X-Ray Vision AI

[maturin 12]

Qazdar is an ignorant troll. Why did you start all this, Coulum?

The ai does have more than human spotting ability in certain terrains, in my opinion of course.

Their spotting ability is always the same--terrible.

Notice how the soldier in your screenshots didn't notice you, even though you were standing in the open? Sure, they can pick out targets in the woods, but will still ignore standing men at 200m. Their abilities simply don't degrade as the human eye does. But half of the problem is the reverse of what we're complaining about here, and I worry more about that, because it is stupidity on the part of the AI. I would rather have an AI that is challenging in one situation than useless in all, and the AI in the woods are a worthy opponent for a good player. But not because they cheat or are unfair. Their eyes in the woods are too good, it is a hard balance, but my eyes are still better. Less reliable, but still capable of matching them.

The ignorant troll did say one thing that is true: the AI switches from blindness to eagle vision from the sound of a single gunshot. Surely BI can blunt the extremes and find the realistic middle ground.

Edited June 27, 2012 by maturin

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Maybe,but all what i said is real !

[maturin 12]

Maybe,but all what i said is real !

Is it logic that AI shoot through trees and smoke easily ?

Is it logic that AI infantry kills at 500 m with one bullet of M16 ?

Is it logic that AI soldiers detects ennemy like a radar ?

Is it logic that AI needs to report all ennemies before it starts shooting ?

All obviously, demonstrably false.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Quit editor a bit,and stop watching AI fighting each other like Dr Cortex... and go play a bit to discover how awful is AI.

[-Coulum- 35]

Quit editor a bit,and stop watching AI fighting each other like Dr Cortex... and go play a bit to discover how awful is AI.

That's not how to prove your point at all. Especially not with maturin, who does know a shit load about the ai.

Qazdar is an ignorant troll. Why did you start all this, Coulum?

Mmm... sorry I'll ramble on to anyone about the ai. He doesn't seem to bad so far although a bit uninformed on some matters. And there are some fundamental problems with the ai. Maybe not exactly what he is saying they are... maybe he can be converted?:)

Edited June 27, 2012 by -Coulum-

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Same here !

Maybe he can enlighten us a bit instead of throwing wrong judgements ;)

I can also bring you my warfare mates,to tell you how much i know ,not only about the AI,but the whole game !

Edited June 27, 2012 by On_Sabbatical

[maturin 12]

Quit editor a bit,and stop watching AI fighting each other like Dr Cortex... and go play a bit to discover how awful is AI.

I've been playing since release, 90% of it against AI exclusively, with no humans present.

Is it logic that AI shoot through trees and smoke easily ?

They can't see through trees and smoke, barring small imperfections on the edges of leaves and smoke grenades. But bullets go through these things. I shoot through them all the time.

Is it logic that AI infantry kills at 500 m with one bullet of M16 ?

This is laughable for so many reasons. It takes incredible circumstances for default AI to even shoot at that distance, and 5.56 isn't fatal at that range. It's your blatant hyperbole and imprecision that brings my disrespect. Turn down the damned accuracy settings. Then they shoot like old women. You can make snipers unable to land a single shot in ten at 300m if you want to feel hardcore.

Is it logic that AI soldiers detects enemy like a radar ?

The AI has vision and hearing. That is all. If you fire through a bush at one of them, he will never ever find you, even when a human would logically know that there was an enemy behind the bush.

Is it logic that AI needs to report all ennemies before it starts shooting ?

I see AI open fire instantly all the time. Reporting happens instantly (it's the sound file that takes time), so this is a non-issue that I have never seen any evidence of. And your evidence appears to be your warfare mates.

[-Coulum- 35]

Their spotting ability is always the same--terrible.

Notice how the soldier in your screenshots didn't notice you, even though you were standing in the open? Sure, they can pick out targets in the woods, but will still ignore standing men at 200m. Their abilities simply don't degrade as the human eye does. But half of the problem is the reverse of what we're complaining about here, and I worry more about that, because it is stupidity on the part of the AI. I would rather have an AI that is challenging in one situation than useless in all, and the AI in the woods are a worthy opponent for a good player. But not because they cheat or are unfair. Their eyes in the woods are too good, it is a hard balance, but my eyes are still better. Less reliable, but still capable of matching them.

The ignorant troll did say one thing that is true: the AI switches from blindness to eagle vision from the sound of a single gunshot. Surely BI can blunt the extremes and find the realistic middle ground.

