SOPA - Internet as we know it about to be gone?

[mrcash2009 0]

What I find strange is people like the journalist and yourself who are concerned about privacy rights and are against spying using methods like these to justify your argument - touch hypocritical?

Nice projecting, unlike you I post for the sake of the topic subject and also tagged my post with: No matter what your take on this is, its an interesting "chat" none the less. I dont see it as a big deal as much as you seem to want to highlight it, you use many words that echo right back to you. Ive never suggested this was the best journalistic article in the world by any means, but it was on topic.

Your just guessing for YOUR 'argument', you have no "evidence" that this was secret apart from assuming it in your mind, and still ignored what I said about sensitive meetings and mobile phone bans, so your extremely poor attempts & doublethink are all things considered ... meaningless & unfounded in this case.

Edited July 7, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

The evidence it's a secret recording is here:

Someone else happened to record it on an iPhone, hence the audio quality. It’s been edited mainly to cut garbled audio or audio that wouldn’t have made sense and edit out questions and comments from people who didn’t explicitly say it was ok to post their audio.You’ll hear the sound drop out for a second to mark the cuts.

That means the people in the room were not asked for their consent, or we would hear the whole tape? Therefore it's a secret recording and an invasion of privacy and unethical, it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it's basic ethical journalism. How can you be concerned about privacy and be against spying and then use the same methods?

I don't see the relevance of the type of meeting or allowing mobile phones into the room. Are you saying that unless mobile phones are banned we should all expect to be recorded by the person sitting next to us? WTF does privacy, spying and the NSA matter if that's the case?

When I need to record meetings I put my phone/dictaphone on table and ask if anyone minds. If they do I use hand written notes for the minutes. That is the ethical way.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[Tonci87 163]

Ahh I see, you would like every postal and government worker who handles, reads or opens mail to work in full protective clothing every day? Gloves and a mask isn't enough, you need a sealed suit to prevent skin contamination. Contamination from previous attacks began at the mail box where the item was posted so you would need to start protection there. What about others? In the 2001 anthrax attack, 2 members of the public died who were not connected to the letters or contaminated buildings.

http://tribkcpq.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/ricin-letters-hazmat.jpg?w=150&h=107

And you think this is practical? Have you ever worn this type of equipment? Do you realise how uncomfortable it is? Doesn't protect anyone from letter bombs? You would need to quadruple the number of employees and have them working in shifts as it's impossible to wear this for an entire working day. Yet another bizarre and expensive idea. (you would still have to deal with $Billions in decontamination which you haven't covered, does money still not matter?). There are other numerous problems, and there is still no way of tracking the parcel and aprehending whoever posted it. I often make the comment that you and others here don't think things through, do you see why? Are you going to take some time and have a 3rd attempt at this? It's still not an alternative for the present system of scanning the outside of mail.

@Cash the proof is given in the reason for editing - the journalist/assistant (iPhone sounds like it's right under her nose doesn't it?) didn't ask consent of all those present and if it was given it could be declared or would be present on the tape. If 1 person declined to be recorded there would be no tape. It's spying on people and an invasion of privacy. It is described in journalism ethics as a "fishing expedition" and is considered highly unethical, more so if certain procedures are not followed as in this case. The editing could also be classed as misleading as it's unclear if the tape is a true and accurate account of what took place. It's a blog, you only have her word for this, there is no independent editorial oversight. In short - it stinks and isn't ethical.

What I find strange is people like the journalist and yourself who are concerned about privacy rights and are against spying using methods like these to justify your argument - touch hypocritical? Can you invade privacy and spy on people as long as you think you have the moral right lol?

Fact is no matter what you do you can´t prevent that somebody sends dangerous stuff per mail, you can only try to protect the receiver. And no you don´t need a full body suit to protect yourself, gloves are enough to secure you against skin contact (Unless you are stupid and rub it into your eyes).

But lets hear your opinion on this, how would you protect the people against such attacks.

