but this game makes that look like a game of checkers.

And lastly

alarm your opponents, not so they see you, but so they assault toward your position. Then they expose themselves and their AI is at its weakest, and you can gun them down.

I'm trying to imagine how to 'alarm' them without giving away my position . . . at night any gun shot will have a muzzle flash, though I suppose if it is behind a bush and pointed into the ground it won't be as noticeable. Obviously in real life you could just pick up a tin can or something and toss it, or turn your head and cup your hands toward the valley to your left and make a yelping noise/blow a whistle . . . but how do you go about alarming the AI without giving away your position in ArmAverse?

I'm also assuming that it is a good idea to have your squad positioned in a slightly different position to yourself, so that when the enemy takes notice of your presence and moves toward it, they are flanked by the squad that fires on them?

[maturin 12]

When you say "fire from hard cover:" you mean like from behind a corner or behind a stone wall or something like that?

Yeah. If you do that, your survival depends on your own caution and patience as much as anything, because it takes human cunning to ferret you out of a good spot. Just watch your flanks.

When you say "pre-set field of fire" I take it you mean:

I mean, tell them to Hold Fire and go Prone, and tell them to Stop, in Danger mode. Now you have a base of fire worth it's salt. Don't try to micromanage their positions, or you'll go insane (though it can be worth it for a machinegunner or something). If you tell them to Find Cover, a good portion will adhere to some piece of vegetation or cover that will limit the angles from which the enemy can shoot them. If you know where the enemy is likely to come from, hold alt and learn how to use Watch There commands.

use one or more soldiers to scout the enemy locations so that they are all visible to the team/squad?

That can help, but it's not entirely necessary at shorter ranges and if you have NGVs.

Related to this and your comment about using one sudden burst of fire: I have tried to assign specific targets based on which ones seem best for each friendly AI, but by the time I get all four of them assigned, flip back to the main screen, get a bead on one myself, adn get ready to unleash one big surprise attack, the damn AI has moved!

You don't have to use the map screen to assign targets. Just use the Target menu and make sure you get the team leader and machinegunner. Other than that, I usually trust my guys to pick their own targets, and simply tell them to Open Fire when the time is right. You're the best shot in the group; it's your job to get the guys they miss.

I don't know if it is the Lost mission scripts, or just the AI in general, but I find the enemy AI do a lot of fidgeting and moving around . . . ah well, sauce for the goose I guess . . . really makes it hard for a sniper though, when they NEVER seem to just settle down and loiter, take a whiz, smoke a cigarette, chit-chat and exchange pics of their AI wives and such . . .

Big missions often introduce different variables like scripts. The enemy AI fidget because the team leader is moving a lot. It makes it hard for a sniper, but also hamstrings their ability to pick cover and stay in it. It's a win for you, overall. Of course, when they are out of combat mode, they will stand stock-still in freezing rain for three hours.

This has got to be one of the hardest games there is. Mostly I've played massive, complex turn-based strategy games where you control an entire theatre or battlefield (War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition; The Operational Art of War).

Those games are also precise, and can be mastered as a science. ArmA's war is messy, frustrating, surprising and utterly unpredictable.

I'm trying to imagine how to 'alarm' them without giving away my position . . . at night any gun shot will have a muzzle flash, though I suppose if it is behind a bush and pointed into the ground it won't be as noticeable. Obviously in real life you could just pick up a tin can or something and toss it, or turn your head and cup your hands toward the valley to your left and make a yelping noise/blow a whistle . . . but how do you go about alarming the AI without giving away your position in ArmAverse?

You solved the problem in your last sentence.

But I'll tell you about the AI anyways. Their hearing and sight are completely separate. They hear your gun and then scan with their eyes (assuming you didn't open fire in their FOV). So if they aren't looking your way, you essentially get one free shot. Why not make it a kill shot? They will make a guess as to your position based on the sound, but it will be a very bad one. If they lack NVGs, and you are 100m or so away, you can just crawl out of sight, and hopefully they will come to investigate. But be advised, day or night, their vision now goes from grandma-with-cataracts to eagle-sight.

If you are completely behind a bush, house or ridge, this also means that they won't acquire you as a target, only vaguely identify your area as a threat. You could empty magazines at the sky if you wanted. Paradoxically, their hearing gets less accurate at shorter ranges, and their lack the ability to improve their position estimates based on hearing alone (there're bug tickets about it on devheaven).

[metalcraze 290]

Wait you are firing M110 at AI from a mere 200m which is like one giant "shoot me!" and then complain they easily lock on to you?