Okay back on semi-topic. Yes the ai absolutely suck at spotting compared to a human... in the open. No doubt about it. Beyond a certain range, the ai just refuse to see you no matter what you do or how long you do it. I don't know the exact range for vanilla (haven't played in a while) but it is ridiculously short. And the ai in my photos was friendly but you are right, he wouldn't have seen me if i was an enemy. Perhaps if I was moving. But probably instantly if I shot at him.

I understand that you would rather have too good rather than too bad, but I believe a "just right" can be reached. I personally like ai having better spotting shooting abilites than I because it forces me to actually use tactics rather than run and gun.

But I still maintain that ai should not be able to see quite as well in certain terrain and this is why

-It makes fire-fights far shorter than they would be in reality in these terrain types

-It makes that "area fire" the ai perform occur even more rarely at these ranges

-It makes terrain not nearly as advantageous as in reality limiting real life tactics against/with the ai

-It makes many real life techniques for stealth/concealment, such as hiding one's silhouette, hiding in areas that maximize camoflauge etc. absolutely useless

and when I say the "ai spotting should be decreased" I don't mean that ai should just have an even lower limited range of sight in forests, but rather that it simpy takes them longer to get as much info on an unit in those particular areas. I hate how there seems to be a "maximium" spotting range in arma. ai should be able to spot units kilos away if you give em enough time or move around enough.

OT

Same here !

Maybe he can enlighten us a bit instead of throwing wrong judgements

I can also bring you my warfare mates,to tell you how much i know ,not only about the AI,but the whole game !

What do you want to know? What maturin just said is all correct as well.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Man,now i am sure that the last time you played was during A2 days :D

Ok listen ,when i say that they shoot through,i'm not waiting for you to tell me that smoke is not a wall :S,but go to editor and try to lock a T72 (to avoid the thermal case) using another tank,it will automatically throw smokes (that's another story) ,then try to get closer without shooting ... you will get killed through smoke.

To verify the Tree-case,just approach an AI from the back prone and at very low speed and make sure you have a tree/or bush between you and it.

if you still have some doubts about it i am ready to make some videos from a live MP game running on vanilla.

That AI detection issue,requires just a small test with high range rifle (as50 for example) and some AI 1500m away,try to hit them at that distance (i'm sure you will miss :D) and notice how they will start staring at you !

My warfare mates are what i consider real arma players (they're over 1000 players andmost of them don't have account here,otherwise there would be a lot of ignorant trolls here),and i noticed that most of guys posting here on forums are a bit clueless and play most of the time SP or lately dayz because when it comes to multiplayer AI's behaviour changes a lot.

Edited June 27, 2012 by On_Sabbatical

[maturin 12]

Ok listen ,when i say that they shoot through,i'm not waiting for you to tell me that smoke is not a wall :S,but go to editor and try to lock a T72 (to avoid the thermal case) using another tank,it will automatically throw smokes (that's another story) ,then try to get closer without shooting ... you will get killed through smoke.

...which would mean that the tank's launcher smoke is glitched. Not an AI problem.

I hide from AI behind smoke grenades EVERY DAY.

To verify the Tree-case,just approach an AI from the back prone and at very low speed and make sure you have a tree/or bush between you and it.

And what? If you think that the AI can see with eyes in the back of their head, or through a bush, you are a bigger fool than I can fathom. I already told you, however, that Chernarus tree trunks are glitched.

if you still have some doubts about it i am ready to make some videos from a live MP game running on vanilla.

Why MP? Too many possible variables of bad servers and lag.

That AI detection issue,requires just a small test with high range rifle (as50 for example) and some AI 1500m away,try to hit them at that distance (i'm sure you will miss :D) and notice how they will start staring at you !

Derp. They heard a gun and they look in the direction of the sound.

AI don't hear normal gunshots from that range. Humans hear gunshots farther than the AI do.

My warfare mates are what i consider real arma players (they're over 1000 players andmost of them don't have account here,otherwise there would be a lot of ignorant trolls here),and i noticed that most of guys posting here on forums are a bit clueless

I think you're making things up.

and play most of the time SP or lately dayz because when it comes to multiplayer AI's behaviour changes a lot.

Err, no. MP runs AI on the same code as SP. Maybe when your thousand-strong superleet warfare (a newby mission type if I ever saw one) friends play on an overworked server with bad mission scripting that gives you more glitches, but there's no real difference.