[mrcash2009 0]

@ Mattar:

It’s been edited mainly to cut garbled audio or audio that wouldn’t have made sense and >>edit out<< questions and comments >> from << people who didn’t explicitly say it was ok to post their audio.

So they edited (hence why its "edited") out what they could not have, ironic that you made your own brain edit on the wording, proves nothing, apart from looking for something to prove a point that isnt. If this was what you say it would not be edited at all without any concern for anyone on the audio, posted on lowly blogs with "distribute before it taken down" or something like that and no news paper online would touch it or even embed link it, think it through.

I don't see the relevance of the type of meeting or allowing mobile phones into the room. Are you saying that unless mobile phones are banned we should all expect to be recorded by the person sitting next to us? WTF does privacy, spying and the NSA matter if that's the case?

Maybe thats becuase ... *drum roll* this meeting was open just like it shows ....

If you dont want the risk of any recording you take those measures in meetings then you have your justification to shut people down if they do (in the meeting or post meeting), standard practice in situations if its sensitive, but, as nothing has been done and it was in an article its because it wasn't "a secret" nor "sensitive" nor "spying" it speaks for itself.

Are you saying that unless mobile phones are banned we should all expect to be recorded by the person sitting next to us?

As its posed as a question, no. Thats an echo in your head, what I actually "wrote" (sensitive meetings scenario only) is posted over 2 pages to re read. Nice deflected waffle again.

Edited July 7, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Fact is no matter what you do you can´t prevent that somebody sends dangerous stuff per mail, you can only try to protect the receiver. And no you don´t need a full body suit to protect yourself, gloves are enough to secure you against skin contact (Unless you are stupid and rub it into your eyes).

But lets hear your opinion on this, how would you protect the people against such attacks.

Did you study much chemistry and biology at school? I did some toxicology at degree level that involved poisoning and pathogens so let me start by qualifying the above as utter nonsense. Gloves are no use on their own, after much testing, surprisingly it's been found that they only protect hands.

I would balance protection versus cost and practicability. Irradiate the mail to kill pathogens, x-ray / scan packages at sensitive sites to detect chemicals, radiological items and bombs. Most importantly don't let criminals abuse the postal system, photograph the mail so they are almost guaranteed to be caught, it creates a trail so the package can be tracked from where it was posted. Which is what they do. That last one is the best defence, people know they are likely to be caught so they stop and think about it before they do something stupid. It's the best you can do, removing that layered defence would mean an increase in incidents, dressing thousands of people in protective clothing every day isn't practical. No one would do the work. An increase in incidents would also mean $Billions in decontamination.

[Tonci87 163]

Did you study much chemistry and biology at school? I did some toxicology at degree level that involved poisoning and pathogens so let me start by qualifying the above as utter nonsense. Gloves are no use on their own, after much testing, surprisingly it's been found that they only protect hands.

I would balance protection versus cost and practicability. Irradiate the mail to kill pathogens, x-ray / scan packages at sensitive sites to detect chemicals, radiological items and bombs. Most importantly don't let criminals abuse the postal system, photograph the mail so they are almost guaranteed to be caught, it creates a trail so the package can be tracked from where it was posted. Which is what they do. That last one is the best defence, people know they are likely to be caught so they stop and think about it before they do something stupid. It's the best you can do, removing that layered defence would mean an increase in incidents, dressing thousands of people in protective clothing every day isn't practical. No one would do the work. An increase in incidents would also mean $Billions in decontamination.

So you are basically suggesting the same as I did. Wonderfull, it seems we agree that the postal service should scan/decontaminate the mail.

People aren´t going to get caught if they send the mail anonymously (well, apart from the stupid ones, but they always get caught), so this is no defense at all.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

No I'm saying they should keep on photographing the mail (4th line, 4th word) as it is the main deterrant as well as irradiation and special measures at sensitive sites, that is what they do now. You disagreed with the photography, didn't mention irradiation and to counter the increase in incidents you were going to dress the postal service and half the government support staff of the USA in full protective clothing every day and x-ray scan each item of mail. What they have is what I agree with and it's workable and cost effective, yours isn't. Do keep up.

