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anthropoid

X-Ray Vision AI

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i miss the OFP targeting style where you can right click using binocular for units hiding behind trees and the gunship radar where you can click on individual dots. Not tab lock spamming like now T_T

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It's not directly related to night situations, although recently my clan's been fighting mainly during night.

And while we humans have trouble even spotting them, they have no trouble at all hitting us hard.

Anyway here is a video I made yesterday

Description really says it all.

300m, dense forest, plants inbetween, no binoculars. Yet they spot instantly and even fire granades with laser precision.

Player is dead 1 minute after, being running since spotting, granade landed directly on his head.

All of this through thick trees.

This really ruined it as I couldn't even see them without the binoculars.

After starting to run, they had to climb the hill, and reach me.

Launching granades through thick trees isn't going to end up good easily.

Yet it does.

In one minute flat.

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Hmm.... you are standing there a little bit exposed. From 0:12 they notice a contact and 7/8 seconds later they move into combat, sounds like one of your team is firing first. If you don't want to be located + targeted don't reveal yourself (incl. movements/gunfire). Try to see the situation from the oppenents side too so you can guess/predict what he can see and where he can move. Don't set the AI skill + AI precision/UltraAI to max = 1 thats just good for testing. If you have to move in close range to enemy use the slowest speed and don't expose yourself. If player can aim/shoot through two branches or a gap in foliage - AI should be able to do the same.

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Hmm.... you are standing there a little bit exposed. From 0:12 they notice a contact and 7/8 seconds later they move into combat, sounds like one of your team is firing first. If you don't want to be located + targeted don't reveal yourself (incl. movements/gunfire). Try to see the situation from the oppenents side too so you can guess/predict what he can see and where he can move. Don't set the AI skill + AI precision/UltraAI to max = 1 thats just good for testing. If you have to move in close range to enemy use the slowest speed and don't expose yourself. If player can aim/shoot through two branches or a gap in foliage - AI should be able to do the same.

My team was being engaged by another squad 500m or so south-west. My bino were pointing north-north-west in the video.

There were two enemy teams, one engaged my CSAR team, and another engaged me. And I'm critizing the fact that I was complitely unable to see them without binoculars while they saw me instantly through foliage and without vision aids.

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Yeah the AI in the game are badasses there is no doubt about it:

1. they are generally alert

2. they see far (maybe too far as you note)

3. they fire in directions/at positions and often tend to get hits even at high ranges for the weapons involved

4. they shoot through obstructions at targets that are barely visible (to be fair, I bet you COULD see them without the binoculars; it is just that it would be like 3 pixels at a time that would flash in between two blades of grass and a leaf a couple times)

5. they react quickly (generally)

6. they are courageous (generally)

7. they are tenacious and aggressive (generally)

8. they don't waver and they swing into a coordinated response to a contact almost immediately, including flanking or going stealthy or taking cover.

9. they sometimes ignore suppressive fire

None of the above is totally 'unrealistic' per se, certainly a spec ops or very solidary group of experienced soldiers could exhibit all those behaviors. Indeed, something like that set of behaviors is probably what makes the differnece between squads/platoons that win with few casualties and those that get pawned in real life . . . The one thing that I do agree is somewhat 'questionable' is the resolution of their sighting. I too have noted that even if I'm prone and focused on an area where there is suspected AI, I find it very hard to distinguish which blob of pixels is the enemy moving around behind that mess of obstructions, a perceptual limitation that does not seem to hamper either my own AI teammates, nor the enemy AI. Having never been in a fire fight I'll just assume that this is 'realistic' and that soldiers often have to fire on targets that are scarcely visible or even to just observer where their mates are firing and just take lucky shots in the same direction? For a while there I really did think the AI had "X-ray Vision" but I have subsequently observed that: when I or one of my AI do an Auto-report of a contact, if I am sufficiently quick to scan the area with a scope or bino I can in fact catch glimpses of the contact flitting into and out of view between the trees.

I think the way to make sense of the contact reports is: glimpse that the viewer is 75% confident about . . . but then they don't always report these contacts as positive contacts of enemies (annoyingly they often report our own troops as 'unknowns') . . .

Clearly the current system can be mastered as I've seen videos of humans vs. AI players doing amazing things. In part I think playing as if you really are out there in the field and you don't want to die might be part of that. It can seem like gaming the system, but as someone pointed out, we are dealing with a lot of limitations: 2d presentation without well integrated peripheral sound/vision input being the main one, but a foe that is ultimately nothing but a bunch of behavior algorithms executed in that fake 3d game world being the other.

