Syria - What should we do if anything?

[mrcash2009 0]

George Galloway says Israel had a meeting with Al-Qaeda and gave them some weapons to use along with the required training.

Isnt that "arming the rebels to fight Assad" ? :)

[Dwarden 1124]

I'm not sure how you dream this up Dwarden but after reading through what you have to say on this my advice is to stay off the drugs kiddo.

i suggest you change your rhetoric, also i don't take drugs and i'm more likely older than you ...

[Deadfast 43]

I'm not sure how you dream this up Dwarden but after reading through what you have to say on this my advice is to stay off the drugs kiddo.

And my advice is to to tone it down or bad things will start happening. If you cannot argue without lowering yourself to personal attacks I would suggest you stop trying to argue.

The same applies to everybody by the way.

[Degman 73]

Ante Kotromanović, croatian minister of defence, dediced to give NATO whole croatian battalion (500 soldiers) in case of intervention in Syria. This is exacly what I predicted on same creating of that battalion. (battalion's job is to support NATO and it's allies's operations in whole world)

[jefferspang 2]

Chemical missile similar to the remains found by the UN fired by plain-clothed operators

Again hard to tell which side fired it so I will remain neutral in regards to this issue.

3rg9NGdtfOo

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

We already had that video in post #864, it's an Iranian Falaq-2 type launcher with a modified Grad rocket. - There are many people in uniform there, the locals say the people in camo with red berets are presidential guard possibly assisted by Iranian Revolutionary Guards/Hezbollah or people from the SSRC. It's said to be from an area at the edge of Mazzeh Military Airport which is controlled by Assad not far from the Presidential Palace - the traffic noise does indicate an adjacent dual carriageway which fits the stated location. I doub't it's a chemical attack, the rockets have been fired by the Government Forces many times and remains can be found all over Eastern Damascus, Homs and Aleppo, the targets are exclusively rebel held areas. I described what that munition is and who developed it on the previous page, it's a kind of advanced IRAM, :

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?135597-Syria-What-should-we-do-if-anything&p=2483953&viewfull=1#post2483953

Someone has kindly done a study on it here:

http://rogueadventurer.com/2013/08/29/alleged-cw-munitions-in-syria-fired-from-iranian-falaq-2-type-launchers/

[.Taffy 10]

Quick question regarding the resolution vote in the British Parliament. Does anyone know if there is some way of seeing which MPs voted for and against the resolution?

[mrcash2009 0]

Ive been amazed at the media in the last day ref Britain vote decision, lots of "special relationship" nonsense & even a underlying hint of with us against us name calling & "looking weaker on the world stage" drivvel, I dont think ive seen something so childish in some time, amazing & not surprising at once.

Also floating on the oposite side of the coin is from a freelance reporter Dale Gavlak (her details are base of article and google search shows BBC and other articles posted by her over many subjects) who as added an article here:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses-of-gas-attack-say-saudis-supplied-rebels-with-chemical-weapons/168135/

Syrians In Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack

I seriously doubt at this stage mainstream will touch it with a barge pole, although for the sake of non bias and all sides this is the article to make of as you wish, all things need to be clarified obviously.

Edited August 31, 2013 by mrcash2009

[ProfTournesol 956]

Obama to seek Congress vote on Syria military action

[Colossus 2]

Obama to seek Congress vote on Syria military action - BBC News

US President Barack Obama says he is to seek Congressional authorisation for military operations against Syria.

If history tells us anything chances are that this is going to come back and bite them in the ass some day, one way or another. :bored:

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Quick question regarding the resolution vote in the British Parliament. Does anyone know if there is some way of seeing which MPs voted for and against the resolution?

Yep:

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2013-08-29&number=70&display=allvotes

Overview of the vote:

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2013-08-29&number=70

[.Taffy 10]

Yep:

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2013-08-29&number=70&display=allvotes

Overview of the vote:

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2013-08-29&number=70

That's great thanks! :)

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

That's great thanks! :)

One thing you might also like is the full text of the motion, it's useful to know what they were actually voting for. Interesting to note that both the motion and the ammendment failed:

Motion Ayes 272, Noes 285:

CORRIGENDUM

Thursday 29 August 2013

Page 1 of 2

The following is the corrected text of the Motion in the name of the Prime Minister relating to Syria and the Use of Chemical Weapons which stands on today’s Order Paper. The words underlined were omitted in error from the text of the Motion as tabled yesterday.

