Syria - What should we do if anything?

[vilas 477]

is someone here payed by CIA or what ?

democracy in such countries mean - majority will to slaughter minority who would like to eat pork for example

[spooky lynx 73]

Well, you may name me a racial bigot or whatever else but I talk about what I see among my Arabian relatives who live there. Oh and they say about clans the same too. That's not the racism or something similar. The cultures are different, so what works with one nation may not work with other. If you are supporter of multiculturalism you' d know this.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Well, you may name me a racial bigot or whatever else but I talk about what I see among my Arabian relatives who live there. Oh and they say about clans the same too. That's not the racism or something similar. The cultures are different, so what works with one nation may not work with other. If you are supporter of multiculturalism you' d know this.

Well it's easy then - you have a free and fair election and let the people choose the method by which they want to be governed or do you think it's better that they are simply told what's best for them. If you are so sure dictatorship is correct and you are so sure that's what people who live in the Middle East want, no harm in asking them is there? Did you also know that some people see left-wing 'Dictator love' as an ersatz intelligence test?

[mrcash2009 0]

Things are not as cut and dried and rainbow politics over in those countries so putting some model we have in place (or smashing it in) or seeing it that way is a square peg in a round hole, you have Iraq to prove that pure and simple.

[spooky lynx 73]

Well it's easy then - you have a free and fair election and let the people choose the method by which they want to be governed or do you think it's better that they are simply told what's best for them. If you are so sure dictatorship is correct and you are so sure that's what people who live in the Middle East want, no harm in asking them is there? Did you also know that some people see left-wing 'Dictator love' as an ersatz intelligence test?

Okay let's make free and fair elections. Well, what will happen after its end? The tribes or clans for sure will say that only their candidate won fairly and others are cheaters etc. The result is armed clashes between the supporters of candidates. The only fair candidate for the clan is the person that belongs to it. Or look at the Egypt: at first elections that MB won, at second revolt again against freshly elected MB with hunreds killed within some days. That's the democracy as it is in ME.

Oh and I see the will to bring European style elections, behavior and way of life to another nation with their own way of life as intelligence test too. Don't mess with your own statute in another's monastery, as one wise proverb says.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Spooky Lynx

[vilas 477]

are so sure that's what people who live in the Middle East want

i know what they want- they want slaughter me for eating pork, plus probably slaughter some girls for showing legs (mini skirts) and face plus probably forbid listen to Metallica-like music plus forbid much more , how much CIA pays you for this propaganda you say here ?

i know why US elites (especially financial cause it is production of arms from US taxpayers' pocket) wants intervention in Syria, they want to open gate and strategic point to destroy Iran and take their oil plus give safety for Israel due to bank-owners in USA of Jewish nationality + some destabilization of opponents (putting them to tribe and clan wars with intention to make them problems and not buy arms from Russia, let they kill each other with M16s), nothing more,

what about human rights in Saudi Arabia ?

there is no "human rights" in it, cause if there were "human rights" than what about for example sexual minority rights in Middle East or even human right to eat whatever i want (including pork) ? for 69 sex they kill too, give them freedom to choose Islamic law and in week they will slaughter more than during whole this war, hat about human right to eat not halal food http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal ?

if you wanna sell propaganda about human rights, ask women stoned for silly things or being lesbians,

dictator keeping state secular is much better than "democracy" with religion which forbids to eat something , we cannot give any democracy to people who want to cut our throats because of us eating pizza with ham for god sake , in French street bus man was attacked and beaten by Muslims cause they seen he was eating sandwich with ham, moreover, they felt offended and said to police that he is guilty - such mentality people cannot have any democracy and rights to slaughter us cause we eat ham

otherwise what is all about 9 11 and all that Afagnistan war ? let than move back all troops bring back Taliban to government and give them the same freedom, Assad is bad cause use MiG , SU, BMP, AK, if he was using M16, M113, AH it would be called "he fights terrorists" (probably he fights the same terrorists which US, UK and other soldiers fight in A-stan)

Edited September 2, 2013 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

Assad uses SA-342 Gazelles too:) Together with US-style helmets and US BDU-like uniforms.

And to be serious not all Europeans understand ME way of life (and similar Caucasian or Middle Asian). That's why they think that elections and their results will mirror those in Europe.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

And there we have it, all Muslims are the same, Muslims aren't advanced enough for democracy and all Muslims want to kill you ROFL. So who cares if they gassed and slaughtered by the 1000? It's boils down to racist bigotry doesn't it gents? Wow even some Jew bankers thrown in there for good measure! (They are CEO's in only 2 major banks BTW) I would suggest to you that you are attributing the views of a minority to the whole population.