People sending ricin anonymously in the mail do get caught, because, they photograph the mail. It's what happened last month??? Should I start drawing pictures?

Edited July 7, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[Tonci87 163]

No I'm saying they should keep on photographing the mail (4th line, 4th word) as it is the main deterrant as well as irradiation and special measures at sensitive sites, that is what they do now. You disagreed with the photography, didn't mention irradiation and to counter the increase in incidents you were going to dress the postal service and half the government support staff of the USA in full protective clothing every day and x-ray scan each item of mail. What they have is what I agree with and it's workable and cost effective, yours isn't. Do keep up.

People sending ricin anonymously in the mail do get caught, because, they photograph the mail. It's what happened last month??? Should I start drawing pictures?

The stupid ones get caught, you won´t catch the smart ones and it is not an effective deterrant. If you are stupid enough to use the same mailbox every time, then yes they can catch you, otherwise they won´t.

[mrcash2009 0]

To post for sake of the thread topics actual subject/related topic *cough* ..

Brazil expresses concern at report of NSA spying

http://www.thetimesherald.com/usatoday/article/2497161

A Brazilian newspaper has brought to surface fresh details on the U.S. global espionage activities.

http://edition.presstv.ir/TextOnly/detail.aspx?id=312732

The link times out on accasion so the text copy is in spoiler.

A Brazilian newspaper has brought to surface fresh details on the U.S. global espionage activities.

The Rio de Janeiro-based O Globo reported on Sunday that according to documents provided by American whistleblower Edward Snowden the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) monitored the telephone and email activity of Brazilian companies and individuals in the past decade.

(For the English translation of the article click here).

It says that the “U.S. spied on millions of emails and telephone calls of Brazilians.â€

The newspaper says in the past decade “people residing or in transit in Brazil, as well as companies operating in the country, have become targets of espionage by the NSA. There are no precise figures, but last January Brazil was just behind the United States, which had 2.3 billion phone calls and messages spied.â€

“It is uncertain how many people and companies spied in Brazil. But there is evidence that the volume of data captured by the filtering system in the local telephone networks and the Internet is constant and large scale.â€

Some access to Brazilian communications was obtained through American companies that were partners with Brazilian telecommunications companies, the paper reported. It has not named the companies.

The Brazilian government has demanded explanations from the U.S. Ambassador Thomas Shannon about Washington’s spying on its citizens.

According to Globo, besides Brazil, NSA was targeting China, Russia, Iran and Pakistan.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman has blamed Edward Snowden, the man who has blown the lid on Washington’s top-secret and massive spying programs, for hurting the U.S. relations with other countries.

“There has been damage. I don’t think we actually have been able to determine the depth of that damage,†Gen. Martin Dempsey told CNN.

The U.S. has charged Snowden with espionage and revoked his passport.

Relations between the U.S. and some of its key European allies have been damaged after Snowden revealed that the U.S. has bugged EU offices in Washington, New York and even in Brussels. He also exposed that America’s spying agencies monitor the phone calls and Internet data of millions of ordinary Europeans.

Washington has been trying to minimize the damage done by the espionage scandal while its close European allies such as France and Germany have expressed their disaffection over the monitoring of their diplomatic missions and EU offices.

Snowden, however, has accused Western governments of hypocrisy over the scandal. He has told the German magazine Der Spiegel that despite the protests that governments in the West are making against the U.S. surveillance, they are in fact colluding with the U.S. government to spy on their people. NSA agents are “in bed together with the Germans and most other Western states,†Snowden said.

