MP thoughts

[metalcraze 290]

The thing is making this stuff probably isn't that hard because you have the great RV engine under the hood which does the hard work. And how could you know what is ArmA meant to be? Are you working in BIS?

There's a good interview from 2001 where Marek said that the team wanted to show an authentic war. And the game itself was always like that since then.

It'll attract the kind of people with money (at least I hope so). There could be special forum subsection for them if you're scared.

The whole problem is that you can't cater both to realism crowd and arcade crowd. There's simply no middle ground. The whole problem here is that RV is about an authentic battlefield which is about slow-paced, well thought-out combat. Most people just want to run and gun.

I really still like to believe that it isn't all about money for BIS, but about making a great game in its own niche, which btw they a have a monopoly on now.

As I said it doesn't have to end up like BF3/CoD. Remember, it'll run on RV engine.

I don't understand what exactly do you lack in CQB.

You say this but then you say that it needs "arcadish" stuff without saying exactly what do you want.

[Tonci87 163]

Imho BIS need to rework their mp browser/GUI to be more userfriendly eg:

+ general stuff about server/clan/group and contact info

+ overview window/screen of all addons/mods needed and allowed

+ which gamemode/mission and difficulty is currently set

+ which settings (3rd person on/off, crosshairs on/off...) are active

+ option to download required addons/mods

If one likes to play A3 with a bit more realism he just clicks + joins on "ArmaSim" servers and one who likes it more casual/shooterish he clicks + joins the "ArmArcade" servers. Or is my idea too simple and the A3 MP interface should be hard to use? :)

Guess that A3 will be released with some good SP, Coop and PvP missions just be patient. Meanwhile try + enjoy some more A2OA/CO missions or even try to make one or more. ;)

^That is a usefull post.

Yes the MP Browser could be greatly improved by adding stuff like this.

Its fascinating that always the same people are asking BIS to include Feature X like it can be found in BF or COD or CS or insertrandomfastpacedshooterhere into Arma3.

Please don´t try to turn Arma into another insertmainstreamshooterhere just because you want those features that shooter X has with a greater engagement range, realistic weapons and huge maps.

[antoineflemming 14]

So what's stopping you from playing in some urban area and ignoring the rest of the map?

You'd be surprised but even long coops mostly take place in some localized areas unless it's one of those really really long multi-session operations.

And what makes people think that CQB IRL is closer to CS than it is to ArmA?

Soldiers are trained to react quickly in close quarters environments. The big hindrance to this in ArmA is the lack of fluid animations and transitions. So, no, CQC at this stage is probably closer to something like BF3 than ArmA just because of how fluid the animations are. The other big thing is reaction time vs character reaction time. I know reactions shouldn't be instantaneous, but things such as building clearance should generally be "quick reaction". You don't get that sense from ArmA currently. And clunkiness isn't realistic. Maybe some people equate it with a sense of weight to the character, but that's the speed of the character. Real human movement is generally more fluid. Fluid movement ingame represents the presence of joints, which pivot and rotate.

[katipo66 94]

@Metalcraze go back and read the OPs thread again, or at least the 3rd paragraph... IMHO Arma can cater for everyones tastes, I know because I like both... I like the slow methodical type of gameplay and I also like the more condensed PVP style of gameplay that arma can provide, It would be great to see some servers catering for some of the latter...

@Antoine.. "Clunkiness" is realistic, hold your arms out and drop to one knee, pivot while on one knee, then stand and move around, focus on your movement, is it smooth like in BF/COD?

Edited December 20, 2011 by Katipo66

[metalcraze 290]

Soldiers are trained to react quickly in close quarters environments.

The one reacting in ArmA is the dude with a keyboard and mouse in his hands.

The big hindrance to this in ArmA is the lack of fluid animations and transitions.

At the same time it's the only game which does transitions and animations of your soldier close to RL.

So, no, CQC at this stage is probably closer to something like BF3 than ArmA just because of how fluid the animations are.

There are no fluid animations in BF3. It's just a floating camera that can instantly switch height - it's as simple as coding Y=Y-10 when you press X. Unlike stances which soldier IRL carrying gear can't do.

Fluid != fast and arcadeish.

The other big thing is reaction time vs character reaction time. I know reactions shouldn't be instantaneous, but things such as building clearance should generally be "quick reaction". You don't get that sense from ArmA currently.

Actually you do. Unfortunately in reality reacting with your brain is one thing. Moving your body is another. Especially when this body carries something else.

And clunkiness isn't realistic.