2.SYRIA AND THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS

The Prime Minister

The Deputy Prime Minister

Secretary William Hague

Secretary Theresa May

Secretary Philip Hammond

Mr Dominic Grieve

That this House:

Deplores the use of chemical weapons in Syria on 21 August 2013 by the Assad regime, which caused hundreds of deaths and thousands of injuries of Syrian civilians;

Recalls the importance of upholding the worldwide prohibition on the use of chemicalweapons under international law;

Agrees that a strong humanitarian response is required from the international community and that this may, if necessary, require military action that is legal, proportionate and focused on saving lives by preventing and deterring further use of Syria’s chemical weapons;

Notes the failure of the United Nations Security Council over the last two years to take united action in response to the Syrian crisis;

Notes that the use of chemical weapons is a war crime under customary law and a crime against humanity, and that the principle of humanitarian intervention provides a sound legal basis for taking action;

Notes the wide international support for such a response, including the statement from the Arab League on 27 August which calls on the international community, represented in the United Nations Security Council, to “overcome internal disagreements and take action against those who committed this crime, for which the Syrian regime is responsibleâ€;

Believes, in spite of the difficulties at the United Nations, that a United Nations process must be followed as far as possible to ensure the maximum legitimacy for any such action;

Therefore welcomes the work of the United Nations investigating team currently in Damascus, and, whilst noting that the team’s mandate is to confirm whether chemical weapons were used and not to apportion blame, agrees that the United Nations Secretary General should ensure a briefing to the United Nations Security Council immediately upon the completion of the team’s initial mission;

Labour Ammendment Ayes 220, Noes 332.:

I beg to move manuscript amendment (b), leave out from ‘House’ to end and add-

(This House) expresses its revulsion at the killing of hundreds of civilians in Ghutah, Syria on 21 August 2013; believes that this was a moral outrage; recalls the importance of upholding the worldwide prohibition on the use of chemical weapons; makes clear that the use of chemical weapons is a grave breach of international law; agrees with the UN Secretary General that the UN weapons inspectors must be able to report to the UN Security Council and that the Security Council must live up to its responsibilities to protect civilians; supports steps to provide humanitarian protection to the people of Syria but will only support military action involving UK forces if and when the following conditions have been met:

The UN weapons inspectors, upon the conclusion of their mission in the Eastern Ghutah, being given the necessary opportunity to make a report to the Security Council on the evidence and their findings, and confirmation by them that chemical weapons have been used in Syria;

The production of compelling evidence that the Syrian regime was responsible for the use of these weapons;

The UN Security Council having considered and voted on this matter in the light of the reports of the weapons inspectors and the evidence submitted;

There being a clear legal basis in international law for taking collective military action to protect the Syrian people on humanitarian grounds;

That such action must have regard to the potential consequences in the region, and must therefore be legal, proportionate, time-limited and have precise and achievable objectives designed to deter the future use of prohibited chemical weapons in Syria; aan

That the Prime Minister reports further to the House on the achievement of these conditions so that the House can vote on UK participation in such action.

This House further notes that such action relates solely to efforts to deter the use of chemical weapons and does not sanction any wider action in Syria.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[.Taffy 10]

That is interesting, perhaps the Conservative and Lib Dem MPs that voted against Cameron's resolution simply didn't want to rebel twice in one night.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

That is interesting, perhaps the Conservative and Lib Dem MPs that voted against Cameron's resolution simply didn't want to rebel twice in one night.

More complicated than that - if you recorded the debate and watched it through and noted some of the comments by very senior Parliamentarians about the Labour ammendment, it was more a personal message to Ed Miliband about his methods. Behind the scenes he indicated that he would support the government, providing certain conditions were met, they were. Then after Parliament was recalled he changed his mind and conducted a bit of a political ambush. Why did he do that?

Many beleive it was an exercise to save his own skin, 1 Labour Minister resigned over the ammendment and 5 others stated they would follow if Milliband agreed to any intervention in Syria at all, so if you listen to his speech he does much fence sitting, essentially his motion agrees with the governments about intervention but only if further conditions are met:

Edward Miliband:

If people are asking me today to say, “Yes, now, let us take military action,†I am not going to say that, but neither am I going to rule out military action, because we have to proceed on the basis of evidence and the consensus and support that can be built.

Edward Miliband, 1 hour after vote:

Military intervention is now off the agenda for Britain.

Lucky escape, he now avoids confronting his own party on the issue, other MP's find his lack of principle disturbing.

Comments during the debate:

Sir Menzies Campbell:

I have read the motion and Opposition amendment and I believe that both are motivated by the same determination to do what is right and to see that the House endorses everything that is right. However, I have to confess that, even following the most narrow textual analysis, I can find no difference of substance or principle anywhere in the two offerings. That is why I shall support the Government in the Lobby this evening. I very much hope that the Opposition will, too.

Sir Malcolm Rifkind stated

He’s the man who would not take yes for an answer.

Nadhim Zahawi:

Listening to the right hon. Gentleman’s speech, any reasonable human being would assume that he is looking to divide the House for political advantage. What has happened to the national interest?