According to Snowden other Western governments use information from the same NSA phone and Internet intelligence programs that some of their leaders are now protesting.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

The origin of that story is Glenn Greenwald the US lawyer and 'journalist' who broke the original NSA story and .... not coincidentally.... also lives in Brazil, original story:

http://translate.google.com.br/translate?sl=pt&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Foglobo.globo.com%2Fmundo%2Feua-espionaram-milhoes-de-mails-ligacoes-de-brasileiros-8940934&act=url

I suppose he has his reasons for overblowing the same story 1 country at a time?:

http://stopthedeportations.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/out-magazine-glenn-greenwald-pundit-in.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/business/media/anti-surveillance-activist-is-at-center-of-new-leak.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.osborneink.com/2013/06/snowden-flakes-russian-and-chinese-spies-are-smarter-than-glenn-greenwald.html

Additional: NSA executive appears before house panel to address allegations, full video:

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/AgencyOp

Edited July 8, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mrcash2009 0]

Fun and smear games Mattar, fun and games :) . As if leaking and whistle blowing is not going to be attacked ... usual fall out.

NSA exec tells you everything needed to be known, as if he's going to come forthe and admit anything other than the partly line, his position might have something to do with that, nothing unexpected what so ever, watched that already. "Terror" "threats" "safety" "since 9/11" rinse & repeat.

I find it amazing how demozing seems to have one fixed route and yet its plain to see blind trust without question is working perfectly for such processes to be installed & expanded upon.

Edited July 8, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

The origin of that story is Glenn Greenwald the US lawyer and 'journalist' who broke the original NSA story and .... not coincidentally.... also lives in Brazil, original story:

http://translate.google.com.br/translate?sl=pt&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Foglobo.globo.com%2Fmundo%2Feua-espionaram-milhoes-de-mails-ligacoes-de-brasileiros-8940934&act=url

I suppose he has his reasons for overblowing the same story 1 country at a time?:

http://stopthedeportations.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/out-magazine-glenn-greenwald-pundit-in.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/business/media/anti-surveillance-activist-is-at-center-of-new-leak.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.osborneink.com/2013/06/snowden-flakes-russian-and-chinese-spies-are-smarter-than-glenn-greenwald.html

Additional: NSA executive appears before house panel to address allegations, full video:

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/AgencyOp

Well if you look at the links above there are obvious doubts about Greenwald's objectivity. It's that journalism ethics thing again.

He no longer lives in the USA because his partner couldn't emmigrate there and spends much of his time justifying terror attacks against the west. He thinks the Boston Bombings and the execution of Drummer Lee Rigby were justified. So does he have an anti US bias because of problems in his personal life? Does that make him more likely to tell the factual truth or not? There are already questions about the accuracy of his reporting in all this - it's not smearing at all, if you look at his tweets, it's a thinly disguised hatred. Where did that originate and why does he feel that way?

Take this:

Take “direct access:†no two words lent the story as much oxygen as these. Yet they turn out to mean something very different from what Greenwald insinuated at the beginning. The charge that the NSA enjoys “direct access†to the servers of major tech firms has been walked back by the Washington Post and Greenwald’s own publication [Guardian], but he has yet to issue any kind of correction. Instead, Greenwald has never adequately explained the technical elements of this explosive charge, has refused even friendly requests to elucidate, and now wants everyone to forget he ever said anything about it.

He has portrayed Snowden as a whistle blower but then admits to working with him before he went to work at Booz Allen. So did Snowden apply for a job purposely to leak information, why was it never mentioned he was only there for 4 weeks?

Edited July 8, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mrcash2009 0]

and spends much of his time justifying terror attacks against the west. He thinks the Boston Bombings and the execution of Drummer Lee Rigby were justified.

As that's simply your take on it, could you please post exactly where you came to this conclusion IE his words and links to it, im not saying your wrong I just would like to see it for myself to ponder over.

I do love your selective ethics mantra, keep it narrow and focused, deflect from the main focus etc.

Where did that originate and why does he feel that way?

Tweet him and ask, I cant speak on his behalf.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald

Edited July 8, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I can't link to them because of the images? Content may not be suitable. Search and ye shall find - it's upset many people. See what Andrew Sullivan has to say about it on May 24th. Journalism ethics and standards are an important feature of this, particularly concerning objectivity, accuracy and conflict of interest.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[nodunit 397]

Forum rules regarding explicit images or other content do not apply to PM's.