Actually it is. Try carrying a nearly 1m long weapon in your hands that weighs close to 4 kgs and 20 kg of stuff on your front and on your back.

And what's this? Can't do those 360 turns at the speed of BF3 anymore? Weapon hits the walls, doesn't let you strafe?

Reality is clunky.

Maybe some people equate it with a sense of weight to the character, but that's the speed of the character. Real human movement is generally more fluid. Fluid movement ingame represents the presence of joints, which pivot and rotate.

As I've said no game but ArmA tried to do it so far.

In BF3 it is nothing but a camera which has no joints.

Metalcraze go back and read the OPs thread again, or at least the 3rd paragraph... IMHO Arma can cater for everyones tastes, I know because I like both... I like the slow methodical type of gameplay and I also like the more condensed PVP style of gameplay that arma can provide, It would be great to see some servers catering for some of the latter...

I'm not bashing PvP here. With an editor you can make whatever mission you want - it isn't BI or ArmA's fault that most public servers play Warfare and Domi.

You just can't cater to people who like to feel as close to real war as possible from behind their screens, be it PvP or Coop, and to people who like to float through the air scoring dat headshotz 1337 in 1 ms - is what I say.

Edited December 20, 2011 by metalcraze

[batto 17]

@Tonci87: Please stop that. No-one wants to turn ArmA into BF3/CoD. Maps in Rainbow 6: Rogue Spear was pretty small compared to ArmA. Are you trying to say that it was randomfastpacedshooter?

@metalcraze: I'll take some time to reply...

[twisted 128]

why the venom. this is a discussion, and arma2 MP is not what it used to be. i am a mad armaverse fan - massively so. but i know that the way things are now are not the only way they can be. dont feel threatened.

official maps can give a variety of game experiences - that'd be nice to have a few more options on where to go to play mp on maps everyone has. whole maps made for tighter games. and natural choke points are tactical opportunities or liabilities depending on the people playing - that's what can make it so damn good.

and as for running around not knowing where to go? happens far to much to say its solved simply by listening to team leader for all solutions. the suggestions are just that, hoped to be interrogated by the mostly sane community here and read by BIS.

and i agree with the guys saying running around chokepoints is a good thing about aram - i agree which is why i like arma2. but the time lost must be factored in and that becomes interesting as well. and nothing like a good flanking.

bf3 is fluid in its movement and if you want to vault a wall you can quite naturally simply by pushing space bar at the relatively right moment. i do not wish to be an ostrich and say bis work is a-ok and needs only to be put on pedastel as canon - it is not and there are things that can be improved. the awesome pvpanim [sp?] pack was evidence of this.

dig the suggestions of the browser - hope bis notice them. bt i do not ever want amraverse to become bf4. but they do armaverse very damn well with space for improvement.

[dmarkwick 261]

"so often in arma series MP i'd run around lost trying to figure out where the fuck to go. "

Last time I've checked there was Teamspeak 3. Then there's a, no matter how broken, but VoN - which everyone on your team will hear if you'd wish so. And finally there's a simple text chat where you can just ask where to go. Even if it's one of those pseudo-coops like Domination a mere text chat is there.

Alternatively OP can always play on a server with a proper teamwork.

Right. So rather than address what was written, you decided to address what you imagined. I had hoped that maybe you had actual experience of the OP in a MP game doing those actions, seeing as you attribute them to him directly. I'm saddened to see such aggressive and unnecessary argument tactics against something you surely could communicate in a mature logical manner.

[Coffeecat 10]

OMG when will some guys realize that NOT HAVING CHOKE POINTS ON THE DAMN MAP is a good thing! In arma you are not forced into some stupid Choke point were no sane soldier would go IRL. You can even choose to attack the enemy from behind if you don´t mind the extra walking. This is one of Armas big advantages over other FPS

while your right on one side, the other side is that it would hurt nobody if they would release some mp modes & missions where the gameplay is a bit more focused on that. the reason why many people dont touch arma´s mp is cause they experience boredom and unorganized gameplay on public servers.

if there were more gamemodes/official missions with that chokepoints and clear targets, maybe also a bit smaller playable areas there wouldnt be a need to join clans and squads but still have fast and fun teamplay.

i hope we´l see more complex and fun official MP scenarios in Arma3. usermissions are great to have, but to be true, many of them are very bugged and not "easy to play"

[metalcraze 290]

official maps can give a variety of game experiences - that'd be nice to have a few more options on where to go to play mp on maps everyone has. whole maps made for tighter games. and natural choke points are tactical opportunities or liabilities depending on the people playing - that's what can make it so damn good.