The unanimous vote against the Labour ammendment was more an indication of the lack of trust which now exists. Going back on your word like that for personal gain is a serious business becuase the other two parties don't feel they can trust what he says now and they will be very careful about how they do business with Labour in the future. If you have kept your eye on the news you will have noticed several MP's and Lords display open disgust for what occurred.

Lord Ashdown:

“In more than 50 years of seeking to serve my country at home and abroad I wake up this morning more depressed, and I have to say, probably more ashamed than I have ever felt.â€

He went on to note the video footage showing the aftermath of a napalm attack on school children in a school playground by a Syrian Airforce jet:

I have seen children burning in video footage this morning and the response from many people in this country is "nothing to do with me."

Edited September 1, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mrcash2009 0]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/britain-sold-nerve-gas-chemicals-2242520

FURIOUS politicians have demanded Prime Minister David Cameron explain why chemical export licences were granted to firms last January – 10 months after the Syrian uprising began.

As always its a source and needs digging deeper as always.

All thats happening now in the political arena is a sway from "who done it" to ... "who cares hes an asshole dont you feel bad for not getting him and in doing so you haven't helped the people"? Plus as its been pointed by UKIP Nigel Farage and lots of others (says it how it is mainly) the power vacuum if they go in and fuck this up royally doesn't solve it for the people they are guilt tripping the public about, even Assad non supporters on the ground arent jumping for joy not knowing what the decision will be or outcome will be. Even if a softly softly focused attempt happens, there is even ore reason for a crusade of "the others" not to get roped in when U.S has it covered, surely.

Also its been said about 2 years of getting rebels to contract the work out, if hes such an ass prior to the chemical who done it debacle then they could have sorted this bad man we are made guilty for to ignore long ago. All political rhetoric and no logic.

If political parties want to jump on the moral high ground then they can sit back down (ashdown for one, im sure hes got the money and lifestyle to buy a few tablets to cheer him up) firmly with everything else that's gone before in the last 13 years or so, lets check the dead bodies and burning people in that too to keep the balance that "both" sides have caused, even with the rebels they are contracting now and what they have done that side of it also.

Its nice to see democracy at work with voting and then getting guilt tripped because you said no, speaks volumes. Let the war mongers cry a river, they try to speak for everyone ("English", "the US", "French" as a whole unit) buts its just ego tennis in the political realm, not for anyone on the ground at either end.

Edited September 1, 2013 by mrcash2009
225

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Old news that, Vince Cable was already questioned about it and has responded with a letter back on 6 September 2012:

Committees on Arms Export ControlsLetter to the Chair of the Committees from the Rt Hon Vince Cable MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

Thank you for your letter of 18 July to the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, requesting further information about export licences to Syria. I am replying as the Minister with statutory authority for strategic export controls and I apologise for the delay in responding.

Chemicals used for industrial/commercial processesâ€â€”two Standard Individual Export Licences (SIEL)

These licences were issued on 17 and 18 January 2012 and authorised the export of dual-use chemicals to a private company for use in industrial processes. The chemicals were sodium fluoride and potassium fluoride.

These chemicals have legitimate commercial uses—for example, sodium fluoride is used in the fluoridation of drinking water and the manufacture of toothpaste; and potassium fluoride has applications in the metallurgical industry and the manufacture of pesticides. However they could also be used as precursor chemicals in the manufacture of chemical weapons which is why they are included on the Australia Group chemical weapons precursors list and are listed in Annex I of Council Regulation 428/2009, meaning a licence is required for their export from the EU.

In these cases the chemicals were to be used for metal finishing of aluminium profiles used for making aluminium showers, windows, etc. Each licence application was assessed against the Consolidated EU and National Arms Export Licensing Criteria, including whether there was a clear risk that they might be used for internal repression or be diverted for such an end-use. The licences were granted because at the time there were no grounds for refusal.

Subsequently, the European Union imposed new sanctions on Syria via Council Regulation (EU) No 509/2012 which came into force on 17 June 2012. The sanctions included prohibitions on the sale, supply, transfer or export of certain dual-use items and chemicals (including sodium fluoride and potassium fluoride) which might be used for internal repression or in the manufacture of items which might be used for internal repression. As a result, these licences were revoked on 30 July 2012.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmquad/205/205we19.htm

Bizarre indeed! However, reading the guidance on sanctions it appears there is a Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP) within the EU. So Vince Cable may not have been able to act to prevent this until the EU changed it's policy? Always good to know things are still working well within the EU, ROFL.