Everything I talk about I have tested personally, in a controlled environment that would be good enough for a lab report. And I've never found a reasonable person on the forums who got results that aren't familiar. No one who talks in terms of experience and evidence has given me cause to doubt my findings. So it's just your and references to your warfare buddies, and your wild, exquisitely vague claims.

[-Coulum- 35]

Ok listen ,when i say that they shoot through,i'm not waiting for you to tell me that smoke is not a wall :S,but go to editor and try to lock a T72 (to avoid the thermal case) using another tank,it will automatically throw smokes (that's another story) ,then try to get closer without shooting ... you will get killed through smoke.

Yep, as i said before, smoke isn't perfect. It isn't so much a problem with the ai as it is with the smoke. The way I understand it is the shape of the viewblock and the actual smoke differ, leading to ai shooting you when they shouldn't or the opposite way around.

To verify the Tree-case,just approach an AI from the back prone and at very low speed and make sure you have a tree/or bush between you and it.

i don't know what range you are talking about. at 100 metres this doesn't happen at all. At 5 metre it does. Yes the ai can hear. If I heard something crawling around in the bushes beside me I would turn to look too.

That AI detection issue,requires just a small test with high range rifle (as50 for example) and some AI 1500m away,try to hit them at that distance (i'm sure you will miss ) and notice how they will start staring at you !

Are you sure that they actually see you though. When ai hear a shot they will turn in the direction they heard it come from. They will not see you at that range. Now at closer ranges 400-500 metres lets say, when you fire that second shot off they will see you instantly. This kind of thing is a problem and needs to be fixed. This is what maturin meant by

The ignorant troll did say one thing that is true: the AI switches from blindness to eagle vision from the sound of a single gunshot. Surely BI can blunt the extremes and find the realistic middle ground.

My warfare mates are what i consider real arma players (they're over 1000 players andmost of them don't have account here,otherwise there would be a lot of ignorant trolls here),and i noticed that most of guys posting here on forums are a bit clueless and play most of the time SP or lately dayz because when it comes to multiplayer AI's behaviour changes a lot.

I don't really find multiplayer to change that much. I play with friends on LAN pretty regularly and it seems pretty much the same as when I play singleplayer. But I guess we aren't real arma players:) (no worries I am totally joking, I don't hold your comment against you).

And one question just to think about. maybe this doesn't apply to you but when I play (mp or sp) me and my buddies usually get an insanely high number of kills in a single mission, and we play with no respawn. And we're not exactly tactical geniuses. So if the ai has way to good spotting, why is it that we still get 20 kills min each?

--edit--

Ah fuck, I got ninja'd. I type too slow.

[maturin 12]

Yep, as i said before, smoke isn't perfect. It isn't so much a problem with the ai as it is with the smoke. The way I understand it is the shape of the viewblock and the actual smoke differ, leading to ai shooting you when they shouldn't or the opposite way around.

At least with handheld smoke grenades, any viewblock discrepancies aren't too bad. They favor the player, if anything. Smoke in the engine has a terrible glitch where you can see straight through it with a scope, as the player, if you're right up close.

But vehicles handle spotting and target tracking differently from infantry, and there are a number of very irritating glitches. For example, a number of stupid 'forum non-warfare fake arma players' (including myself) posted tickets on the bugtracker to get rid of the 360 vision that vehicles had in certain situations (and notice how they didn't accomplish this important service to the community through bitching and whining and bashing BIS with vague exaggerations). Another bug appears to allow them to track target through smoke at times. I found it a year ago, but haven't been able to build a strong ticket on it.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

the tank launcher is bugged ... lol

You can't hear any gun at 1500m distance

Warfare BE is not a newby mission,trust me it's the most complex mission that has ever been made for a game ... anyone who is good at it laughs at any other mission !

Warfare maybe lags but only when it"s about to end.

Why you talk so agressively ? :D

Edited June 27, 2012 by On_Sabbatical

[maturin 12]

Warfare maybe lags but only when it"s about to end.

Or instantly, if you're playing the last missions of Harvest Red on a weaker PC. The sheer terrifying variety of bugs I have seen in that campaign is incredible. Everything you thought you knew about your computer and the game can explode in fiery shards. If all you play is warfare, no wonder you're so confused.