BIS uses real world for their maps. Can't get any more natural than that.

My impression is what you recommend is artificial chokepoints - all the time at the same place made just to be choke points. These I don't want to see in a game. There's nothing worse than when a game environment is predictable.

This is what I always liked about BIS games. It's been 2.5 years since ArmA2 came out and I still find places in Chernarus that I can't recognize. Considering that it's a realistic environment where each forest should be looking like another forest it's impressive.

and as for running around not knowing where to go? happens far to much to say its solved simply by listening to team leader for all solutions.

That's because people don't want to listen to what their teamleaders say and then complain. When I was in GOL (sadly defunct) f.e.- we had open games for public gamers.

Each and every single one of these games didn't end well leaving bad impressions for all.

People don't listen, don't want to play as a team and then complain that there's no teamwork because apparently teamwork = seeing where everyone is on the map and respawning close to a squad leader.

bf3 is fluid in its movement and if you want to vault a wall you can quite naturally simply by pushing space bar at the relatively right moment

And you can step over the wall by pushing V at the relatively right moment in ArmA2 too.

Except unlike BF3 you step over with your body, it isn't just a camera that floats over a wall. IRL you can't just vault over the wall btw.

the awesome pvpanim [sp?] pack was evidence of this.

The evidence of what? That you can make completely unrealistic animations which a soldier will never do IRL (like a completely facepalm-y back-to-wall)? BIS horrible weaponless running animation proves this too.

dig the suggestions of the browser - hope bis notice them. bt i do not ever want amraverse to become bf4. but they do armaverse very damn well with space for improvement.

This is what I find so funny about these suggestions. "I don't want ArmA to be BF but hey make it play like BF!"

If BF has so much you like - why not play BF?

[djfluffwug 10]

There are no fluid animations in BF3. It's just a floating camera that can instantly switch height - it's as simple as coding Y=Y-10 when you press X. Unlike stances which soldier IRL carrying gear can't do.

Fluid != fast and arcadeish.

You do realise that a camera is different to an animation right? :p

I think what people are trying to say is that the animations blend well in Battlefield 3. Yes, they are arcadish, but just because they are like this doesn't mean the integrity of the animation blending should be pushed aside.

In ArmA 2, the animations feel slightly robotic and un-human like. I think what people are saying is this could be improved to match the fluidity of blending that a real human has.

Now, before the entire thread gets derailed from its topic, lets move on and try and contribute to the discussion with your own thoughts on what could be improved for MP.

[Minoza 11]

...

And you can step over the wall by pushing V at the relatively right moment in ArmA2 too.

Except unlike BF3 you step over with your body, it isn't just a camera that floats over a wall. IRL you can't just vault over the wall btw.

...

You became quite annoying with this claim since you obviously haven't even played BF3. If you look down at any time you can see your legs... Even when vaulting over you can see your legs. When you move and look down you can see them moving. No it's not just a camera that floats, it is synced with the body. And don't get me wrong, I'm not getting any side at this, I'm just saying you're wrong about this particular thing.

[igneous01 19]

the only problem I see in MP in arma is teamwork - because lets face it it doesnt happen much on public servers. MP gameplay is exceptional when their are teams that are organized and work together, and it crumbles when there isnt. simple as that. There is no need for any small maps or faster animations (which I would like to remind Zargabad, Proving grounds and shapur are all small maps that look good for PVP-yet no one uses them)

The only issue I see is that there is no enforcement on teamplay and communications in MP public servers. And for PVP pub servers there should be. People who are making PVP game modes need to make better objectives that compliment Arma's gameplay, not weaken it.

[metalcraze 290]

Right. So rather than address what was written, you decided to address what you imagined.

No I addressed exactly what was written.

You see the dude blames BIS and ArmA for something they have no control over (a public MP game most likely played with a mission made by one of server owners and people not caring about the teamwork). Why can't I reply in kind? I don't like public MP either (getting friendly killed a lot is really annoying) but I can simply choose to play on another server instead of complaining.

Again the dude could've just asked for directions. If he can type here, he can type in the game too.

There's a whole subforum dedicated to MP squads and servers that play in a whatever style one can imagine (incl. with Kju's less realistic PvP mods). Why not check that forum out?

You do realise that a camera is different to an animation right? :p

In ArmA it isn't. It tied to soldier's eyes. Which I like so very much.

I think what people are trying to say is that the animations blend well in Battlefield 3. Yes, they are arcadish, but just because they are like this doesn't mean the integrity of the animation blending should be pushed aside.

They don't talk about animations at all. They talk about how soldier takes time to turn, how he can't just switch stances in 1ms, how he can't navigate inside houses just as fast as outside where there are no obstacles. But nothing of it is related to animation discussion up until now. If you've seen all complaints is that soldier doesn't float through the air.

In ArmA 2, the animations feel slightly robotic and un-human like. I think what people are saying is this could be improved to match the fluidity of blending that a real human has.

But I completely agree. And I hate it how BIS uses mocap only for some animations, but some are still hand animated (like the above mentioned weaponless animations) which look cringe-worthy.

However it has nothing to do with "zomg in real life you can totally turn around in full gear and score fragz like BF3 soldier"

You became quite annoying with this claim since you obviously haven't even played BF3. If you look down at any time you can see your legs... Even when vaulting over you can see your legs. When you move and look down you can see them moving. No it's not just a camera that floats, it is synced with the body. And don't get me wrong, I'm not getting any side at this, I'm just saying you're wrong about this particular thing.

There's a difference between showind a body and simulating a body.

If you've noticed their animations look nothing like animations on all other soldiers. It's just an eye-candy. They even use exactly the same leg animations from Mirror's Edge. If you switch to third person there (using some tweaks) you will see that the body remains completely motionless and only legs are moving in one place while character moves perfectly straight. If it simulated a body you would have to finish steps and camera would waver like it does in ArmA2.

BF3 also shows you holding a weapon - but it isn't simulated in the game at all nor it is even present there in the same way as you see it on the screen.

Edited December 20, 2011 by metalcraze

[antoineflemming 14]

ArmA does NOT have fluid (not talking about 360 turns. That's not what fluid means) transitions. The ArmA animations are NOT perfect, even though you think so. Otherwise why is BIS revamping the animation system? Clunkiness is not realistic. I've held a rifle multiple times. I've fired a rifle before. Movement IS fluid. I'm sorry you don't recognize it, but ArmA IS known negatively for its clunky animations. BF3's animations are better than ArmA's. The ANT animation system IS known for being one of the most realistic and lifelike animation systems. I'm not talking about first person floating cameras. I'm talking about third person animations which, judging by your comments, I guess you never pay attention to. The thing is, BIS mocapped the animations for things like walking or crouching, but didn't record animations for going between every animation state. Fluid does not mean fast and arcadish. Fluidity is NOT related to speed. It's very related to transitional animations.

No, reacting with brain and body aren't the same, but soldiers are trained so that their brain and body react as closely as possible.

Building off of the comment above, the first person animations are not the same as the third person animations, clearly seen when prone. Third person prone is the correct way to high crawl, but in first person it's not the same. But look at BF3's third person animations, and you'll notice that it's ALL realistic mocapped animation.

And, metalcraze, you must not have served in the military, because if you had you would know that room clearance is supposed to be quick and fast. It's not slow. When you're moving through a building, you're supposed to move fast, as otherwise it becomes a sort of bottleneck.

Camera is not tied to the soldier's eyes. View is too zoomed in to be tied to the eyes. And, discussing this with Pufu on another thread, there's not even a head in the pilot LID to aligned the camera too. I do think that the camera is not close enough to where the eyes would be. As I said to Pufu and he kinda didn't pay attention to, if the camera was tied to the eyes, you should see more of the rifle than what you see. This is not just an FOV thing as if it were then the view wouldn't be distorted when "correcting" the FOV. And I know that the true FOV would be zoomed in, assuming that your distance from the screen is included in the FOV calculation. But I've always felt that the view on your screen was supposed to be the eyes of the characters.

Edited December 20, 2011 by antoineflemming

[batto 17]

My PvP thoughts:

Balance - There are buy zones and everything costs a money.

Game scopes:

Small - á la Counter-Strike

Medium - light vehicles are very expensive

Big - classical ArmA

Game types:

Last hope (aka Conter-Strike) - There is a T team and CT team. Each round T tries to plant a bomb on one of several spots on the map to destroy the objective. The CT team has to prevent bomb explosion.

Capture the flag - There are 2 teams with flag in base. The goal is to take enemy flag and take it to your flag in your base to gather up score. Your flag must not be taken. Player respawn in base or near the middle if their flag is stolen.

Key hunt - There are 2 or more teams and one player of each team holds a key. The goal is to collect the keys of the other teams and gather up the score. Keys emit radio signal. Players respawn in base.

Victory is achieved by points or time-limit. Realism should stay. These game types probably doesn't make sense IRL.