I think that mastring ArmA2, even just mastering PVE, takes a lot of play.

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@erupter: if they spotted you they would be shooting at you instantly, not running for cover. Running for cover without shooting is a reaction to gunshots from an unknown target for ArmA2 AI. Nothing else. They clearly reacted to gunshots not you.

Player is dead 1 minute after, being running since spotting

LOL so you ran instead of going prone to stay hidden and it took them a whole 1 minute to really spot you and kill you while you were running around. What's the problem? Where's the X-ray vision?

This is how silly myths are born.

Edited by metalcraze

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Take On Monty Python

NoRailGunner, priceless video :D

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My team was being engaged by another squad 500m or so south-west. My bino were pointing north-north-west in the video.

In that case they already knew where to look for you.

And I'm critizing the fact that I was complitely unable to see them without binoculars while they saw me instantly through foliage and without vision aids.

Er, they have very clear line of sight to your entire standing body. How could you not have seen them? Is your resolution turned down to that of an Iphone? They saw you 'instantly' because vision travels at the same speed as light. Were they not scanning for an enemy already in your vicinity, they would have proven quite numb.

I don't understand what prevented you from seeing them first. If the foliage actually covered the gap in the trees before you zoomed with the binos, then that is a model/LoD/texture streaming issue in the engine and/or your computer, not an AI issue.

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Originally Posted by Anthropoid

There must be a mod that fixes this; wait, no . . . there probably isn't because the code behind "sighting" enemies is probably inaccessible

Dont hold your breath theres nothing in this community thats impossible and Yes there is a mod and its adjustable too.

see here:

Infantry Stealth and Recognition Skills

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=9604

from the thread of the mod:

Fun testing results:

- With Audible at 0 enemy units cannot hear you at all, unless you fire a weapon, but can still see you (good for stealth adjustments).

- With Camouflage set to 0 enemy units cannot see you at all, unless you fire a weapon, but can hear you move (you can run around them in a circle, LOL)

- with both set at 0 enemy units cannot see nor hear you, once again unless you fire a weapon.

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@NoRailgunner

LOL! That was great!

Although the ai does not in any way cheat I believe their spotting abilities are not exactly equal with a human's. The main problem is that they are not "confused" by complex scenes. If a human looks at a open field with a person in it they will pick out that person instantaneously because the person contrasts so much with the surroundings. Now if you take that same situation but made it a forest instead of a field, even if that person was still in plane view, it would take much longer to spot him. This is because the human eye is confused by all the trees, and the person "blends in".

This does not apply to the ai however. If your in view they see you just as easily no matter what terrain you are hiding in. I think this is the cause of alot of the "ai has xray vision"/"ai sees through trees/bushes myths". heres what I wrote about it awhile ago...

But what about complex terrain like forests. I think the ai spots to easily there. I don’t mean they cheat, or see through bushes/trees, I just mean that they don’t get confused like a human would when looking into these areas. The time it takes a human to see someone in open terrain can be half as much as that needed to spot someone in a relatively populated terrain. Even if they aren’t hiding behind something. Just compare this (open) to this (slightly complex). there isn't even that many bushes in the second and still i find it much harder to spot the enemy. But for an ai this does not apply. No matter what terrain you are in they see you just as well as long as you are exposed. I think this could use improvement not only to make ai have more realistic capabilities but to also make terrain have a bigger impact on game play and tactics, even when involving the ai.

And heres an example why some people get frustrated with the ai. If I take up a position like this, or like this, it doesn't matter to the ai. They'll still see me just as easily and just as fast.

this also works the other way around though. players are able to pick out enemies in the open much easier than ai.

I hope that this kind of thing is improved at some point as it will lead to more importance to terrain whan planning, and if done right, could make the ai use more area fire resulting in better firefights.

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Full disclosure: There's a glitch that still bedevils BIS where the AI can see through the *trunks* of trees.

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Full disclosure: There's a glitch that still bedevils BIS where the AI can see through the *trunks* of trees.

You mean the thread few months (?) back in one of the beta threads? Wasn't that a case of only *some* tree trunks being bugged? I remember some comparison pictures with red and green fluffy clouds visualising knowsabout or such stuff ;-)

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I don't understand what prevented you from seeing them first. If the foliage actually covered the gap in the trees before you zoomed with the binos, then that is a model/LoD/texture streaming issue in the engine and/or your computer, not an AI issue.