I talk aggressively because if I have to hear about the myths you're peddling one more time I'm going to snap. And unlike all the news who are getting their butts kicked and assuming it must be cheats, you're arguing with scientifically (in method) proven facts gained by research, calling forum people ignorant and making careless, unsupportable claims.

the tank launcher is bugged ... lol

Go ahead and dismiss it. It just convinces me more that you don't employ the simplest logic.

If the AI doesn't see through one kind of smoke, yet sees through another, what is the explanation? That they have super duper X-ray vision because BIS hates us? Or that one kind of smoke is not correctly calibrated to work with AI all of the time?

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Or,maybe just that there is an AI inside the turret :D

But we both agree that AI in this game is still far from being decent ! when it comes to CQB

[maturin 12]

Yeah, they're still bad at CQB, although nowadays they are good enough to pose an intense threat. They are at their worst in CQB, yet most Fallujah missions still result in death for the humans, unless they have support or face light resistance.

Actually, their behavior in CQB is the clearest proof that they don't see through walls in combat. Ever.

They see you run across a street, make a terrible guess of where you ran to and then lie down to watch that direction until you walk up from behind and kill them. They can only think in straight lines, and only watch you emerge from corners by dumb luck. If they could see through solid objects, we would all die. In my editor, I have some placeable buildings that the AI can see right through for testing purposes. It's insane what happens then.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

but,at high skill levels a resistanc AKM can put you down in one shot :D

[-Coulum- 35]

but,at high skill levels a resistanc AKM can put you down in one shot

And the problem is??

And by the way here's a good mod for close combat.

Yes ai suck at close combat. CQB magnifies the flaws the ai still experience in long ranged combat, that we overlook because ranged combat isn't as unforgiving (in certain aspects).

Edited June 27, 2012 by -Coulum-

[maturin 12]

And strangely, the AI's excellent sense of hearing becomes almost useless at close quarters. They can use their ears to roughly place a gunshot from 500m away, but this ability does not improve at 5m, and just results in them getting confused and staring in the wrong direction with tunnel vision.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

The problem is that AKM is not the kind the rifles that's usually successful at the first shot due to high recoil and the heavy bullet !

[becubed 24]

but,at high skill levels a resistanc AKM can put you down in one shot :D

Doesn't that point out why....

[maturin 12]

The problem is that AKM is not the kind the rifles that's usually successful at the first shot due to high recoil and the heavy bullet !

The AKM is an accurate rifle.

How does high recoil mess up your first shot? A heavy bullet is exactly what makes it successful on the first shot.

I suppose the M14, SVD, FAL, G3 and all those other guns with even higher recoil and heavier bullets can't hit on the first shot either? Even though they are often fitted with scopes and accurized for marksmen?

The influence of CoD is not felt in ArmA's gameplay; it's felt in the hundreds of players who want to fight worthless cannon fodder with bad equipment instead of challenging opponents.

[-Coulum- 35]

The AKM is an accurate rifle.

How does high recoil mess up your first shot? A heavy bullet is exactly what makes it successful on the first shot.

I suppose the M14, SVD, FAL, G3 and all those other guns with even higher recoil and heavier bullets can't hit on the first shot either? Even though they are often fitted with scopes and accurized for marksmen?

The influence of CoD is not felt in ArmA's gameplay; it's felt in the hundreds of players who want to fight worthless cannon fodder with bad equipment instead of challenging opponents.

This. And are you (Qazdar) going to say that you can't hit an enemy with an akm in one shot? It really isn't that hard for a player so why should it be for an ai.

[maturin 12]

I killed someone with an AKM at 700m the other day, but honestly it was a freak shot after hosing down a forest where tracers were hitting.

[erupter 1]

And one question just to think about. maybe this doesn't apply to you but when I play (mp or sp) me and my buddies usually get an insanely high number of kills in a single mission, and we play with no respawn. And we're not exactly tactical geniuses. So if the ai has way to good spotting, why is it that we still get 20 kills min

I'm a member of a clan.

there are lots of missions on the servers: some you may even solo if you know them, some won't allow you to take one foul step no matter how many players you bring.

Played missions were a team of 8 was all dead 7 minutes in the game, played others were 5 guys could cherry-pick and laugh at AIs that didn't even move or coordinate to respond to fire.

Your remark doesn't make sense.

The AIs are in the hands of mission makers, problems arise when them mission makers are good!

Swiped on my Optimus2X with Tapas