@metalcraze: No. I'll not go play it in BF3 because I want bullet drop... You said that BIS has monopoly. Well maybe it's time to take it further...

Edited December 20, 2011 by batto

[metalcraze 290]

The ArmA animations are NOT perfect, even though you think so.

How about what I say and not guessing what I think?

I agree that animations should be more life-like. But making them more lifelike will not give you a millimeter control over the soldier - it's the opposite. You can't just get your foot up doing a step and freeze in one place like you are still standing on both.

I've held a rifle multiple times. I've fired a rifle before. Movement IS fluid.

I also had to crawl with a rifle, it wasn't floating through the air together with me like during BF3's crawling.

Was this movement fluid with a 20 kg backpack on the back, magazines on the chest and inside some tight corridors with a ~1m weapon during a firefight? Were you able to hit anything well the size of a human 50m away while on the move?

If yes - that would be really impressive, like really really impressive and you should join Tier1 operators IRL.

The thing is, BIS mocapped the animations for things like walking or crouching, but didn't record animations for going between every animation state.

This I agree with. BUT the solution of BF3 is far far worse because it isn't a solution at all (meaning stance changes in this case)

Do I say that there's no space for improvement? Of course not.

I just say that bringing something like BF3 as an example of how it should be done in a realistic shooter (or worse - hiding behind reality while giving BF3 is an example) is beyond ridiculous.

No, reacting with brain and body aren't the same, but soldiers are trained so that their brain and body react as closely as possible.

What about the dude sitting behind the monitor?

@metalcraze: No. I'll not go play it in BF3 because I want bullet drop... You said that BIS has monopoly. Well maybe it's time to take it further...

So why not ask for bulletdrop on DICE forum? I'm sure DICE would like to take it further too.

Edited December 20, 2011 by metalcraze

[dmarkwick 261]

Maps with natural choke points

My impression is what you recommend is artificial chokepoints

??? :)

How about what I say and not guessing what I think?

Indeed ;)

[metalcraze 290]

Cutting stuff out of context is bad mmkay.

Twisted said it like there are no natural chokepoints in BIS maps. So maybe his definition of "natural" is different to "using a real geodata for maps"?

[dmarkwick 261]

Cutting stuff out of context is bad mmkay.

Twisted said it like there are no natural chokepoints in BIS maps. So maybe his definition of "natural" is different to "using a real geodata for maps"?

Maybe, but your point remains: How about what I say and not guessing what I think?

This is aside from your assertion of his gameplaying activities based on one single sentence where he said he was confused. I myself might not agree with his recommendations of floating markers etc, but I don't need to make up stuff he did to do that. Just saying dude, argue as though he's a friend of yours.

Edited December 20, 2011 by DMarkwick

[Tonci87 163]

while your right on one side, the other side is that it would hurt nobody if they would release some mp modes & missions where the gameplay is a bit more focused on that. the reason why many people dont touch arma´s mp is cause they experience boredom and unorganized gameplay on public servers.

if there were more gamemodes/official missions with that chokepoints and clear targets, maybe also a bit smaller playable areas there wouldnt be a need to join clans and squads but still have fast and fun teamplay.

i hope we´l see more complex and fun official MP scenarios in Arma3. usermissions are great to have, but to be true, many of them are very bugged and not "easy to play"

That would be OK

[metalcraze 290]

And it was exactly about what twisted said.

I never said BIS animations were perfect. I even said quite the opposite before that post.

So you can stop using the famous politician's trick of trying to nitpick the opponent instead of making counter-arguments.

[[evo] dan 79]

If you want artifical chokepoints then you could always have a go at making a map yourself. Its not that hard after all and BIS supply all of the tools you need to do it for free. That way you can make them fit in with what you think a good map should be, and of course can use BIS buildings to build it. All you have to do it provide a new image for the ground and you can use visitor to make the terrain shaped the way you want it, with features that you want.

[dmarkwick 261]

So you can stop using the famous politician's trick of trying to nitpick the opponent instead of making counter-arguments.

I wasn't making counter-arguments, I was in fact addressing your method of counter arguments :)

Nit-picking the "opponent" is at least as bad as the famous politician's trick of making stuff up to lessen the opponents argument, wouldn't you say? :)

[Bee8190 10]

I see nothing wrong with missions like domi, insurgency etc. missions included in the package and being officialy made

Animations - yeah, as i can see ppl kinda like them but most agree it could be better / smoother

MP browser - IMO the more options the better plus bookmark your favorit server, invite friend ( xfire icons, skype or whateva )

Easyier tools to set up your own server with custom missions (non dedi, own PC )