[mrcash2009 0]

True indeed, or at least post the copy of the statements made with the paper/article name and not the link and PM me the links. I would search but as you made the statements and you ask everyone else here to back or prove things then it really wouldn't be very sporting to not post via those other avenues & I am genuinely interested, all sides of the story and all that.

ethics and standards are an important feature of this, particularly concerning objectivity, accuracy and conflict of interest.

That works both ways even when "journalist" attack others, and still smokescreens the information that's the most important (of which includes them), hes the go between and not the man who was from the NSA that actually had the information, if you want to character assassinate someone surely it should be him, they have both risked everything to do what they did, just out of a grievance based on partner not getting into us!? I think there's more to it than that, which has spoken for itself with the information. Im not interested in the soap opera im interested in the details from the reason this soap opera swung into action.

Another areas moving on:

End of chip and Pin? Shoppers test payment by fingerprint

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/banking/10166776/End-of-chip-and-Pin-Shoppers-test-payment-by-fingerprint.html

Posting for thread ref, laughed at not many years ago as conspiracy theory big brother horeshit at one time, I know, I had the conversations about it back then. I though fingerprint was for hi level clearance or criminal proceedings. It will be interesting to see if Verizon and other companies roll this out based on their prims links.

Edited July 9, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I'm not getting into a PM debate - 1 line of nonsense is enough. If I have proved 1 thing over the past year it's that some people here can't use a search engine to check what they post. Greenwald's legitimisation of the Lee Rigby killing and the Boston Bombings is well known and sparked responses from many respected writers and journalists, search and ye shall find. Back on topic - It also looks like Greenwald and the Guardian can't check what they write either:

Greenwald Stands By His NSA Reporting in Spite of Growing Questions

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/06/greenwald-sticks-with-his-story-in-spite-of-growing-questions/

NSA story demonstrates why the media is in trouble

http://immasmartypants.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/nsa-story-demonstrating-why-media-is-in.html

The Guardian quietly walks back their PRISM overreach without correcting previous reporting

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/42121_The_Guardian_quietly_walks_back_their_PRISM_overreach_without_correcting_previous_reporting

5 ways NSA leaker Edward Snowden's story isn't holding up

http://theweek.com/article/index/245492/5-ways-nsa-leaker-edward-snowdens-story-isnt-holding-up

I am not the only one who has noticed that Greenwald writes stories to fit his agenda, when you check the accuracy and the facts they fall down badly. This is why I keep raising the issue of journalism ethics and standards. You will notice that this story is being quietly dropped. I refer you back to what I said at the start - there is nothing new here.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mrcash2009 0]

All your links are blogs and other fringe blogs also, wheres your balance with their "motivations" ... ever asked why they want to attack and not actually focus on PRISM and the main subject? You want to get caught up in the circus be my guest, it doesn't alter the information and certainly doesn't effect what's happening in the tech world and centralising of legislation of what this thread started out as, its all smoke screen dead ends to deflect the information.

Hes not the main guy that worked for NSA and had the leaked information either so its not the focus. Unless of course this is all an elaborate stunt to further justify clamping down on anyone actually trying this ... now that would be juicy :)

You dont need to get in a MP debate, post the direct statements by that journalist as the copy only here (you can google from the copy to get the links), and or PM a link, I wont go off into PM's debate about it after I can promise you that.

If I have proved 1 thing over the past year it's that some people here can't use a search engine to check what they post.

You posted the statement without a link no one else did. Dont do as other do and practice what your preach as I was always told. Also you haven't been logged into this forum for 1 year either, is that you Pelham? :) :p

Edited July 9, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

3rd time you asked that what's/who's Pelham?

I can't win, if I post links to well established news, it's the NWO/Zionist controlled media singing the NSA/CIA party line. Blogs that link to those media outlets are "fringe blogs". Yet anything Greenwald and Snowden say (that's 2 people) becomes fact and is unquestionable. Any scrutiny is described as a smear despite Greenwalds history of pursuing an agenda. The problems with Greenwald didn't start with the NSA story, it began months before he worked at the Guardian, so no it isn't a smear campaign. It's just accuracy and fact checking. The Guardian itself has walked back and acknowledged FISA controls.