PS the person in charge of all that in the EU is Catherine Ashton, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, a controversial appointment and her wiki entry makes interesting reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Ashton

Edited September 1, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[wipman 1]

Hi, i think that the best solution at this point... will be an intervention for Bashard Al Ashad, againist the so called "rebels"; in exchange for some political reforms, like allow other political partys, freedom of vote and expression and that kind of things. I don't know about you... but when i see those islamo-faszists yelling "allahu akbar", they don't inspire me any confidence, on their values, views and goals.

The day that the Mushlim Brothers Brotherhood won the elections on Egypt, to celebrate it... they'd set up on fire the science library of the Cairo's university; is this the people, their point of view..!! the one that you want to be help on an armed conflict!?. I don't. I think that this kind of theological point of view goes againist any logic and the common wealth and shouldn't be allowed and much less allow it to spray arround, let 'em control countrys and have access to weapons of any kind.

If they were worryed about the good of the syrian people... they should make an agreement with Al Ashad and exchange military aid for "democratic changes". Let's C ya

[scrim 1]

Yeah, as I've said a few times now, the time window we had to make a positive difference by letting hell loose on the regime has well passed. If we'd started bombing about 2 years ago, and then controlled the democratic process with nothing less than an iron fist, something good could've come of it, a 3rd Middle Eastern democracy. Now though, we'd essentially just enable another pre-2001 Afghanistan close to home. Screw that, I'd prefer the regime over that.

[walker 0]

Hi all

It appears the story about the perpertrators of the Syrian chemical weapon incedent may not be as clear cut as was being purported by some.

EXCLUSIVE: Syrians In Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack

Rebels and local residents in Ghouta accuse Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan of providing chemical weapons to an al-Qaida linked rebel group.

By Dale Gavlak and Yahya Ababneh | August 29, 2013

Ghouta, Syria — As the machinery for a U.S.-led military intervention in Syria gathers pace following last week’s chemical weapons attack, the U.S. and its allies may be targeting the wrong culprit.

Interviews with people in Damascus and Ghouta, a suburb of the Syrian capital, where the humanitarian agency Doctors Without Borders said at least 355 people had died last week from what it believed to be a neurotoxic agent, appear to indicate as much.

The U.S., Britain, and France as well as the Arab League have accused the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad for carrying out the chemical weapons attack, which mainly targeted civilians. U.S. warships are stationed in the Mediterranean Sea to launch military strikes against Syria in punishment for carrying out a massive chemical weapons attack. The U.S. and others are not interested in examining any contrary evidence, with U.S Secretary of State John Kerry saying Monday that Assad’s guilt was “a judgment … already clear to the world.â€...

http://www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses-of-gas-attack-say-saudis-supplied-rebels-with-chemical-weapons/168135/

As always follow the link to the original text in full

Several US sources are labeling it a false flag operation.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/502830/20130901/pat-buchanan-syria-chemical-false-flag-saudi.htm

Kind Regards walker

Edited September 1, 2013 by walker

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Well that's an interesting conspiracy theory - please tell us more about the female fighters of Al-Qaeda/Jabhat al-Nusra, I don't think we have heard enough about them. Thank goodness there was one available to confirm the false flag operation. Infowars is particularly impressed with it.

You do realise that's an exclusive from a new online news agency with 20 staff, none of them were in the country and didn't get this 1st hand? It's owner/editor is 25 years old.....

[Q5CA 10]

We shouldn't "DO" anything. We don't need to enter this war just so America can declare war against Iran.

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

@Matter- What do you know about these female fighters? and for a small suggestion,you might want to read some stuff at infowars because its not how they bring it but what they bring out! and dont focus on them only because their not the only ones thats say this is a false-flag,

But i keep saying this- What future will be left for the syrian ppl after assad is gone? same like Iraq,libya,egypte,...! UN reported yesterday 800 people got killed in Iraq in august alone, but hey they got their democracy right.!?

[spooky lynx 73]

Some of you say about the democracy at Middle East... Are you sure it is possible while most of the population there still has clan-based relations? Unfortunately dictatorship is the only possible solution now, because only dictator may really keep constant balance between different clans, tribes and religions there, like Qaddafi (may he rest in peace) did. Either local dictator shoul do this or... colonial administration. Maybe after some decades Middle East society will transform itself to something similar to current European one.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

@Spoetnik - the famous female fighters of Al-Qaeda are not easily spotted due to the fake beards, however, they do exist because Al-Qaeda is well known for it's equal opportunity policy and anti-descrimination fatwas so the story highlighted by Walker must be true. It's certainly very plausible that female combatants carried chemical weapons on their backs into Syria and received equal pay from Saudi Arabia suppliers. Thank goodness one of them was able to witness the event and tell her story. Infowars and mint press does it again!

@Spooky - I don't think I have ever seen anyone do a better job of proving themselves not to be a racial bigot, congratulations on your vision and enlightenment. A well stated case there.