Regarding these wonderful secular dictators that you admire so much. Why is it most of their personal television stations and newspapers are filled with conspiracy theories about Western Imperialism and Zionist plots whilst at the same time heavily controlling and censoring the internet and access to information? They regularly justify the vast security apparatus, WMD, lack of freedom and elections as countermeasures to Zionist/USA imperialist plots when in fact all of it is used solely against their own populations. Most political adversaries are first put down and arrested due to their alleged involvement with these conspiracies.

I would suggest that the reason that many in the middle east want to kill you is because they are brainwashed daily into thinking there are foreign plots by charming secular dictators. In places such as Syria, Iran, Libya and Iraq under Saddam Hussein, conspiracy theories have served an Orwellian function by crowding out facts and making the truth look like a peripheral idea. Just look at the some of the ridiculous activists on this forum who can't get their science to stack up?

So I would suggest, if you value your safety, the first step would be to get rid of dictators who spread nonsense about you along with neutralizing the religious extremists. These wonderful secular dictators are just 1 half of the problem.

[scrim 1]

Some of you say about the democracy at Middle East... Are you sure it is possible while most of the population there still has clan-based relations? Unfortunately dictatorship is the only possible solution now, because only dictator may really keep constant balance between different clans, tribes and religions there, like Qaddafi (may he rest in peace) did. Either local dictator shoul do this or... colonial administration. Maybe after some decades Middle East society will transform itself to something similar to current European one.

Holy sh...

So the rules here prohibit any sort of display of gore, even via links, but says nada about promoting clear breaches of basic human rights?

Note: Nope, not about forum moderation, rather a comment regarding quoted post.

[Rovka 14]

Religion on itself isn't the problem, but what people make of it however is:

Cut-throats will cut throat, peace preachers preach peace, people observe, people follow. And those out of line of dangerous people's thoughtpattern are executed. That will always be so.

True equalty for all, and strictly adhered high penalty-regulations plus the ban on religion is the way to go. Criminals are criminals and must be harshly dealt with after a fair trial by law.

As for Syria, like so many places of anarchy, this nation right now is a magnet for criminals wanting to fight and kill even for the thrill of it. Let those be slain by the masses, but the bad thing is they're hiding amongst civilians. Is Assad to blame for that too??

Remember, Assad is the head, but not the whole body of the snake. And the rebels are a Medusa with multiple snakes for hair. So what'd you rather have, a king cobra or many little poisonous snakes slivering about?? I would go for the king cobra.

Dictatorship is bad to a certain extend, but atleast there was peace before the war begun. And now? Like in Libia, Syria's future looks bleak, with a long time of war and uncertainty to come. Heck Iraq and Afghanistan are still at war left in chaos.. Middle-East likely never know true peace in our lifetimes. But neither do we, for in Europe too the unrest grows, as mass- unemployment goes higher and higher. I feel it's like a slowmotion vision of the late Weimar Republic all over again... Extremists views rise all over the place...

Thanks to media it's culture versus culture, sub-culture verses sub-culture, religion vs. religion, non-religion vs. religion and so forth, we're bound for a clash wether we like it or not. Every once in a while a war passes by. Middle East now, Europe is next.

[vilas 477]

Holy sh...

So the rules here prohibit any sort of display of gore, even via links, but says nada about promoting clear breaches of basic human rights?

Note: Nope, not about forum moderation, rather a comment regarding quoted post.

btw about human rights, how many homosexuals executed in Muslim countries in last decade ?

only dicator keeping state seculare guarantess human right in such culture

[froggyluv 2136]

Religion on itself isn't the problem' date=' but what people make of it however is:

Cut-throats will cut throat, peace preachers preach peace, people observe, people follow. And those out of line of dangerous people's thoughtpattern are executed. That will always be so.

True equalty for all, and strictly adhered high penalty-regulations plus the ban on religion is the way to go. Criminals are criminals and must be harshly dealt with after a fair trial by law.

As for Syria, like so many places of anarchy, this nation right now is a magnet for criminals wanting to fight and kill even for the thrill of it. Let those be slain by the masses, but the bad thing is they're hiding amongst civilians. Is Assad to blame for that too??

Remember, Assad is the head, but not the whole body of the snake. And the rebels are a Medusa with multiple snakes for hair. So what'd you rather have, a king cobra or many little poisonous snakes slivering about?? I would go for the king cobra.

Dictatorship is bad to a certain extend, but atleast there was peace before the war begun. And now? Like in Libia, Syria's future looks bleak, with a long time of war and uncertainty to come. Heck Iraq and Afghanistan are still at war left in chaos.. Middle-East likely never know true peace in our lifetimes. But neither do we, for in Europe too the unrest grows, as mass- unemployment goes higher and higher. I feel it's like a slowmotion vision of the late Weimar Republic all over again... Extremists views rise all over the place...

Thanks to media it's culture versus culture, sub-culture verses sub-culture, religion vs. religion, non-religion vs. religion and so forth, we're bound for a clash wether we like it or not. Every once in a while a war passes by. Middle East now, Europe is next.[/quote']

Wow. Great post. And your right of course, plenty of worldwide atrocities committed outside the bounds of religion -U.S Black slavery, the complete annihilation of an entire continent of people aka Native Americans, as well as dictators in Russia, Germany, Cambodia, South Korea etc... Plenty of blame to go around both within and outside but certainly NOT exclusive to religion. I studied pre-Islamic Middle East and the shit that the tribes were doing exceeded even that of Al Qaeda on a grumpy day. Whether or whether not one considers religion an inherent evil, the cultivated evil of that culture always manages to both persevere and permeate any teachings.

[spooky lynx 73]

Holy sh...

So the rules here prohibit any sort of display of gore, even via links, but says nada about promoting clear breaches of basic human rights?

Note: Nope, not about forum moderation, rather a comment regarding quoted post.

Like it or not but the facts look this way. European understanding and regulation of human rights does not work everywhere equally. Cultures are different. Understanding of rights is different in different parts of the world. One thing may be threated both as the breach of human rights or normal behavior of well-respected person.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Like it or not but the facts look this way. European understanding and regulation of human rights does not work everywhere equally. Cultures are different. Understanding of rights is different in different parts of the world. One thing may be threated both as the breach of human rights or normal behavior of well-respected person.

That's a total misunderstanding of human rights. Universal by nature.

[spooky lynx 73]

That's a total misunderstanding of human rights. Universal is their nature.

In some regions such 'human rights blah blah' talks mean weakness and excuse to punch/rob/steal etc. The more strong, cunning and impudent you are - the more rights you have.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Arab League : "Only UN can stop Syria crimes : Secretary general insists military action "is out of the question" unless United Nations gives green light". Who is still backing the intervention ?

[scrim 1]

In some regions such 'human rights blah blah' talks mean weakness and excuse to punch/rob/steal etc. The more strong, cunning and impudent you are - the more rights you have.

Yeah, you've clearly not understood the concept of human rights I see.

[Rovka 14]

I was thinking, maybe we should get rid of Human Rights, and replace it by Human Responsibilities.. Anyone who misbehaves on a UN/globally acceptable level of society rules gets punished strictly by pre-arranged amount of time in jail. Jails which are places of initial unhappiness, but in the end workable by slowly increasing the rights along with responsibilities prisoners have according to the Glenn Mills doctrine. (You have to litterally earn everything, from a plate, to a fork, from amounts of toiletpaper to a matras, etc. etc.)

Ofcourse, some criminals are war-veterans going nuts, not being able to adapt to our peace-time society anymore, but if legal like former Srebrenica event Dutch UN soldiers, those should be hospitalized in special pensions paid by society to keep them mentally healthy.. Or the alternative would be humane execution.. You know for some people who'd seen and endured the worst that would be best if they themselves agree with it by voluntarily wanting to give up their lives in a least harmful way. Why not? That's also liberal thinking, be and let be for that matter.

As for my own country, right now the Dutch government at last is trying to get a law into effect which is aimed to do the following: If you fight against any legal foreign power, without the Dutch government's backing, you're going to be marked as a war criminal: Thus if the law comes into effect, then going to fight in Syria or any other hotbed, you'll will be losing your Dutch nationality because of it. And I say that's about time! Then justice can be dealt out swiftly, by removing those returning war criminals from our collective (relatively safe) society's home-soil. It is as Christ had predicted: Those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Or those who wage war, stay in the war until they're dead. So all in all, it's better to not wage war, neither ours or our government's (provoked) wars abroad. It's a collective Human Duty to keep peace where possible, but not at all costs like it costing our lives by doing nothing. Best of all is this: Sometimes they give war, and nobody shows up. That's what I like to see, some civil disobiedience when war is ordered by the government mingling in business that's not ours to tend to. (like Syria, intervention prolongs the war, it won't stop it, for sectarian violence is only temporarily halted to fight a common enemy.)