Once you start looking at the technical details the story starts falling apart, it's simply intelligent people asking questions as they believe in the principle of Nullius in verba.

I'm not sending PM's - use a search engine. It's Greenwald's column within the 1st 5 pages, if you can't find it, that would explain why I am always so busy here, some can't find their ass with both hands even if I paint a target on it for them. Please don't accuse me of double standards - you have not provided a single link to support your position on this entire page. I have provided 10, so FO.

If you want to know who and how they benefit, think: book deals, interviews, conferences, donations from the fringe, radio and television, some people make a fortune from scams like this eg: Galloway, makes a living telling outrageous fibs and gets caught all the time.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mrcash2009 0]

I can't win, if I post links to well established news, it's the NWO/Zionist controlled media singing the NSA/CIA party line. Blogs that link to those media outlets are "fringe blogs". Yet anything Greenwald and Snowden say (that's 2 people) becomes fact and is unquestionable.

First of all, no one wins anything as its supposed to be a debate. Second of all you now have a flavour of how you come across in threads, the same applies to both sides, there is no absolutes and solid foundations. If they are both bullshitters and all this information is false and lies then Im happy to accept it. Seeing as this thread, technology, all signs show that none of it is absolute fiction outright then it has its place. And even more interesting, if they are bullshitters and have an agenda you might want to pose the question, who do they work for and who benefits from this happening (I feel similar to "Anonymous" groups for example).

The bigger and more truthful the leak the bigger the reaction, focus on the reactions that tells a story in itself.

So far the information that has come to light has only one defence, "no we dont do that" .. yet it exists and technology is getting more powerful and daily tech is being centralised so that's the proof in a nutshell without being told what to think, along with legislation such as this threads topic, they are the signs.

Its a game, disinformation, you name it, all the tricks will be pulled now, its fun times.

I'm not sending PM's - use a search engine.

Post the copy only of the statements that got people riled up, you post in this thread for people to back up claims so back up your "claims" ... (oh look I sound just like you) :) If you dont want too fair enough, but again, dont ask it of others and poo poo them if they dont feel the need. One rule for one is also a good yardstick on whether to apply trust.

Edited July 9, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Tonci87 163]

Hey wan´t some irony?

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

Geez, looks like something from the cold war or from N-Korea,but nope its the so-called free World!, I only wonder when we get to see sings like this one in europe.

but hey' its all for your safety,like stated in nr-3, but not for your freedom! State telling the ppl how,when and where you celebrate and when its over.

nice find Tonci87.

[[aps]gnat 28]

Public Safety can (and should) come before any one persons "freedom".

But beware of course the overuse of the statement ".... for reasons of public safety ...." ;)

And "in the Public Interest" is a whole different thing altogether !!

[mrcash2009 0]

Point number 3 & the "notice" on that list is the one to have issue with the most over all the others, nicely slotted in with a mix of justified (ish) reasons. I would have seen those two points and gone elswehere but, I hate to come off like a pretend moderator, thats a bit "US politics thread" than this thread :)

Edited July 10, 2013 by mrcash2009

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

It's an important worldwide problem though Cash - probably deserves it own thread, take a look at this! I think Adolf Hitler escaped at the end of WW2 and is now running German parks! Sieg parkordenung!:

http://www.golm-portal.de/images/2009golmparkordnungtable100.jpg

http://ais.badische-zeitung.de/piece/03/a4/80/d0/61112528.jpg

http://www.surfstoff.de/wherigo/gifs/gartenordnung.jpg

http://blog.klausenerplatz-kiez.de/images/schlosspark_parkordnung1_112007.jpg

No drunks, No music, No Dogs, No sitting in chairs, No camping, No pic-nics, No BBQs!

(Unless Tonci was just trolling and derailing the thread, being an ex-moderator(not here) I'm sure that couldn't be so?)

Edited July 10, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari