Syria - What should we do if anything?

[oxmox 73]

Thank you

[Jastreb 69]

Right EU does what big bro says we know that. There is no UN any kind of embargo on Syria to date. Not even a resolution. Veto remember?

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1087798843&type=RESOURCES

SO whats this is EU older than UN? Egg older than hen? Im sure its just law kinda thing issue, everyone know Russia is supplying Syria with weapons, I think my parrot can spell that one, but what actually Turkey tries to do all of the sudden? Hm....cant tell

Lets not mention how much weapons and who to whom has supplied to date into Syria? Whos arming those Freedom so called fighters? Tricky...

Edited October 12, 2012 by _MaSSive

[oxmox 73]

In the latest news I did read, russia declared there were no weapons on this plane but parts for radar stations. Well at the end Turkey has the air supremacy like every other country but in general the Turkey shouldnt be that hotheaded if they really dont want to widen the conflict. News reported that turkish jets did flank syrian fighters at the boarder in the last hours.It is clear that Turkey backs the syrian rebels and this is actually not really new. Furthermore, what about the investigations when it comes to several mortar hits inside Turkey...

Edited October 13, 2012 by oxmox

[maturin 12]

Anti-personnel cluster bombs used:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/10/20121014103651157108.html

Cluster weapons are like chemical and biological weapons. Using them is a signal that you never intend to live in peace with the population of the conflict zones, that you accept the idea of killing their children for years to come. It means you will no longer admit them as citizens of your country. No Western machinations are needed to make Syria disintegrate.

[Tonci87 163]

Anti-personnel cluster bombs used:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/10/20121014103651157108.html

Cluster weapons are like chemical and biological weapons. Using them is a signal that you never intend to live in peace with the population of the conflict zones, that you accept the idea of killing their children for years to come. It means you will no longer admit them as citizens of your country. No Western machinations are needed to make Syria disintegrate.

Using cluster bombs in populated areas? That´s desperate...

[spooky lynx 73]

Let's read this article a bit carefully.

At first, all that is said by AJ must be taken with the grain of salt.

The bombs were dropped from planes and helicopters, with many of the strikes taking place near the main north-south highway running through the northwestern town of Maarat al-Numan, HRW said in a report released on Sunday.

Strikes taking place near. But not exactly at the town. BTW... Why there's no photo or video provided with the report?

HRW previously reported Syrian use of cluster bombs, which have been banned by most countries, in July and August but the renewed strikes indicate the government's determination to regain strategic control in the northwest.

Cluster bombs banned by most countries? Didn't know CBU series is banned;)

[maturin 12]

Let's read this article a bit carefully.

BTW... Why there's no photo or video provided with the report?

The only reason I posted the article is because it was accompanied by a video showing submunitions actually detonating in front of civilian housing (you can hear children screaming), plus pictures of RBK-250s (I think) on the ground. Don't know why you can't see it.

[-Paladin- 10]

Let's read this article a bit carefully.

At first, all that is said by AJ must be taken with the grain of salt.

Strikes taking place near. But not exactly at the town. BTW... Why there's no photo or video provided with the report?

Cluster bombs banned by most countries? Didn't know CBU series is banned;)

mines too and barbwire too or a special kind of barbwire used by military, spring guns too war also killing civilians is too raping and and and.

[spooky lynx 73]

The only reason I posted the article is because it was accompanied by a video showing submunitions actually detonating in front of civilian housing (you can hear children screaming), plus pictures of RBK-250s (I think) on the ground. Don't know why you can't see it.

Watched video in HD again and didn't notice any exact detonation. Will watch it one more time with sound on (I'm at work for most of time and don't have any speakers or headphones unfortunately). Then, those submunitions and RBK hull seem to be brought there - because there's no craters. Those bomblets fall with rather big speed and they must leave a crater after impact. Also bomblets that are shown on the video are anti-tank HEAT PTAB-2,5 munitions - they aren't effective against any soft targets.

[Jastreb 69]

Anti-personnel cluster bombs used:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/10/20121014103651157108.html

Cluster weapons are like chemical and biological weapons. Using them is a signal that you never intend to live in peace with the population of the conflict zones, that you accept the idea of killing their children for years to come. It means you will no longer admit them as citizens of your country. No Western machinations are needed to make Syria disintegrate.

In their campaign so called Merciful Angel in 1999 against Yugoslavia, Nato used cluster bombs in high populated areas, and strikes were done in the middle of the day, clearly knowing it will kill A LOT of civilians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_bombing_of_Ni%C5%A1

They used to call it a mistake, and people killed are collateral damage...wont say no more.

[Rovka 14]

War always has two faces, no loser, no winner, but the War Industries getting them paychecks and contracts... That's what it's all about: Getting rid of your surplus arsenal, and gaining some money by doing it this way. It's been done before, nothing new.