I don't understand why they should not see your giant muzzleflash and then suppress that position which is very close? When I played PvP my team had NVGs and enemy team did not. I was tasked with running around creating an impression that the enemy team is being attacked from forest on the hill. And guess what - at dark night where I could see nothing but silhouettes without NVGs I got killed by enemies simply spotting my muzzleflash.

Now the second round. I was NVG-less russkie. I spotted an enemy on the roof skylining himself against the night sky - and took a shot. That's without him even firing at me once.

But then again my AK muzzleflash quickly gave away my position to a NVG equipped enemy

And here we are talking about 4 people unloading their weapons like mad with one being a loud and flashy sniper rifle

So if humans are good at this, why AI can't be?

Edited June 18, 2012 by metalcraze

[maturin 12]

AI are better at pinpointing muzzle flashes than humans, who get confused by momentary dots of light in a sea of darkness. It's not terribly unfair, but it's true. It's only pitch-black darkness where the different really counts, or in shadowed woodland areas where humans are blind but the AI are not (note that the AI are relatively blind on moonlight fields where humans can see quite well).

What is unfair is the AI's perfect memory of the location of a muzzle flash. A human shooter will begin losing the exact position in seconds, while the AI can expand entire belts of ammunition on that precise point.

But these are cases of different perception because of complex coding and limitations, in a system of tradeoffs, rather than 'cheating' AI. A problem of balance and tweaks.

[-Coulum- 35]

AI are better at pinpointing muzzle flashes than humans, who get confused by momentary dots of light in a sea of darkness. It's not terribly unfair, but it's true. It's only pitch-black darkness where the different really counts, or in shadowed woodland areas where humans are blind but the AI are not (note that the AI are relatively blind on moonlight fields where humans can see quite well).

What is unfair is the AI's perfect memory of the location of a muzzle flash. A human shooter will begin losing the exact position in seconds, while the AI can expand entire belts of ammunition on that precise point.

Yeah I agree with this. Although it is possible for a human player to get the general location of an enemy using muzzle flashes it is very hard for them to actually pinpoint their location. I know for me it takes 3 or 4 muzle flashes over 3 or 4 seconds before I can start making my rounds start landing anywhere near an enemy in the pitch black without NVG. I feel that the ai are also much better at pinpointing a shooter in the day as well from muzzleflash/smoke.

[metalcraze 290]

It isn't like they pinpoint him after one shot either.

[maturin 12]

It isn't like they pinpoint him after one shot either.

An alert AI will pinpoint you perfectly after a single shot, day or night, prone ghillie, out to almost a thousand meters. That's the sad fact underlying all this, the main problem among a host of myths and whining CoD players.

[gunso 10]

1. AI talks to each other and they have larger numbers than you meaning more eyes for their side

2. Use silence weapons for night missions

3. Snipers should be positioned as overwatch at 700-1000m to be effective, not assault team. Snipers are totally useless when enemy missed shots makes their hands shakey.

4. Use smoke to retreat or relocate, use disengage command for your AI

5. MG is to be used at long distance since it's loud but accuracy are compensated by high rate of fire

6. Enemy can pinpoint you by your weapon sound, if you just fire once. you will see that they will start to move towards your location but wont detect you. If you continue firing, all of them will fire towards your location.

7. Try to take out the enemy officer 1st or teamleader, that will help to affect enemy coordination. Higher ranking officer have better stats than lower rank soldier.

8. Diversion, put another guy/team to flank the enemy. But infantry are pretty sluggish and they are pinned once they start an attack. Vehicles seems to work better though.

9. Try mods like ACE which will make shots dispersion better, but i feel like the enemy becoming worse but more player like response.

10. The advantage you have vs enemy AI is range, use it. Your AI will automatically see the enemy at farther range once you spot them. you can hear yourself relaying the info to your AI. Dont bloody work when there's a leaf in front of your binoculars tho =(

11. Dont launch an ambush or assault from on top of the hill, this is not medieval warfare where gravity gives you advantage. Even in real life your silhouette are easily spotted against the clear sky. If you can easily see all the enemy it means all of them can see you too. Only be in this position to relay info to your teams not to attack.

12. Make teams using your AI, 1 team to provide cover and the other will move. You can assign color teams to your AI to easily select them.

13. Do not rush, an enemy that is waiting for you will fire the 1st shot when you are moving unless they are looking away.