Edited September 2, 2013 by Thani '82

[scrim 1]

Yeah, let's euthanise people with mental problems so they can't pose a threat to our superior race... I mean, our glorious Vaterland... I mean, our society. Oh gee, that would be wonderful, wouldn't it? Actually, I think someone's already tried that.

Seriously, wtf? Do you have any respect for, eh, human life? How messed up are you to actually think like that?

And yeah right, telling Assad that he will spend a number of years in jail because he's been slaughtering civvies like it's cool couldn't possibly result in anything else than him coming peacefully, right? Sort of like with all other dictators, despots and other cruel, criminal rulers ever. They always come peacefully once asked to stop, right?

Do you even know how the human rights (theoretically) work? Breaking them already means you are liable to be prosecuted and sentenced to serve time in jail.

Edited September 2, 2013 by scrim

[Rovka 14]

I do not respect despots their lives, where those had ruïned that of many others. I still haven't seen Cheney and Bush jr. sentenced to prison by the International Court of Justice for warcrimes committed in Iraq and Afghanistan wars, under the banner of fighting terrorism.. Aka feeding the weapons industry, and having a cash-flow go around by major banks lending money to the government to wage war far abroad, or closer to home.

My suggestion is to put culprits like George W. Bush on par with bandits like the late Slobodan Milosevic (Serbia) for example. Both were presidents of a legal nation, but waged genocide abroad! (the former in Afghanistan and Iraq, the latter in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo.) But if there's going to be a judgement on life, one thing is certain: We can't escape the ultimate death penalty: Death itself. That's rights for us: Some a bit more then others or so it seems. But very selective to say the least.

I have yet to see the first US president or one of his sub-employees in power to be put to trial before the International Court of Justice. So true justice doesn't excist, and evil people still walk at large. It's not Always as far away from home as one would think. Iraq had a case of WP-munitions being used on Fallujah, and shady run-gunning contractors (Blackwater, etc.) put into the fray called Iraq by US government decree. How is that for warcrimes? Contractors are not held responsible for what they did, because they're not soldiers.

As for Syria, I hope the US stays out of it as much as they can, let the UN take a look at who did what, and then decide what options are on the table. I assume China and Russia won't veto the conclusion of the current investigation that's going on. Or else their intentions by backing Assad or the Rebels, or -- mind you, both! Penny wise they are, so all sides are selling weapons, in past or present without foresight that it may lash back at a later date in time... Aren't those warcrimes waged by decision of many past or current politicians? Hold them responsible for breaching human rights, not me. I haven't sold anyone a weapon, I haven't killed a human, nor animal for that part. So why would you disagree with me, over those Human Rights of yours? What about helpless animals then? They too suffer during war, and they can't talk about it like we humans can. So who's more in need? I keep on saying let that transform into Responsibilities for both man and beast alike (people taking good care of animals worldwide, for they're the biggest group of "silent" victims on the globe.) and then we talk. Ofcourse all people to the same level of credibility be it good or bad, with equally fitting punishment dealt to those who willfully do harm to others be it man or beast. How unfair does that sound to you Scrim? Because that was what I meant to say.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Thani '82

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

My suggestion is to put culprits like George W. Bush on par with bandits like the late Slobodan Milosevic (Serbia) for example. Both were presidents of a legal nation' date=' but waged genocide abroad! (the former in Afghanistan and Iraq, the latter in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo.)[/quote']

You do realise that most of the civilian deaths in both Afghanistan and Iraq were cause by insurgents, sectarian violence, crime etc and not coalition forces?

If you look at UN statistics for Afghanistan the proportion of civilians killed by the Taliban rises year on year to 79.12% in 2012 - causes: IEDs, Targeted Killings, Suicide Bombers. If you are going to accuse and prosecute someone for genocide you require proof - the data and facts don't support it. The number of targeted killings by the Taliban is significant and increasing - 698 in 2012 (270 in 2009). They are shooting children for going to school and health workers for giving vaccinations, yet no one says anything about it.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/aug/10/afghanistan-civilian-casualties-statistics#data

Taliban Causes Most Civilian Deaths in Afghanistan, U.N. Says

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/world/asia/10afghanistan.html?_r=0

You could probably make a point about incompetent administration of Iraq and certain war crimes? It took them an awfully long time to admit that they required more troops to reduce sectarian violence and crime.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[Rovka 14]

Thanks for sharing the information Mattar. And yes I was aware of that sectarian violence causing the most casualties.. But why exactly is the Arab world such a hotbed for utter violence, can anyone tell me that? All I know is that "those people" are more hot-tempered and fiery or call it passionate if you will about their dominant religion being the overall islamic ideology. But what is the exact cause to that? The tribal like structure of their family clans? The fact that they walk on eggs so to speak? (constant on edge) That and many more of such questions I wonder about.