[maturin 12]

Also bomblets that are shown on the video are anti-tank HEAT PTAB-2,5 munitions - they aren't effective against any soft targets.

That's missing the point. A HEAT submunition still blows off your leg when you step on it playing soccer in five years time. That's the whole reason for cluster weapon bans.

Russia dropped a cluster bomb on Gori town center. The U.S. used cluster weapons in Afghanistan. Ghaddafi shot DPICM at hospitals in Misrata.

The Syrian regime is more indiscriminate than any of these prior well-documented examples. Your attempt to cast doubt on every shred of evidence that is convenient for your rhetorical opponents seems pointless, with little basis in reality.

[Jastreb 69]

RBK-500-PTAB: x268 PTAB-1M is anti armor type bomb its not anti personel, you can see details about it on link below.

http://www.harpoondatabases.com/encyclopedia/Entry2809.aspx

RBK-500-PTAB: x268 PTAB-1M

PTAB-1M: 2lbs, 1 ½â€x8â€, HEAT anti-tank (will penetrate 9†of mild steel). Fin-stabilized during fall. If the PTAB-1 does not strike armour, it explodes on it’s own after 20-40 seconds on the ground.

Plus they are very easy to spot and as you can see on the video shown, they do not detonate as BLU type does. Guess is that if it does not detonate in this 20-40 sec time frame they will remain inactive and can be easily disposed of.

Interesting thing is that Syria is not listed as user of these types of bombs in this article.

[spooky lynx 73]

That's missing the point. A HEAT submunition still blows off your leg when you step on it playing soccer in five years time. That's the whole reason for cluster weapon bans.

Nope. Such small HEAT projectile can not bring much damage and blow leg or hand.

Russia dropped a cluster bomb on Gori town center. The U.S. used cluster weapons in Afghanistan. Ghaddafi shot DPICM at hospitals in Misrata.

Using cluster munitions against buildings is useless and is waste of money. It will bring significant damage neither to houses nor to those who hide in them. They are effective only against some weak shelters or somebody 'in the open field'. So please leave that fairytales about bad boyz shooting cluster shells at hospitals for the children.

The Syrian regime is more indiscriminate than any of these prior well-documented examples. Your attempt to cast doubt on every shred of evidence that is convenient for your rhetorical opponents seems pointless, with little basis in reality.

Documented examples? Like those depicting Russian tanks advancing Gori in 8th of august?;)

[Tonci87 163]

Nope. Such small HEAT projectile can not bring much damage and blow leg or hand.

Sorry but this is nonsense. You cleary have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[spooky lynx 73]

Sorry but this is nonsense. You cleary have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

These projectiles are similar to RKG-3 hand grenades. And RKG may be thrown from near the vehicle you are try to hit.

[Tonci87 163]

And it will still blow off your hand if you handle it wrong.

[spooky lynx 73]

And it will still blow off your hand if you handle it wrong.

I'd say it will burn the skin, maybe cut some fingers. It's not HE-FRAG grenade or RPG-like projectile with enough explosives inside. I've seen a man that lost his hand while trying to dispose RPG-18 while being drunken, but it has much more heavy warhead than RKG.

[i76 1]

American backed insurgents to topple a leader/government that does not submit to US bully foreign policy... for than the US will murder.

All the recent wars have not been waged for democracy or even to ensure BP and Exxon-Mobil oil drilling rights (thats just a bonus) its all about ensuring 'the dollar' hegemony

As long as the dollar remains the world currency, the US can continue to pay its bills by simply printing more money. But once the world no longer accepts the dollar as world reserve currency, the US will no longer be able to continue to pay its way or to fund its wars by relying on what would then be a relatively valueless paper currency.

Learn and understand why the Iraq war was really fought, why Gaddafi was murdered... its because Iraq was going to move from the US dollar to the Euro in oil trading, Gaddafi was going to move to a gold standard.

Its the elite banking families that run this world (rothchild, rockefella, morgan, wlaburg etc) ... you are given the illusion of democracy and freedom but you and I are all slaves.

If Americans had democracy they would be choosing between Barack Obama and Ron Paul.... so much fraud and rule breaking in the battle of Republicans... Romney did not win

Research the real history... the system we live in is completely manipulated and rigged, you want to control the world you would want to control the most powerful military thugs... America.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Blablabla...is there any oil in Syria ?

[NoRailgunner 0]

One can say the civil war in Syria is a proxy war between Sunnis and Shiites (Saudi Arabia and Iran). Didn't Karl Marx said that "Religion is the opium of the people"? How to get people accept, tolerate and respect each other if they are filled with religious and fanatical hate? How many people got killed just because they didn't fit into someone's world view??