Maybe the fact they were two pixels tall in total?

Man you (and I) are staring at a monitor that struggles to represent our entire field of vision in just a few inchesand with just so many pixels.

300 meters in dense forest with grass translates in just a few grey (if you are lucky) pixels.

You can pause the video and try to see before I put on the binos.

I could even give you the full res thing.

Fact is you can't be 100% sure it's not a rabbit or a cow or whatever: it's just a teenie-tiny grey patch in the distance.

They ought to have the same problem.

Fact is they don't.

Proven in countless other missions.

Especially night vision gives me the creeps.

Swiped on my Optimus2X with Tapas

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You mean the thread few months (?) back in one of the beta threads? Wasn't that a case of only *some* tree trunks being bugged? I remember some comparison pictures with red and green fluffy clouds visualising knowsabout or such stuff ;-)

Just Chernarus tree trunks.

The red and green fluffy clouds you remember were example pictures of viewblock in bushes. The strange thing about the Chernarus tree trunks is that the models have the geometry to block AI vision, but for some reason it is malfunctioning.

300 meters in dense forest with grass translates in just a few grey (if you are lucky) pixels.

Sorry, I can tell friend from foe at 300m any day of the week, even with my shitty resolution.

You were SHOOTING GUNS. Human players would have recognized the sounds of enemy weapons. Human players would have seen movement and combat, and realized that no friendly units were at your position.

The AI are much worse at spotting than humans are (except certain short range nighttime situations that are quite rare), period. Their spotting abilities are not subject to human carelessness, but they have hard limits that seemingly model a vision-impaired person who never looks into the distance. I am referring here to the first acquisition of targets, not the location of shooters. Think on the missions you have played, by yourself and with others. If you haven't spotted the AI first nine times out of ten, I am sorry but you are terrible at this game. Surely if the AI were fair to the player, they would have a 50/50 chance of getting the drop on you?

Edited by maturin

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AI is crap in this game,either it's dumb like **** or unreal like those MG pods from splinter cell !

But devs seem to be interested in zombies more than the milsim this game is supposed to be !

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Sorry, I can tell friend from foe at 300m any day of the week, even with my shitty resolution.

Yes but that's once you have spotted them in the first place. And hey maybe you can spot them any day of the week, but can you spot them in any terrain. I know pictures can't convey exactly what you would see in game but...

Can you see him

What about when zoomed in?

With the map to guide you?

Now I am pointing directly at him...

Zoomed in

Okay now you see him right?

He was here all along

When were you able to spot him. And if you did, how long did it take. If you can do it quickly, then kudos, I guess I just really suck at this game.

There is no AA but the screen resolution is at 1080. I know some detail was probably lost when I posted it to the internet but I think that it still demonstrates that spotting someone at 300 metres isn't always easy, even in real life... If it were, imagine how short firefights in reality would be...

I usually don't try to argue against more competent ai but some aspects of people's arguments are true. The ai does have more than human spotting ability in certain terrains, in my opinion of course.

The AI are much worse at spotting than humans are (except certain short range nighttime situations that are quite rare), period. Their spotting abilities are not subject to human carelessness, but they have hard limits that seemingly model a vision-impaired person who never looks into the distance. I am referring here to the first acquisition of targets, not the location of shooters. Think on the missions you have played, by yourself and with others. If you haven't spotted the AI first nine times out of ten, I am sorry but you are terrible at this game. Surely if the AI were fair to the player, they would have a 50/50 chance of getting the drop on you?

On open terrain I totally agree. I can spot an enemy from 500 - 600 m without optics in takistani deserts in less than 10 seconds usually. Put an ai at that range and he won't be able to see you even if you run around and wait for hours. At close ranges, like under 100 metres, I also agree with you. In those cases I don't know if its the ai doesn't see me or is just to dumb to do something about it, but they definitely suck either way. But...

In densely populated terrain, I disagree. When playing sp, in a forest, in a dynamic mission where I don't know where the enemy is coming from already, My ai or the enemy see each other usually before I see anyone. Maybe I am a crappy player but I think it is more to do with the fact that ai is not confused by camouflage and the complexity of the scene they are viewing.

AI is crap in this game,either it's dumb like **** or unreal like those MG pods from splinter cell !

But devs seem to be interested in zombies more than the milsim this game is supposed to be !

Well the hope is that they are doing the zombies so they have the money to make it the milsim.But honestly nobody said its supposed to be a milsim did they?

And I would say that the ai is always dumb like ****. They also have very bad skills (shooting spotting reaction time etc.) except for the occasional flash of super human (being able to instantly spot a shooter based on muzzle flash, being able to spot someone in a forest with ease, and speed)

Edited by -Coulum-

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AI is crap in this game,either it's dumb like **** or unreal like those MG pods from splinter cell !

But devs seem to be interested in zombies more than the milsim this game is supposed to be !

What game should we use as a model of AI that isn't scripted?

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What game should we use as a model of AI that isn't scripted?

he never said it was worse than any other game. Arma has the best dynamic ai around... but its still relatively dumb. The only thing I can think of is npc's in fallout use cover more efficiently than in arma. But even fallout doesn't have nearly the scale as arma. Game comes close.

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What game should we use as a model of AI that isn't scripted?

It's called logic and real life !

Is it logic that AI shoot through trees and smoke easily ?

Is it logic that AI infantry kills at 500 m with one bullet of M16 ?

Is it logic that AI soldiers detects ennemy like a radar ?

Is it logic that AI needs to report all ennemies before it starts shooting ?

Is it logic that AI tank shoot MGnest instead of ennemies around with higher priority (AT soldiers or tanks) ?

Is it logic that a full team of javelin boys shoot one tank at the same time ?

ETC ... ETC ...

But maybe making nights darker is more urgent than this -.-

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Ai don't shoot through trees very often, and when they do its because they saw you run behind one. Smoke is a problem but I belive that more a problem with the smoke than the ai.

Is it logic that AI infantry kills at 500 m with one bullet of M16 ?

Really? I have trouble making an ai hit in one shot with a sniper rifle at that range. You might want to double check that and keep in mind that a human can also do this, or even this, so why can't an ai do it (which they can't despite what alot of people think).

Is it logic that AI needs to report all ennemies before it starts shooting ?

Is it logic that AI tank shoot MGnest instead of ennemies around with higher priority (AT soldiers or tanks) ?

Is it logic that a full team of javelin boys shoot one tank at the same time ?

I agree with you on those ones though. And there are a list of other things the ai do badly, my particular favourite at this time is simple standing in the middle of a firefight, with bullets wizzing by, even when they have a wall in front of them they could easily go prone behind to save their lives.
But maybe making nights darker is more urgent than this

My guess is because ai is somewhat of a gamble compared to something like lighting. You could spend hundreds of hours on ai and come up with something even worse than what you started with. Lighting not so much. But even still, I wish they would make a really big push to make the ai competent and realistic. At the very least I hope in arma 3 mods like asr will be in the vanilla game.

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If you have time,jump on WASP warfare server (i play there always :D),and you will notice all those bugs i mentioned :D

Concerning shooting through trees,they see you first:i agree,but the way AI tracks you behind trees is pretty annoying !

There are many mods that address some of these issues !

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If you have time,jump on WASP warfare server (i play there always ),and you will notice all those bugs i mentioned

Besides the shooting ability of the ai (which isn't really a bug), I am sure I will believe you. Unfortunately my internet doesn't really allow me to play MP unless the server is next door.
Concerning shooting through trees,they see you first:i agree,but the way AI tracks you behind trees is pretty annoying !

Yep I used to find it annoying to. But they don't track you but rather predict where you are going. So if your unpredictable they will not find you. if the bush or whatever isn't big enough to really make them loose you well.... well that my friend is called being pinned down. With a human it would be no different except they would launch grenade other the bush as well.

There are many mods that address some of these issues !

Meh... don't get me wrong, mods are awesome and I couldn't play without them in arma but they don't address the core problems the ai have. they just kind of make them less noticeable. For example ASR ai, tons of people swear that improves ai cover finding behaviour. Not to take anything away from Robalo's great mod, but I don't believe ASR does this at all. It does however increase ai spotting range, making engagement ranges longer, making the odds of ai getting killed in the first few seconds of combat decrease, letting them have more time to find cover. The mod doesn't actually fix cover finding ability, but it does make it appear to be better. And then there is the placebo effect at work as well...

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Well,you're right :D

But let me sum up my point of view concerning AI (i don't trust AI to play for me on warfare,but only for miscallenous tasks :D):

The best AI shouldn't be better than a decent arma player ! :D

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