But what bothers me, is those immigrants that come from such countries who're simply unwilling to adapt to local language and our culture and traditions, whilst our countries play welcoming host to the likes of those. By allowing for immigrant import into our nations, eventually the violence will spill over, for feuds are fought on newfound lands that they now call home. They even transform neighbourhoods in local no-go areas for gays, elderlies, and free-minded people thinking differently to their own norms and subcultural traditions.

Now mind you, I don't blame the individual for seeking refuge from war here, but when the unrest is over, they have to return back to their home countries they originate from. Also in order to help rebuild their destroyed nations.

Not only could their own system use a revamp into something more modern then the tribal factions fighting amongst themselves until the last man stands, but ours could make use of something new aswell. For our own system isn't perfect either! Far from it even..

What use is it to report massacres and killings if everybody grows numb of war, whilst watching rotting skeletons on TV whilst eating their supper in a state of carelessness for other people's misery? Well? Can you tell me the use, other then that being mere sensation hunger by the media, and people in general?

It seems to look like the whole Middle East is going to be a beta-patch for war-toys coming down the line.. But like Libya and Algeria plus Egypt before it, Syria too proves that cities are hard fought over, being the predominant areas of where wars are fought..

Is that why European armies had shrunk in size, to allow for war-hungry immigrant individuals to freely walk accross the borders, to play host for new terrorist cells? We the Dutch army don't even have tanks anymore! But we are going to aquire expensive JSF planes..

And meanwhile in former Yugoslavia a F-117 Nighthawk was shot out of the air by advanced Serbian SAM system, so stealth is a buzzword and a practical joke played to sell expensive toys on loan lend by bankiers to pay for the gimmicky wanna-have tool of destruction.

And an old AK rifle still beats a modern technological less durable weapon like the M4 rifle with all its advanced piccatiny-rail addons. So the west can gear up for war all they want, but they lack the amount of tools in their stocks, aswell as the manpower to use it in greater numbers then any potential enemy they come to fight at home or abroad.. The Dutch still have old nukes stored at Volkel AFB in the Netherlands, but those only operate on order of the US senate and congress' approval. So infact the Netherlands are a US dependance on having a status of Nuclear power, though extremely limited by number of warheads still operable, let alone the cruise-missiles to transport them likely not being inplace.. And nobody objects to that anymore ever since the late 1980's mass demonstrations. So we "own" WMD's and our government had blamed Saddam whilst they (British and Americans) have found nothing! Where did all those gas-cannisters go? Smuggled over the border to Syria perhaps?

Meanwhile: UNHCR reports 2 million Syrians have fled into neighbouring countries like Turkey, Lebanon, and even Iraq. Plus 4.73 million more are on the run within Syria proper.. And the Syrian FSA opposition still waits for a big load of US weaponry that Obama had promised them 3 months ago. And Russia is said to supply Assad's army with new (advanced) weaponry.. Obama and US government are affraid that supplied US weaponry falls in extremists' hands (Afghanistan Syndrome), where its meant for the Free Syrian Army, and not for Al Quaeda, Al Nusra and the sorts which are fighting on the rebels' side against Assad's currently legitimate government forces.

Now I cannot help but think of this, that the US along with Russia should support Assad for the quickest return to relative peace in the country. Or alternatively the FSA should shun and ban, and eliminate ties with Al Nusra/Al Quaeda and other extremists groups, and become a true Syrian-only effort, instead of a proxy war of foreign terrorists influx fighting, murdering, looting and plundering about on their soil. I come to think of the terrorists being actually used by covert ops organisations as pit-wolves doing all the dirty fighting for them.. The CIA made use of Al Quaeda's services in fighting the Russians before, so why won't they do so now? And who is to say the Cold War is over? Only the threats have changed, but the pin-pricks and proxy-war system is the same. Armies are being replaced with terrorists, successive states are replaced for failed states, and local population loses limited freedoms they had under the dictatorship, even as it is most limiting to our western liberal views for no freedom at all under the new ruling class being the radicals and loonies replacing the old system with something more rotten..

Edited September 3, 2013 by Thani '82

[ProfTournesol 956]

According to TV channels, Russia would have detected two ballistic missiles fired in the Mediterranean see.

[bangtail 0]

According to TV channels, Russia would have detected two ballistic missiles fired in the Mediterranean see.

Apparently, they both dropped into the sea.

[Tonci87 163]

Apparently they came down somewhere along the coast, WTF is going on there?