[maturin 12]

I'd say it will burn the skin, maybe cut some fingers.

Uh, huh. Russians make magic explosives that cut through over 100mm of steel armor plate but bounce off human skin with light damage.

Documented examples? Like those depicting Russian tanks advancing Gori in 8th of august?

The existence of wartime propaganda doesn't allow you to doubt all facts. Ask the survivors of the team of journalists who were hit by it. "Human Rights Watch (HRW), an international rights group, accused Russia of indiscriminately deploying cluster bombs in civilian areas during the 2008 conflict. HRW said that Russian aircraft had dropped RBK-250 cluster bombs, each containing 30 PTAB 2.5M submunitions or "bomblets" in the center of Gori on August 12, killing at least eight civilians and injuring dozens more." HRW being, of course, the organization (with plenty of Russians on staff in the region), the organization that exposed most of the Georgian war crimes in 2008.

Using cluster munitions against buildings is useless and is waste of money. It will bring significant damage neither to houses nor to those who hide in them. They are effective only against some weak shelters or somebody 'in the open field'. So please leave that fairytales about bad boyz shooting cluster shells at hospitals for the children.

Ghaddafi used DPICM in Misrata; that's a fact. And stop it with your excessively narrow thinking. Cluster munitions are a great way to douse an entire block of houses or intersection with ordinance, covering ground that a single HE shell never could. The munitions will fall between the gaps to hit multiple streets and courtyards, suppressing movement around an entire large building like a hospital. Such large municipal structures are also covered with windows. All the patient's rooms are exposed to the street, as are vulnerable implements like OXYGEN tanks. Targeting a hospital with DPICM would seriously endanger people inside and prevent others from approaching it safely.

But I know you will keep on pretending that facts and documentation don't exist, so that Russia and its geopolitical allies are perfectly moral, while the West is completely evil. It's not like both are flawed governments that sometimes use excessive force and disregard inconvenient moral and legal standards or anything... It's often said that Russians see shades of grey, but you argue like a mindless, jingoistic American meathead.

Edited October 17, 2012 by maturin

[ProfTournesol 956]

One can say the civil war in Syria is a proxy war between Sunnis and Shiites (Saudi Arabia and Iran). Didn't Karl Marx said that "Religion is the opium of the people"? How to get people accept, tolerate and respect each other if they are filled with religious and fanatical hate? How many people got killed just because they didn't fit into someone's world view??

Well i guess it is always much more complex than it seems (contrary to some, well, extremely simplistic and caricatural posts here and there in this topic).

Of course there are lot of religious troubles, but Syria was known as a country where all religious parties were living together without any major troubles, people refering themselves as "Syrian" before "Shiites" or "Sunnis". Which is, for example, very different from what it was in Irak for example.

My point of view is that it was a REAL popular uprising at the beginning (even some Allawites were involved), people being fed up by the very long lasting Assad's family dictatorship. But immediatly after, partly because no external help was possible, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and Iran, found a good way to challenge each others and to play their strategic chess play.

[maturin 12]

And there are christians in there too. Don't simplify.

I'm no friend of Saudi Arabia, but their interests in the fate of Syria aren't nearly so strong as those of the Syrians, who are driving this conflict regardless of foreign involvement. It's a diverse society with with sectarians tensions, and that makes the division of power a bloody problem. In Assad's case, he was keen to turn the conflict into a sectarian one, rather than an antiauthoritarian uprising, because it rallies support behind him.

[Jastreb 69]

Ghaddafi used DPICM in Misrata; that's a fact. And stop it with your excessively narrow thinking. Cluster munitions are a great way to douse an entire block of houses or intersection with ordinance, covering ground that a single HE shell never could. The munitions will fall between the gaps to hit multiple streets and courtyards, suppressing movement around an entire large building like a hospital. Such large municipal structures are also covered with windows. All the patient's rooms are exposed to the street, as are vulnerable implements like OXYGEN tanks. Targeting a hospital with DPICM would seriously endanger people inside and prevent others from approaching it safely.

But I know you will keep on pretending that facts and documentation don't exist, so that Russia and its geopolitical allies are perfectly moral, while the West is completely evil. It's not like both are flawed governments that sometimes use excessive force and disregard inconvenient moral and legal standards or anything... It's often said that Russians see shades of grey, but you argue like a mindless, jingoistic American meathead.

One of the last stands of Gaddafi and his army was a hospital in Sirte. If anyone bombed hospitals with DPICM munitions it was NATO. There are videos proving this fact. Hospital was all the time targeted by cruise missiles and DU/WP ammunition.

Now where are your facts now? Gaddafi is a bad guy but NATO are good guys even though they both did same things, proven both of our claims are right?

At last they say that goal justifies the means? ( not sure if correct in English ?)