14. Expect high casualty if you're assaulting, that's why you need to use range, ambush, flanking maneuvers and all dirty tricks you can think of to increase your survival rate. For eg. you with a small team will attack and lure the enemy towards a different team that's lying in ambush

15. Dont play peek a boo with the enemy AI, once your position is compromised move!

16. Soft cover vs hard cover - Use soft cover like bushes as hiding place and hard cover like rocks and walls for attacking. AI will use cover once you tell them the attack direction. use command like watch 8 o'clock to have them concentrate on one area only.

17. If you have play close combat 3, it's an old top down 2D WW2 game, really realistic game. Units will take a while to get into position and they cant do it well if under fire. Same in arma, once you're under fire moving is not an option anymore. then you will be glad that you have hard cover and another team to flank the enemy from the other side.

Edited June 19, 2012 by gunso

[maturin 12]

Edit: I forgot that Chedaki Officers had NVGs, and posted some nonsense.

However, if enemies surprise you with their ability to see you in the dark, check them for binoculars. These seem to give them an advantage at night that isn't deserved.

Edited June 19, 2012 by maturin

[anthropoid 1]

Thanks for all the info guys! This has turned in to an excellent "tips & tactics" thread :)

I do love the idea of the M-107 sniper though I'm not very good at it. I tend to mostly play the Lost mission and almost always play with that soldier as my main character.

The other day I had a startup near a fairly large inland town; Krasnostav or somesuch. There were literally swarms of AI roaming around down in the town.

I managed to pick off a couple of them and then scoot to a new location :)

Damn! that big sniper rifle has a kick to it when fired from kneeling position! The first one was not a confirmed kill as the kick was so big I didn't manage to recon the position I fired on before I moved to a new position. But the second one was from prone and I managed to catch a glimpse of the corpse before I rolled out and moved away.

That second time they were definitely after me and popped off a couple shots but I got away.

Definitely a very fun and challenging game.

BTW: apart from its incredible range, is an M-107 really that useful in the game? Obviously if you hit a man he is likely to be dead, but can you actually destroy vehicles or are there ever 'materiel' items in the game that the M-107 would come in handy for?

I have fired it at an airborne heli a few times and not sure if I damaged it or one of my AI teammates did, but it did eventually crash.

If I'm gonna try to use an M-107 to disable a heli or UAZ or other lightly armored vehicle, I suppose I want to aim at the engine compartment, which is obvious on most four-wheeled land vehicles, but what about the heli? Right below the rotor?

Edited June 19, 2012 by Anthropoid

[maturin 12]

Not until ArmA 3 will we see .50 rifles disabling the engine blocks of cars. However, that round will go through certain light armored vehicles with ease, and kill any crew who are sitting in the way. This works best with ACE mod, of course.

So far as choppers go, you're best off hitting the pilot, as most components take multiple .50 rounds to disable. Tail rotor and main rotor engine block are valid targets for any 12.7mm weapon.

Edit: And if your Chernarus nights are pitch dark at midnight and early morning, be sure to run without beta patches. They're experimenting with the gamma.

[anthropoid 1]

Is there a way to tell the AI to "Throw Smoke Grenades."

I'm using ASR AI, and I know that they will use them with that mod, but I'm curious if it is possible to get them to use it when I say?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Back in good old times one could order/micromanage his own OFP/CWA AI much better but time is is changing and some working/useful things got "fixed" too.... Guess BIS just listen more and more to potential buyers aka shooter/action and casual game players. How can you run a business and make profit with a simgame?

[anthropoid 1]

Dang.

[froggyluv 2130]

Back in good old times one could order/micromanage his own OFP/CWA AI much better but time is is changing and some working/useful things got "fixed" too.... Guess BIS just listen more and more to potential buyers aka shooter/action and casual game players. How can you run a business and make profit with a simgame?

One thing I miss is the ability to tell your AT soldier to arm his AT weapon and the like. But I also remember AI in OFP being too robotic if given a 'watch direction' or 'hold fire' when they have an enemy in imminent vicinity for contact. Auto Danger obviously sometimes break command but is a necessary evil and is also getting further streamlined.

What I'd like to see added in the future is an exasberated command qualifier. So normally you hit F2 -1 to tell '2' to move somewhere (or Return to Formation) - now hold Shift and it adds a compelling, strained on the shitter, neck vein pulsing and abusive "Thats an order Gawdammit!!!!". The AI will now do whatever you say maybe mumbling something about your mother and him getting killed while under such an order of duress would lower squad morale - just dreamin :p